Plasmafogking

Please, no advantage for $$$

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Crowfall was setup not to be p2w on zero import campaigns, I don't even think they will have zero import campaigns anymore.  They've really gone carebear on spirit banks and projected embargo systems.

Searching an unknown map to meet up with you friends, starting with no equipment in a dangerous zero import ffa campaign.  That used to be a possible scenario in the advertised CF, now it seems very unlikely any campaign will be like this.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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7 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Crowfall was setup not to be p2w on zero import campaigns, I don't even think they will have zero import campaigns anymore.  They've really gone carebear on spirit banks and projected embargo systems.

Searching an unknown map to meet up with you friends, starting with no equipment in a dangerous zero import ffa campaign.  That used to be a possible scenario in the advertised CF, now it seems very unlikely any campaign will be like this.

I don't have any doubt that we are going to get zero import campaigns--if for no other reason than it would be no-brainer, probably easy to implement way to add divers campaign types.  The question is, though, will they draw enough players to remain a campaign type as the game evolves?  I'd say probably, but we'll have to see what other rulesets ACE has planned. 

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14 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Crowfall was setup not to be p2w on zero import campaigns, I don't even think they will have zero import campaigns anymore.  They've really gone carebear on spirit banks and projected embargo systems.

Searching an unknown map to meet up with you friends, starting with no equipment in a dangerous zero import ffa campaign.  That used to be a possible scenario in the advertised CF, now it seems very unlikely any campaign will be like this.

Why do you think they're abandoning zero import campaigns? I really hope they're still planning this. I really liked this idea. =(

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The difference between many of the P2W nightmares that have been discussed is that many of their cash shops were unlimited, the beauty of the CF cash grab is that the "advantage" part is limited to $15 a month. No you can't buy the uber sword of doom and dominate, nor can you buy the shroud of anonymity to conceal your name while providing bonus xp. Yes you can drop $15K go build the castle of your dreams in your personal EK, but that has no bearing on game at large as it relates to campaign worlds.

$15 that is it. It is an amount that should be attainable for anyone who has a computer that is well equipped enough to run the game in the first place not to mention that ungodly ISP bill that comes every month. That $15 ensures the continued life of the game.

Lets also not forget that the lovechild of all NON-P2W proponents, PoE, is pretty damn inconvenient if you dont decide to pull out your wallet and pay for that expanded inventory or resource stacking tabs. Just because it is possible to play for free does not mean you can do so at an efficient level, which oddly enough is pretty similar to what CF is offering. 

Edited by Verot

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On 1/13/2018 at 7:57 PM, entityofsin said:

Anyone with enough experience playing a large variety of MMOs know that games with cash shops that go down a path where you purchase in game character strength ultimately burn their players quickly and institute a stage left exit from the game.

If ACE does start putting that kind of stuff in the cash shop, you'll see this game with a fraction of it's player population. I am making an assumption here but I don't think a lot of people play MMOs to be faced with a game that's essentially financial warfare between players on who has a larger bank account and better paying job.

But I get what you're saying as you do me. It's just a wait and see sort of thing. Gonna be a lot of angry people with pitch forks and torches ready to burn ACE to the ground if they do.

Despite the pitch forks in the ready, every game listed in this thread and others is likely still around. Maybe not as popular as they might be or could be, but around all the same.

Which is why the "if they go P2W the game will die" view doesn't work. We as individuals might see it as dead and move on, others won't.

Just sucks having to wait to see which group will be playing and which won't.

On 1/13/2018 at 9:29 PM, ArcJurado said:

Purchased items being able to be traded is helpful though, even if there is the possibility of some level of abuse.  If things like VIP couldn't be traded then people who don't have the means or desire to pay cash would have no access to it.  In this way there's nothing that can't be gained by just playing the game, there's nothing that is exclusively locked behind cash with no other alternatives.  To me having things locked being cash with absolutely no alternatives is more P2W than being able to trade it.

Is it possible that someone could trade it to someone else for help in a battle or high tier equipment?  Yeah it's possible but I don't think the possibility of that scenario happening is worth denying people alternate options for obtaining VIP or purchased items.  

They could offer a system that other games do where players can earn shop currency or items through in-game means without any trading or potential for abuse through cash involvement.

While I do understand that people want to game and things in games, their vanity shouldn't cause the overall competitive nature of a competitive game to be less.

There are many options and they chose one that results in more cash for them and more issues for those looking for a non-cash influenced playing field.

12 hours ago, Verot said:

The difference between many of the P2W nightmares that have been discussed is that many of their cash shops were unlimited, the beauty of the CF cash grab is that the "advantage" part is limited to $15 a month. No you can't buy the uber sword of doom and dominate, nor can you buy the shroud of anonymity to conceal your name while providing bonus xp. Yes you can drop $15K go build the castle of your dreams in your personal EK, but that has no bearing on game at large as it relates to campaign worlds.

What about buying X from the store and trading it for Y in-game that can be used in CW?

Assuming this will be possible, but don't see anything in black and white stating otherwise.

They have mounts, pack animals, relics already which can be used in or impact CW. They could add other things as well obviously.

Some of the KS and later rewards provide CW advantages as well.

VIP is $15, but is for trade and not the only thing in the store.

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On 1/13/2018 at 2:18 PM, Plasmafogking said:

How does buying gold effects GW2 BG pvp where gear does not matter? There is literally no power in paying in there.


Do i also have to point out that games dropping subscription model improve greatly? Just look at ESO.

And based on your arguments you should be able to buy god mode in here and one-shot anyone who paid less than you. Now actually a better solution, is it? Oh wait, did you just now got an idea that you are allowed to make strawmen and i don't?

Also, what do you mean by "are no longer alive"? ESO pulling higher player count that WOW.

Games you've mentioned do offer varying degrees of convenience/advantage through cash. If you see it as "unfair" or not is not up to me. 

Your initial post said that CF should ONLY offer cosmetics. No advantage or convenience. Show me a game that does that, hopefully something remotely similar to CF.

Almost all of these offer very obvious advantage/convenience. While you might be able to earn the same in-game, if the shop offers it, that is a cash short cut and advantage.

For the most part, these don't compare to what CF hopefully becomes, but if you are going to list them, might as well point out what they actually offer...

GW2 sPVP is lobby/arena PVP in a safe environment with access to everything. This is basically a 2nd game mode. WvWvW more comparable to CF is influenced by levels, gear, training, whatever or at least was when I played it. Shop might not make someone into god mode but doesn't slow anyone down either.

What does dropping a sub have to do with a game improving. Devs aren't able to improve a sub based game? Their code doesn't work when $15 is required by customers? You might be missing the bigger picture.

I'm anti P2W/advantage/convenience. However, I believe a sub based game could work. Sub required or optional without advantage along with shops without advantage are what I would like. ACE isn't doing that but I'm willing to see how it turns out. IMO, many games have had to change models because they simply weren't worth people's time/money, player habits have changed, market saturated, etc. Anything can work if done well, unfortunately "well" might be out of reach.

I wasn't making a straw man. You said you like XYZ games and how they do it, which are F2P/B2P with optional subs and shops. Most providing convenience/advantage that you said CF must not have...

I might like the idea of a game being able to run on subs and optional cosmetics, but realize subs are hard to pull off and cosmetics don't really do it by themselves. Advantage/convenience are just too easy for devs/companies to embrace.

ESO is a live. I was responding to your hyperbolic view that games like BDO/AA are "dead." They are still running last I checked. Maybe not up to your expectations, but they aren't dead. As your own list points out, games can have convenience/advantage and be very much a live.

The view that CF will "die" if it continues as is or whatever is simply your view without any evidence. I don't believe it will excel because of the pay model, but killing it off will take a bit of effort on ACE's part to really not produce something anyone wants to play.

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I think p2w wouldn't be bad actually as long as they also have non p2w options.  

Some whales will spend a ridiculous amount of money to compensate for skill and there's no reason to push those players away if there are enough people that want to play in an uncle bob environment.

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6 hours ago, APE said:

What about buying X from the store and trading it for Y in-game that can be used in CW?

Assuming this will be possible, but don't see anything in black and white stating otherwise.

They have mounts, pack animals, relics already which can be used in or impact CW. They could add other things as well obviously.

Some of the KS and later rewards provide CW advantages as well.

VIP is $15, but is for trade and not the only thing in the store.

Possible, but still limited to a certain degree by the very nature of the campaign world being destroyed after a couple of months. Its one thing to trade real life money for items/resources that have some form of permanence to them, its another thing to continually flush that money every couple of months. The other issue is that there are no "safe place" in which to bulk trade resources. The mass of resources at some point has to be transferred/transported to the buyer's desired location which means those resources are at risk. Again, its all still very possible but without centralized banking and safe trade zones it puts a much greater risk on trying to perform these types of transactions.

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1 hour ago, Verot said:

Possible, but still limited to a certain degree by the very nature of the campaign world being destroyed after a couple of months. Its one thing to trade real life money for items/resources that have some form of permanence to them, its another thing to continually flush that money every couple of months. The other issue is that there are no "safe place" in which to bulk trade resources. The mass of resources at some point has to be transferred/transported to the buyer's desired location which means those resources are at risk. Again, its all still very possible but without centralized banking and safe trade zones it puts a much greater risk on trying to perform these types of transactions.

The resources being at risk is going to be a working as intended design when caravans and mounts get put into the game. If I trade you 1 month of VIP for 200 Iron ore but someone comes along and takes one of us out and steals half the trade deal, then that's 100% perfectly fine. Crowfall doesn't need centralized banking or safe trade zones. If you want to move large quantities of resources then do so with a group and at the risk of everyone in that group dying to better players or a larger group.

It's one of the things that Albion Online does well. There are people in that game that do resource runs and there are people in that game that hunt those groups down. It's even explained in one of their very early on trailers for the game. Being a bandit and attacking caravans will be a real thing in Crowfall. It's going to be exciting!

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On 1/16/2018 at 6:48 AM, Verot said:

Possible, but still limited to a certain degree by the very nature of the campaign world being destroyed after a couple of months. Its one thing to trade real life money for items/resources that have some form of permanence to them, its another thing to continually flush that money every couple of months. The other issue is that there are no "safe place" in which to bulk trade resources. The mass of resources at some point has to be transferred/transported to the buyer's desired location which means those resources are at risk. Again, its all still very possible but without centralized banking and safe trade zones it puts a much greater risk on trying to perform these types of transactions.

Much is guessing at this point as we don't have a near final model of what will be happening. They seem to be easing up on import/export/embargo type stuff so moving resources in/out of CW to EK might not be terribly difficult or risky for some. Also how they do "beachheads" and "safe" areas in CWs might make for trade areas. No real idea though.

While I personally won't drop tons of cash to win a video game, some have no issue doing so, risk and all. Winning in of itself is the reward for many I assume, the virtual goods trading hands and being bought for cash are simply a means.

Trusted Traders are also approved to do item for item trading. They could become a sort of "auction house" if they some how have different options than the rest of us. Still don't understand how this might work.

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