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Plasmafogking

Please, no advantage for $$$

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3 hours ago, Kastor said:

Hey I'd just like to interject with my key gripe with the VIP system and how their "Breadth not Depth" motto is pure spin. Firstly is worth noting that having more choices almost always amounts to having more power. For example the ability to choose fighter or confessor rather than be locked into one or the other will always give you a bit more power in a multiplayer game, especially as is the wheels of re-balancing push the in and out of favor.

Now most F2P games will typically give you between 50% and 100% more character/vehicle/gun/deck slots if you buy vip. TYPICALLY, yes I know there are a few games that have more in the order of 5 times as many character slots.

We don't have character slots in crow fall anymore, instead we have the breadth of class and race training. I argue that your "character slots" would now effectively be how many different race/class combos you have training in.

On average a late game VIP player has THREE TO FOUR times as many max trained unique race/class combos. That is a lot of extra versatility. That VIP player has much more resistance to meta shifts, bad match ups and bad team comps.

And sure, a cashless player can trade his in game work for VIP using in game currency... but wasn't the entire point of having a passive skill system to AVOID grinding for skill points. "Some people have more time than money, some people have more money than time, we cater to both" That's the microtransaction motto right? I like how they neglect the fact that most people have very little of both. Most people are working full time and only just covering the groceries.

Been trying to explain to people a long time a similar concept, but the people here don't have any real competitive pvp experience so they don't see it.

If you give someone rock paper and scissors, and you give a player that pays less only rock.  The player with rock paper scissors has a gigantic advantage and in essence has more power to succeed.


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11 hours ago, Kastor said:

Hey I'd just like to interject with my key gripe with the VIP system and how their "Breadth not Depth" motto is pure spin. Firstly is worth noting that having more choices almost always amounts to having more power. For example the ability to choose fighter or confessor rather than be locked into one or the other will always give you a bit more power in a multiplayer game, especially as is the wheels of re-balancing push the in and out of favor.

Now most F2P games will typically give you between 50% and 100% more character/vehicle/gun/deck slots if you buy vip. TYPICALLY, yes I know there are a few games that have more in the order of 5 times as many character slots.

We don't have character slots in crow fall anymore, instead we have the breadth of class and race training. I argue that your "character slots" would now effectively be how many different race/class combos you have training in.

On average a late game VIP player has THREE TO FOUR times as many max trained unique race/class combos. That is a lot of extra versatility. That VIP player has much more resistance to meta shifts, bad match ups and bad team comps.

And sure, a cashless player can trade his in game work for VIP using in game currency... but wasn't the entire point of having a passive skill system to AVOID grinding for skill points. "Some people have more time than money, some people have more money than time, we cater to both" That's the microtransaction motto right? I like how they neglect the fact that most people have very little of both. Most people are working full time and only just covering the groceries.

Here's the thing with the monetization model for Crowfall. People will complain if it's a subscription model. People will continue to complain if it remains the way it is. If it's just B2P then there needs to be a constant stream of new sales each week from new account purchases, expansion pack releases, DLC, etc or ACE closes up shop. People will then complain about that if that's the direction that ACE decides to take.

So you want to pay $10-15 a month? Want micro transactions instead? Want it to just be Buy 2 Play with a huge financial risk attached to ACE's future more so than the first two options? All VIP does is allow you to train an extra slot in each training category. That's it.

Also, if you have very little time and your finances barely cover your living expenses, then your priorities need to be in places other than Crowfall. That isn't to sound heartless, it's a reality of life.


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6 hours ago, entityofsin said:

 All VIP does is allow you to train an extra slot in each training category. That's it.

Also, if you have very little time and your finances barely cover your living expenses, then your priorities need to be in places other than Crowfall. That isn't to sound heartless, it's a reality of life.

"All VIP does" doubling total skill gain is not some minor thing. It's massive. Sure you can't train both in the same tree but in what game have you ever just trained the same skill tree for the entire game?

As for you final comment "heartless" is not the word I would use, the words I would use would get me warnings or a ban. Many people can't just work their way out of minmum wage, so your solution is that they just don't play games they like for their entire life? What of people with a debilitating sickness, what of people who live in countries with weak currency, I guess the don't deserve fun either.

Yes crowfall needs money to survive, but the current model's vip is far more powerful than it is in many other F2Ps

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4 minutes ago, Kastor said:

"All VIP does" doubling total skill gain is not some minor thing. It's massive. Sure you can't train both in the same tree but in what game have you ever just trained the same skill tree for the entire game?

You realize you can't benefit from training in multiple classes or races at the same time, right?


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39 minutes ago, Kastor said:

Many people can't just work their way out of minmum wage, so your solution is that they just don't play games they like for their entire life? What of people with a debilitating sickness, what of people who live in countries with weak currency, I guess the don't deserve fun either.

 

That is probably the weakest argument I can imagine.  What about people with no hands, or the blind, or with no access to computers? Maybe we should drop ship them some decent high end PC's, solar panels, and a few buck for an ISP so they have have a decent enough box and connection to play the game. Heck, maybe we should roll back the graphics a couple of dozen notches so a 486 can run it because that's all they have.

If they can afford the box, ISP, the high end bandwidth with decent ping, and the electricity to power it all, and still somehow can't afford but really really really want VIP, they certainly can figure out a way to trade other players for it, or even beg from guild mates a bit.

Keep your BS social justice warrioring out of my games space thank you very much.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, Kastor said:

"All VIP does" doubling total skill gain is not some minor thing. It's massive. Sure you can't train both in the same tree but in what game have you ever just trained the same skill tree for the entire game?

As for you final comment "heartless" is not the word I would use, the words I would use would get me warnings or a ban. Many people can't just work their way out of minmum wage, so your solution is that they just don't play games they like for their entire life? What of people with a debilitating sickness, what of people who live in countries with weak currency, I guess the don't deserve fun either.

Yes crowfall needs money to survive, but the current model's vip is far more powerful than it is in many other F2Ps

I'd guess the Kickstart produced some 10 years of VIP to packages so people might be giving them away at the first month for stuff.

If I couldn't get out of a minimum wage job then I'd probably be working 2 or more jobs to cover living expenses. If that were the case then I doubt I'd have time to play games.

I can't comment on countries with weak currency but generally those places have different prices to reflect the local region. If VIP is 10$ USD then zimbabwe might have it for 1$ or a few cents.


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8 hours ago, entityofsin said:

Here's the thing with the monetization model for Crowfall. People will complain if it's a subscription model. People will continue to complain if it remains the way it is. If it's just B2P then there needs to be a constant stream of new sales each week from new account purchases, expansion pack releases, DLC, etc or ACE closes up shop. People will then complain about that if that's the direction that ACE decides to take.

So you want to pay $10-15 a month? Want micro transactions instead? Want it to just be Buy 2 Play with a huge financial risk attached to ACE's future more so than the first two options? All VIP does is allow you to train an extra slot in each training category. That's it.

True people will complain about everything, but each option has different pros/cons with varying degrees of "fairness" sprinkled in.

On the scale of everyone is relatively equal to cash provides advantage, ACE appears to be leaning towards the cash. Which is their choice and people will deal or not.

I really don't see many (any?) saying they believe their choice is the best route, but rather "they need to do it to survive." Which to me speaks more about the company, product, and faith people have in both. Or they don't appear to see why VIP/shop advantages will matter and that's something I can't make others understand.

Maybe they are being preventative and avoiding being another B2P/Sub gone F2P/shop, but it will definitely draw a line in the sand for those wise enough to look into things before buying in.

No system is perfect, but ACE's choice doesn't appear to be in favor of those looking for a relatively fair competitive game. Not that any game can be fair on all levels, but companies don't have to throw their hands up before even trying to go a different route.

As you mentioned, ACE is the one taking the risk. Players will either embrace their choices or not. Some of us might be out some cash and time, but ACE and those putting their name on the title have a lot more at stake.

VIP does allow one to train more and that is a big deal for some. If you don't see why, that's fine, but anyone that has played multi-class competitive games likely sees the value. Will training actually matter and in turn provide VIP value is the question I have.

2 hours ago, Jah said:

You realize you can't benefit from training in multiple classes or races at the same time, right?

Then what value does VIP provide?

Edited by APE

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1 hour ago, APE said:

Then what value does VIP provide?

Flexibility in class/race combo, and increased self sufficiency as a harvester/crafter. 

That's all.

 

Sure, that can be a pretty distinct advantage when the game meta changes; but in battle VIP means nothing.

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

You realize you can't benefit from training in multiple classes or races at the same time, right?

Are any of you seriously considering picking one pair of races and one pair of classes and playing those two options the entire game? A prospect made even more boring by the fact that that pair of races/classes are going to be super similar to each other due to the "group alike" approach they took to splitting them, but that's another argument.

No? Then double skill training will still have a massive positive impact on your gameplay.

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2 minutes ago, Kastor said:

Are any of you seriously considering picking one pair of races and one pair of classes and playing those two options the entire game? A prospect made even more boring by the fact that that pair of races/classes are going to be super similar to each other due to the "group alike" approach they took to splitting them, but that's another argument.

No? Then double skill training will still have a massive positive impact on your gameplay.

double skill training will broaden the options but not make an account stronger.  It would be like CF had 3 character slots, kickstarter packages increased that to 6, then removed them because of some changes then allowed VIP to dual train as a replacement for said loss of character slots.

We don't know the cost of VIP. It could be 5$, it could be 15$ or it could 10$, we just don't know.  VIP is a tradable and lootable item, it's possible to trade items and/or services for VIP, while it's possible to loot them from a corpse. People are acting as though it's a cash only item. Yes there are concerns.

I counted all of the maximum possible VIP existing as of the Kickstarter, and packages were sold via paypal--not included, in which there are 97,885 VIP in account holder hands.  I'm pretty sure people will be handing these suckers out like candy at halloween for the first year. that amount of VIP is equal to 8,157 years of VIP! That's a value of 489k (at 5$), 978k (at 10$), 1.46m (at 15$). Again, this isn't counting PayPal pledges via the website!


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2 hours ago, jetah said:

If I couldn't get out of a minimum wage job then I'd probably be working 2 or more jobs to cover living expenses. If that were the case then I doubt I'd have time to play games.

I guess I made that point badly, I was kinda angry at the time. I can make this argument from a success of the game standpoint instead.

Player base is paramount, income from each individual player is secondary. I mean if your choice is increase the playerbase by 10% or increase the income per player by 10% then you should really go for the bigger playerbase as that will make players happier with the game, giving you goodwill that will then lead to more future income.

There exists a very large group of people that have little time and money but still want to play games. Low income earners, parents, students, children (the ones that actually do homework, the rest have plenty of time). By forcing a player to spend large amount of money or time to make real progress then you lock these people out of your game. Indeed one big benefits of crowfall is that passive training is a serious draw to these people as they can advance without grinding, except it's that very same passive training that would lure them in that we are hurting with our VIP system.

We could be one of the very few MMOs that work for such low resource people due to our passive training, that's a niche market that we could have a big boon for our playerbase.
 

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7 minutes ago, jetah said:

double skill training will broaden the options but not make an account stronger.  It would be like CF had 3 character slots, kickstarter packages increased that to 6, then removed them because of some changes then allowed VIP to dual train as a replacement for said loss of character slots.

Typically in RPG you can only train one of those three characters at a time regardless of whether or not you have VIP. I can't think of any RPG which says "If you have VIP then all your characters gain full XP at once when you do things.", which is effectively what's happening here.

Edited by Kastor

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9 minutes ago, Kastor said:

Typically in RPG you can only train one of those three characters at a time regardless of whether or not you have VIP. I can't think of any RPG which says "If you have VIP then all your characters gain full XP at once when you do things.", which is effectively what's happening here.

Eve Online allows you to multi-train up to 3 characters on the account and it cost extra for the second and third. Eve and CF are the only two games I know with passive style training.

 

14 minutes ago, Kastor said:

I guess I made that point badly, I was kinda angry at the time. I can make this argument from a success of the game standpoint instead.

Player base is paramount, income from each individual player is secondary. I mean if your choice is increase the playerbase by 10% or increase the income per player by 10% then you should really go for the bigger playerbase as that will make players happier with the game, giving you goodwill that will then lead to more future income.

There exists a very large group of people that have little time and money but still want to play games. Low income earners, parents, students, children (the ones that actually do homework, the rest have plenty of time). By forcing a player to spend large amount of money or time to make real progress then you lock these people out of your game. Indeed one big benefits of crowfall is that passive training is a serious draw to these people as they can advance without grinding, except it's that very same passive training that would lure them in that we are hurting with our VIP system.

We could be one of the very few MMOs that work for such low resource people due to our passive training, that's a niche market that we could have a big boon for our playerbase.
 

With what I hear on my non-profit radio station, 1 out of 20 people actually donate. I wouldn't be surprised if 1 out of 20 pay more than is required to play a game. The best I've seen is WoW that allows a player to amass gold and turn that gold into subscription time OR store credit. I personally would love to see ACE do this with CF. Eve Online allows trading PLEX. Another game is Warframe, a F2P game that allows free players to trade certain items for Silver, the cash shop currency. This allows a free player to have access to 99% of the cash shop. The market is alive and people with Silver don't want to farm so they buy, people with time don't have Silver so they sell. Both sides are happy!

ACE wants people that will pay for VIP. That allows them to pay the employees which gives us new races, classes, environments, visual houses, visual mounts, etc. Without people spending money the game will die. Again I'd love to see ACE allow VIP to be consumed for Crowns so that everyone has access to the store but I'm not sure if they'll do that.

 

 

Edited by jetah

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1 hour ago, jetah said:

We don't know the cost of VIP. It could be 5$, it could be 15$ or it could 10$, we just don't know.  VIP is a tradable and lootable item, it's possible to trade items and/or services for VIP, while it's possible to loot them from a corpse. People are acting as though it's a cash only item. Yes there are concerns.

VIP is $15 per month, and is available in the shop right now for you to check.

 

Also, I traded in all my Kickstarter VIP for a Mountain Citadel.  Worth.

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1 hour ago, Kith said:

VIP is $15 per month, and is available in the shop right now for you to check.

 

Also, I traded in all my Kickstarter VIP for a Mountain Citadel.  Worth.

oh, i didn't notice it there already.


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I looked at the skill times for Race and Class and VIP won't help the first 46 days outside of extra bank time.  All of Racial and Class Basics takes 92d 8h (each), you need 50% to get to the next group of skills. Those 2 are losing out on the extra skill training for the first 46 days!


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3 hours ago, Kastor said:

Are any of you seriously considering picking one pair of races and one pair of classes and playing those two options the entire game? A prospect made even more boring by the fact that that pair of races/classes are going to be super similar to each other due to the "group alike" approach they took to splitting them, but that's another argument.

No? Then double skill training will still have a massive positive impact on your gameplay.

Right, but it isn't the "massive advantage" that it would be if you could benefit from the double training on a single vessel.

Being able to train two professions, two classes, and two races provides versatility. You can play more different roles. But you can't really play those different roles simultaneously, which would be a more blatant power advantage.

I don't disagree that VIP provides an advantage. I just don't think it will have a massive impact on power levels.


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4 hours ago, Kastor said:

Are any of you seriously considering picking one pair of races and one pair of classes and playing those two options the entire game? 

If they come up with a relevant scout class, then my answer would be yes.


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4 hours ago, Kith said:

Flexibility in class/race combo, and increased self sufficiency as a harvester/crafter. 

That's all.

Sure, that can be a pretty distinct advantage when the game meta changes; but in battle VIP means nothing.

For a game that once appeared to promote choices that mattered and specialized roles, VIP does take the air out of the balloon a bit.

Being self sufficient vs depending on others seems rather valuable excluding any combat related activities..

Maybe my years of alts has caused me to view things a odd way, but being able to swap and play other ways well has always been of great value to me and those I'm playing with.

Be it having multiple builds on one character or multiple characters to choose from.

In any one instance it might not be a huge deal, but when looking at the overall team focused goal of the game, how much one can bring to the cause is important. Don't think people have to have VIP/alts or play more than one thing/way, but those that do will surely benefit and have a leg up in multiple situations and aspects of the game

4 hours ago, Kastor said:

There exists a very large group of people that have little time and money but still want to play games. Low income earners, parents, students, children (the ones that actually do homework, the rest have plenty of time). By forcing a player to spend large amount of money or time to make real progress then you lock these people out of your game. Indeed one big benefits of crowfall is that passive training is a serious draw to these people as they can advance without grinding, except it's that very same passive training that would lure them in that we are hurting with our VIP system.

We could be one of the very few MMOs that work for such low resource people due to our passive training, that's a niche market that we could have a big boon for our playerbase.

No one is "forced" to spend money on a video game nor play them.

Everything comes with a cost and individuals have to approach things within their means.

Gaming isn't fair and doesn't need to be. However, I do believe companies can avoid going out of their way to restrict who can play and or what is needed to enjoy their products.

There are tons of F2P games across every genre and platform. CF doesn't need to be their for them due to any void.

IMO, people should be paying for games one way or another. I prefer subs but see that it isn't realistic with most products and gamers today.

However, I like to compete based on what I can bring based on time/effort/skill, not what's in my wallet. Some have no issue with it and even I deal with it to a point.

If CF truly ends up rewarding those that spend a lot of cash, I'll be out. Is what it is. Hopefully that is avoided but VIP and certain other systems aren't going anywhere.

3 hours ago, jetah said:

Without people spending money the game will die. Again I'd love to see ACE allow VIP to be consumed for Crowns so that everyone has access to the store but I'm not sure if they'll do that.

How people spend money can come in multiple forms and the better the game, the less need to entice those with the means to pay for advantages.

I would like to see VIP and shop items be traded in for Crowns.

3 hours ago, ForrealGaming said:

Does everyone think online games should be free now? seems like it... ACE please cease all crow-fall development. We instead need a time machine!

RIP mmo's that mattered 1997-2007

If companies were able to create top quality products that provided cash inflow through not game impacting purchases, sure. Realistically though, I'd rather pay a sub and everyone be "equal" when it comes to buy in. Optional sub and shop that don't provide any advantage would be a great option as well.

ACE has gone for game purchase buy-in, optional sub with advantage, cash shop with advantage, and a trade system allowing for further cash influence on performance. Beyond selling OP items in the store themselves, they are doing pretty much everything they can to increase their profits by playing off of customers that enjoy spending cash to get a head. Is what it is, but far from perfect.

1 hour ago, jetah said:

I looked at the skill times for Race and Class and VIP won't help the first 46 days outside of extra bank time.  All of Racial and Class Basics takes 92d 8h (each), you need 50% to get to the next group of skills. Those 2 are losing out on the extra skill training for the first 46 days!

Hopefully people play more than 92 days or we'll never know how VIP will destroy CF and cause ACE to go bankrupt ;)

20 minutes ago, Jah said:

Being able to train two professions, two classes, and two races provides versatility. You can play more different roles. But you can't really play those different roles simultaneously, which would be a more blatant power advantage.

I don't disagree that VIP provides an advantage. I just don't think it will have a massive impact on power levels.

You could craft/gather or do non-combat roles and then PVP. You can do this regardless, but with certain things like recipes being tied to training, VIP does open up possibilities of having more than one thing to do well.

Really comes down to how important training is. Will a maxed crafter be leaps ahead of someone with zero are a little training? Will having a maxed race/class be noticeable on the individual or group level? Too early to tell, but I hope these systems they've spent so much time on will actually add up to something of value.

Then again, maybe those with alt armies will have zero cares and rule the day... 

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