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Plasmafogking

Please, no advantage for $$$

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7 hours ago, Kastor said:

"All VIP does" doubling total skill gain is not some minor thing. It's massive. Sure you can't train both in the same tree but in what game have you ever just trained the same skill tree for the entire game?

As for you final comment "heartless" is not the word I would use, the words I would use would get me warnings or a ban. Many people can't just work their way out of minmum wage, so your solution is that they just don't play games they like for their entire life? What of people with a debilitating sickness, what of people who live in countries with weak currency, I guess the don't deserve fun either.

Yes crowfall needs money to survive, but the current model's vip is far more powerful than it is in many other F2Ps

This is a bit rich but I'll bite.

Here's the thing. You will be allowed to double dip with VIP. I haven't heard anything saying you won't be able to. Does this mean doing double Combat makes your character better than someone who does Crafting and Combat for the Profession category? No. Training multiple races or classes doesn't really mean much in term of advantage. It means you're going to have more diversity in your account and that's all. Being able to double dip or diversify more quickly doesn't make you win more fights or win more campaign worlds. It just means you have more flexibility.

I swear it's like you're trying to say you want everyone to only need to buy into the game for their account and spend nothing else. This model doesn't work for multiplayer games such as MMOs. There has to be some sort of revenue coming in every month. Subscription models work. Micro transactions work. VIP-style models work.

Crowfall's VIP isn't that powerful and is pretty weak compared to actual F2P games that use one. But here's the thing, Crowfall isn't a F2P game. It's B2P with optional micro transactions and optional subscription. 

To answer your question more directly if they shouldn't play games like Crowfall or something else that they might not be able to afford at they highest competitive level because people think you need something like VIP to compete on the highest competitive level, then yes, they shouldn't play those games. It's called being a responsible person and not a glutton for luxurious things you don't really need in your life. You don't need VIP in Crowfall to play competitively. You can also get multiple accounts as well if you don't want to pay for VIP.


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Versatility is power, always.

But if you not convinced there's a equally important reason. Fun. Versatility is fun, being able to switch between two or three play styles is fun. Being forced to eventually lock yourself into a single profession, one or two similar races, and one or two similar classes or fall behind is not fun.

Many players will buy vip even if it's only a few convenience benefits, they just like supporting the game, and many players will never buy VIP even if it's super great. If a player won't pay for vip we loose money, if a player won't pay for vip and gets bored of the game, we loose money and player base.

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32 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

You will be allowed to double dip with VIP. I haven't heard anything saying you won't be able to.

Devs have said you can't double dip in at least Combat (weapon/armor) paths, not sure about other general things like multiple crafts or whatever. Believe you can in those.

Training multiple races or classes doesn't really mean much in term of advantage. It means you're going to have more diversity in your account and that's all. Being able to double dip or diversify more quickly doesn't make you win more fights or win more campaign worlds. It just means you have more flexibility.

This might be true but I look at it from the perspective of someone that has played MOBAs, CCGs, FPS, Overwatch, and had multiple maxed out characters in MMOs at the same time.

Options almost always provide a benefit to the individual and their team over time. Maybe not in every single instance, but in CF shouldn't it be about the "war" or "campaign" vs 1v1 or smaller encounters?

Having more value as an individual, be it combat+crafting or multiple classes allows one to pick what is more valuable at that moment vs someone that is limited by their singular choices.

However, if they continue with a rather bland generalized design to classes, we might see no major reason to pick X or Y. If so, will be rather boring.

To me, spending time creating a build to use to for outplaying others is a challenge and fun experience. If it doesn't really matter if I'm a Ranger or a Champ and simply another number in the herd, Zzzzzz.

Games with a competitive scene (WoW, CCG, OW, MOBAs at least) have metas that go all over the place and allow players to experience multiple ways to play and reward those that step outside of their comfort zone. In Overwatch for example, being a "one-trick" is frowned upon by the community as a whole. Overall they might do fine individually, but they end up hurting their teams depending on the match.

I've been in situations in MMOs where we needed X and Joe didn't want to play X despite having access to it and we suffered because of it. Not to say people should be forced to do something they won't enjoy, but there are definitely situations where performance and outcomes (like winning sieges, POI, field battles, campaigns) can be heavily influenced by what players do individually and as a team.

Then again, if it just pick whatever race you think is cool looking and whatever flavor of DPS wrapped as a "class," oh well, fun times I guess.

 

Edited by APE

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1 minute ago, Kastor said:

Versatility is power, always.

But if you not convinced there's a equally important reason. Fun. Versatility is fun, being able to switch between two or three play styles is fun. Being forced to eventually lock yourself into a single profession, one or two similar races, and one or two similar classes or fall behind is not fun.

Many players will buy vip even if it's only a few convenience benefits, they just like supporting the game, and many players will never buy VIP even if it's super great. If a player won't pay for vip we loose money, if a player won't pay for vip and gets bored of the game, we loose money and player base.

Albion Online had a lot of people that never paid into the game. Never bought Premium time. How they got it was acquiring Silver to convert into Premium time or Silver into Gold to convert into Premium time. There was someone buying Premium time or Gold with real money. Was a pretty good system. Guess what other game will have that? Crowfall. You will be able to trade for VIP. EVE Online does this as well with PLEX.


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5 minutes ago, APE said:

However, if they continue with a rather bland generalized design to classes, we might see no major reason to pick X or Y. If so, will be rather boring.

Until we see an actual realistic live and released version of a campaign world for us to experience and then experience it we won't really know for sure how boring the game is to just simply play it. I really do hope ACE revamps the base class kits. All of them but Cleric are bland and boring. Need more seasoning and spices to make the recipe perfect.


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19 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Albion Online had a lot of people that never paid into the game. Never bought Premium time. How they got it was acquiring Silver to convert into Premium time or Silver into Gold to convert into Premium time. There was someone buying Premium time or Gold with real money. Was a pretty good system. Guess what other game will have that? Crowfall. You will be able to trade for VIP. EVE Online does this as well with PLEX.

Albion's system was broke prior to release. People started the game day one with millions of gold/silver and endless Premium because of this. I like the idea behind the economy, but when so much is tied in to currency amounts, it makes a mess. Rich players/guilds used their initial wealth to buy their way to controlling the world which in turn controls gathering/crafting which impacts PVP and further control. Nice big snowball aka Uncle Bob as ACE calls it.

Beyond internal drama and players leaving, large guilds/alliances had little issues. Luckily there is drama to help things along.

Remember someone posting about how they made a couple million doing silly amounts of trading across zones and crafting and someone else was like "that's nothing I started on day 1 with more than that." Even when a "little guy" managed to find a way to move up, they were still no where near where someone else could just buy their way in.

Maybe if the marketplace didn't exist it would be less of an issue, but being able to do cash-gold-silver-best items or multiple of okay items removes any degree of "fairness" to those not doing the same, even if they are putting in 10 hour days or whatever to attempt to compete.

As you've pointed out in other comments, AO is a massive grind and even after grinding, those that open their wallets can simply just leap ahead further, regardless if both put in the same amount of time/effort in-game.

I don't see that being the same in CF, but if could get out of hand depending on how shop items are traded, how 3rd parties are allowed to trade items for items, and other such ways to turn cash into power in-game.

Between AO and CF, AO's "optional" sub really isn't for any sane person. You must have it one way or another. CF's isn't mandatory as of yet.

It isn't a surprise how quickly AO's population and potential popularity dropped, even for MMO standards. Regardless if someone can play for free or relatively so, if they can't actually compete with those paying, not a good competitive model. 

12 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Until we see an actual realistic live and released version of a campaign world for us to experience and then experience it we won't really know for sure how boring the game is to just simply play it. I really do hope ACE revamps the base class kits. All of them but Cleric are bland and boring. Need more seasoning and spices to make the recipe perfect.

Agreed. So much is speculation, guessing, assumption at this point. However, beyond a rather generic poor character system, variety will almost always be better than not. More so if the skill ceiling remains relatively low and playing the same thing for months/years doesn't really increase a players performance. When it comes to cash influencing CF, I have a hard time seeing how it won't in multiple ways and that is by design. How far players let it go and participate will be seen. They have to at least get a game out the door and people actually have to show up for any of it to really matter though.

Edited by APE

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21 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Albion Online had a lot of people that never paid into the game. Never bought Premium time. How they got it was acquiring Silver to convert into Premium time or Silver into Gold to convert into Premium time. There was someone buying Premium time or Gold with real money. Was a pretty good system. Guess what other game will have that? Crowfall. You will be able to trade for VIP. EVE Online does this as well with PLEX.

See I just looked up the exact effects of Albion and Eves VIP time so I could be all "Ahh ha, they don't double total training"

But they do and much...much more. Very Pay 2 Win.

Still, trading in game for VIP is pretty bad as well. It's probably going to end up costing a lot of in game currency. Any player who has to trade for it is going to loose so much of their own time doing so that they'll fall behind in other ways. Heck that almost makes it MORE pay to win. "I had to spend all my gold on VIP", "Huh, you shoulda just brought it with $, I spent all my gold on this sweet sword, check out it's damage." [murder ensues]

So yes both of those games do it, but I think we could be better than them. There are some really good not direct power things from them though "Infinite training queue" is nice, I mean we already kinda have a bonus like that, with the VIPs three day time bank, but infinite means you can actually go on holiday without losing ground. I also don't mind the idea of VIP exclusive stuff, especially if it's of the limited time style. "Be the first to play with new race/class/discipline a month before anyone else". As long as that thing is reasonably balanced anyway. Oh and Capes. Vips should have better capes, always, obviously. Even if capes a crafted item everyone can have, if a VIP is wearing it BOOM extra gold trim, very important. Capes.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

Albion's system was broke prior to release. People started the game day one with millions of gold/silver and endless Premium because of this. I like the idea behind the economy, but when so much is tied in to currency amounts, it makes a mess. Rich players/guilds used their initial wealth to buy their way to controlling the world which in turn controls gathering/crafting which impacts PVP and further control. Nice big snowball aka Uncle Bob as ACE calls it.

Yeah I was there when it happened. Held onto my 19k gold until Silver prices went up and stabilized. But yeah, the economy was ruined before the game's official release. One would think after 3 years of horrible beta tests and ignored feedback that SBI would have got their crap together.

Beyond internal drama and players leaving, large guilds/alliances had little issues. Luckily there is drama to help things along.

Large guilds and alliances did have issues. Players stopped going deep into Black Zones and resorted to T4 gear instead of risking most expensive gear because that gear was reserved for GvGs over territory. As a result, the best gear was often funneled to small numbers of players within large guilds for those GvGs and even Hellgate teams.

Remember someone posting about how they made a couple million doing silly amounts of trading across zones and crafting and someone else was like "that's nothing I started on day 1 with more than that." Even when a "little guy" managed to find a way to move up, they were still no where near where someone else could just buy their way in.

I did that. So did thousands of other people. You could make a lot off T2 and T3 mats. It was dumb playing the market cause it was too easy.

Maybe if the marketplace didn't exist it would be less of an issue, but being able to do cash-gold-silver-best items or multiple of okay items removes any degree of "fairness" to those not doing the same, even if they are putting in 10 hour days or whatever to attempt to compete.

All SBI ever cared about was making money off their game. If they cared about other things then the general opinion from their remaining player base would have been listened to. They weren't going to do anything to damage their financial strength from the game. Oh wait, they did by falsely banning active players who disagree with them, banning inactive accounts, and people the devs and community managers didn't like from the forums. Sounds a lot like the same kind of censorship the SOTA devs do.

As you've pointed out in other comments, AO is a massive grind and even after grinding, those that open their wallets can simply just leap ahead further, regardless if both put in the same amount of time/effort in-game.

It's more than a grind. It's a 200+ hour a week PART-TIME job. Even with Premium and T4 gathering gear you don't gather up enough mats to make a difference. Stockpiling stuff was just a waste for the most part if you aren't using it. That's all guilds and players did was stockpile mats and crafted gear cause the frustration of replacing the stuff was extremely time consuming. So even Albion's VIP-style system didn't give you crap for an edge over others. Just something to convert into large amounts of silver that you could burn on replacement gear.

I don't see that being the same in CF, but if could get out of hand depending on how shop items are traded, how 3rd parties are allowed to trade items for items, and other such ways to turn cash into power in-game.

Well if Crowfall's "gold coin" system ever gets into the game, that could be used to convert into VIP or to be used to craft a VIP consumable token/potion. That's how it could work for Crowfall. But I don't think ripping off Albion's Currency Exchange market idea is a good idea. Players should learn to barter and haggle when doing trading. If one person wants to trade 5 Dust Coins for VIP then that's cool. If another person values VIP 50 Dust Coins, then that trade should be possible.

 


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1 minute ago, Kastor said:

See I just looked up the exact effects of Albion and Eves VIP time so I could be all "Ahh ha, they don't double total training"

But they do and much...much more. Very Pay 2 Win.

Still, trading in game for VIP is pretty bad as well. It's probably going to end up costing a lot of in game currency. Any player who has to trade for it is going to loose so much of their own time doing so that they'll fall behind in other ways. Heck that almost makes it MORE pay to win. "I had to spend all my gold on VIP", "Huh, you shoulda just brought it with $, I spent all my gold on this sweet sword, check out it's damage." [murder ensues]

So yes both of those games do it, but I think we could be better than them. There are some really good not direct power things from them though "Infinite training queue" is nice, I mean we already kinda have a bonus like that, with the VIPs three day time bank, but infinite means you can actually go on holiday without losing ground. I also don't mind the idea of VIP exclusive stuff, especially if it's of the limited time style. "Be the first to play with new race/class/discipline a month before anyone else". As long as that thing is reasonably balanced anyway. Oh and Capes. Vips should have better capes, always, obviously. Even if capes a crafted item everyone can have, if a VIP is wearing it BOOM extra gold trim, very important. Capes.

Looking up and actually experiencing it are two completely and extremely different things. Spending cash on Gold in Albion for a Legendary quality Tier 5 Warbow didn't mean you were going to win because you now have a really awesome weapon. If anything it means you're a more highly valued target for other players to kill and steal from. It means you're going to die a lot more often cause you have more expensive gear on you that people actually want.

A lot of folks in that game flip gold and silver for each other to make more of one another on the exchange and even horde certain amounts for emergencies. People also grouped together with others in their guild to go on Silver runs to acquire more silver. In some cases you could start the run with 10k Silver and end with over 1 million. And this is with silver drops being shared equally across all players.

VIP isn't a, "I am gonna reach into my wallet and pull out a large handful of cash so I can win more" type of thing. You're spending money to diversify your account faster. This doesn't lead to more winning. You have more options available to you to pick from that are augmented through it. It's like saying getting a business degree in real life is pay 2 win because it can lead to all kinds of really awesome career fields and the one you pick first you can sink a ton of time into but if you switch later you can utilize the time you spent in another career field for the new one.

But yeah let's make arguments based off just looking up game features on a website instead of actual experience from playing the game.


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11 hours ago, jetah said:

Eve Online allows you to multi-train up to 3 characters on the account and it cost extra for the second and third. Eve and CF are the only two games I know with passive style training.

 

With what I hear on my non-profit radio station, 1 out of 20 people actually donate. I wouldn't be surprised if 1 out of 20 pay more than is required to play a game. The best I've seen is WoW that allows a player to amass gold and turn that gold into subscription time OR store credit. I personally would love to see ACE do this with CF. Eve Online allows trading PLEX. Another game is Warframe, a F2P game that allows free players to trade certain items for Silver, the cash shop currency. This allows a free player to have access to 99% of the cash shop. The market is alive and people with Silver don't want to farm so they buy, people with time don't have Silver so they sell. Both sides are happy!

ACE wants people that will pay for VIP. That allows them to pay the employees which gives us new races, classes, environments, visual houses, visual mounts, etc. Without people spending money the game will die. Again I'd love to see ACE allow VIP to be consumed for Crowns so that everyone has access to the store but I'm not sure if they'll do that.

If memory serves, the target number for most games with MTX or optional subscriptions is 2-3%, so 1 in 20 would actually be fantastic.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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12 hours ago, Kastor said:

I guess I made that point badly, I was kinda angry at the time. I can make this argument from a success of the game standpoint instead.

Player base is paramount, income from each individual player is secondary. I mean if your choice is increase the playerbase by 10% or increase the income per player by 10% then you should really go for the bigger playerbase as that will make players happier with the game, giving you goodwill that will then lead to more future income.

There exists a very large group of people that have little time and money but still want to play games. Low income earners, parents, students, children (the ones that actually do homework, the rest have plenty of time). By forcing a player to spend large amount of money or time to make real progress then you lock these people out of your game. Indeed one big benefits of crowfall is that passive training is a serious draw to these people as they can advance without grinding, except it's that very same passive training that would lure them in that we are hurting with our VIP system.

We could be one of the very few MMOs that work for such low resource people due to our passive training, that's a niche market that we could have a big boon for our playerbase.

People who can't afford to pay for something are never a target market, by definition. This is a flawed argument for that reason.

Speaking on behalf of the gamers in your proposed "target market," however - so, the people who grew up eating week-old leftovers from their church analogue, gaming on a cobbled-together computer made of secondhand parts they got from their mom's job's dumpster or their two-gen old rig bought with Christmas money - the fundamental solution is "don't play games that you can't afford to play."

The biggest reason I didn't play World of Warcraft, even though so many of my friends did, was that I couldn't afford a subscription. It just didn't fit into my budget. So......I played other games. It's not rocket science.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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13 hours ago, Kastor said:

I guess I made that point badly, I was kinda angry at the time. I can make this argument from a success of the game standpoint instead.

Player base is paramount, income from each individual player is secondary. I mean if your choice is increase the playerbase by 10% or increase the income per player by 10% then you should really go for the bigger playerbase as that will make players happier with the game, giving you goodwill that will then lead to more future income.

There exists a very large group of people that have little time and money but still want to play games. Low income earners, parents, students, children (the ones that actually do homework, the rest have plenty of time). By forcing a player to spend large amount of money or time to make real progress then you lock these people out of your game. Indeed one big benefits of crowfall is that passive training is a serious draw to these people as they can advance without grinding, except it's that very same passive training that would lure them in that we are hurting with our VIP system.

We could be one of the very few MMOs that work for such low resource people due to our passive training, that's a niche market that we could have a big boon for our playerbase.
 

Much better argument over all.

All these arguments fall over with one simple fact, nobody has to pay any money to get VIP.  As a good that can be traded, those cash poor but time heavy will be able to trade in game assets. The whales in Guilds can donate VIP to contributing players short of cash. Those that really invested in the game, can hand off VIP tokens they figure they will not need because they have literally years worth of them.

There is also nothing stopping ACE from making VIP tokens one of the potential rewards for winning campaigns.

If your really worried about poor people, buy some tokens and set up a shop to donate to those in need. I'm sure guilds will be doing some of that anyway.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, goose said:

 

 a cobbled-together computer made of secondhand parts they got from their mom's job's dumpster or their two-gen old rig bought with Christmas money ...

 

Frankly I don't want those people playing the game anyway, because crappy computer performance affects us all in a multiplayer twitch like environment.  One crappy computer or connection can turn the game into an unplayable slide show.

I think ACE should even have the installer check for minimum computer specifications and refuse to install on sub standard hardware, and setup net code that detects crappy network performance and logs players out that have it.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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15 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Frankly I don't want those people playing the game anyway, because crappy computer performance affects us all in a multiplayer twitch like environment.  One crappy computer or connection can turn the game into an unplayable slide show.

I think ACE should even have the installer check for minimum computer specifications and refuse to install on sub standard hardware, and setup net code that detects crappy network performance and logs players out that have it.

 

I'm not even sure this is a thing anymore, honestly. But if it is (the secondhand part, not the 2-gen old machine - those are probably fine these days), it could honestly work out fine. I volunteered in a factory for a few months in Portland that basically took apart donor machines, tested the salvageable parts, and reassembled the ones that talked to each other in a new chassis. It was a surprisingly efficient system run on a volunteer basis, and after you'd clocked a certain number of hours, you got to take a rig home - more hours got you a system made with higher-end parts. It was basically a non-profit that made secondhand computers.

Now, this was coming up on 10 years ago, so anything that could run even an old MMO like WoW would have taken several months of 4-hour volunteer shifts, I'm sure - don't actually remember, since I needed a word processor, not a gaming rig - but since then, the stuff required to run most games moderately well has gotten much cheaper, since innovation vis a vis new features has slowed down and the only real changes from generation to generation have tended to be incremental performance increases. A machine made of 2-3 generation old parts today is much, much closer to a machine made with top-of-the-line parts than it was 10 or 5 or even 2 years ago.

The point is, a machine cobbled together from parts that aren't more than 3-4 years old at the absolute outside can potentially run most new games with only a few settings changes or new parts. It's not the ridiculous expense it used to be. But then again, most people didn't grow up in a household with a mom who worked in tech support, so maybe I'm overestimating how many poor kids these days know a RAM stick from a CPU.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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having access to multiple races and classes will cost you or your guild more than someone who's focusing on 1 of each.  If you take your assassin and die then swap to templar someone has to gear that class change. More resources have to be gathered to make sure there's enough to craft variety of gear.

In the 5.4 test I cannot train 2 skills for Race or Class until I'm 50% complete their respective Basic Training. This is a ~45 day wait time before that VIP perk is available. Only the extended Bank will be used for 2 of 3 training groups. Everyone at the start will be equal in the first 45 days! If someone joins after those 45 days then they'll be behind.

People are also forgetting the Tomes, these allow players without VIP to catch up! (after they're introduced)

I would love to see the Shop offer cosmetics for all weapons, armors, buildings, mounts, etc. It's easy to recolor. but I'd also like to see unique building designs, holiday decorations, new worlds, new classes, new races, boats!, naval combat, underwater harvesting/combat/terrority, a gaseous planet that has only aerial combat! I'd love a story mode separate of the mmo, or as an EK adventure. It'll take an income to get all of that in!


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7 minutes ago, jetah said:

having access to multiple races and classes will cost you or your guild more than someone who's focusing on 1 of each.  If you take your assassin and die then swap to templar someone has to gear that class change. More resources have to be gathered to make sure there's enough to craft variety of gear.

In the 5.4 test I cannot train 2 skills for Race or Class until I'm 50% complete their respective Basic Training. This is a ~45 day wait time before that VIP perk is available. Only the extended Bank will be used for 2 of 3 training groups. Everyone at the start will be equal in the first 45 days! If someone joins after those 45 days then they'll be behind.

People are also forgetting the Tomes, these allow players without VIP to catch up! (after they're introduced)

I would love to see the Shop offer cosmetics for all weapons, armors, buildings, mounts, etc. It's easy to recolor. but I'd also like to see unique building designs, holiday decorations, new worlds, new classes, new races, boats!, naval combat, underwater harvesting/combat/terrority, a gaseous planet that has only aerial combat! I'd love a story mode separate of the mmo, or as an EK adventure. It'll take an income to get all of that in!

..presumably, if you take your assassin, DON'T die, and swap to Templar, this remains true. After all, an Assassin and a Templar are both separate physical objects that need separate runes and potentially gear loadouts. But then again, dying in a game where gear degrades and can also potentially be stolen off your corpse means that this is an expense that will exist regardless, so I posit that being bad at the game will cost your guild more than using multiple classes.

Not really going anywhere with this, just a casual observation of a turn of phrase I found odd. >.>

Edited by goose
..everything is bold all the time? ACCEPT MY FORMAT CHANGES.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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1 hour ago, goose said:

 

I'm not even sure this is a thing anymore, honestly. But if it is (the secondhand part, not the 2-gen old machine - those are probably fine these days), it could honestly work out fine. I volunteered in a factory for a few months in Portland that basically took apart donor machines, tested the salvageable parts, and reassembled the ones that talked to each other in a new chassis. It was a surprisingly efficient system run on a volunteer basis, and after you'd clocked a certain number of hours, you got to take a rig home - more hours got you a system made with higher-end parts. It was basically a non-profit that made secondhand computers.

Now, this was coming up on 10 years ago, so anything that could run even an old MMO like WoW would have taken several months of 4-hour volunteer shifts, I'm sure - don't actually remember, since I needed a word processor, not a gaming rig - but since then, the stuff required to run most games moderately well has gotten much cheaper, since innovation vis a vis new features has slowed down and the only real changes from generation to generation have tended to be incremental performance increases. A machine made of 2-3 generation old parts today is much, much closer to a machine made with top-of-the-line parts than it was 10 or 5 or even 2 years ago.

The point is, a machine cobbled together from parts that aren't more than 3-4 years old at the absolute outside can potentially run most new games with only a few settings changes or new parts. It's not the ridiculous expense it used to be. But then again, most people didn't grow up in a household with a mom who worked in tech support, so maybe I'm overestimating how many poor kids these days know a RAM stick from a CPU.

I don't think we are there yet, because ACE hasn't even really begun optimization, but I do know from experience if the game is laggy for any reason, such as ping latency, graphics stuttering/low frame rate, etc, it's just plain worse.  I'm not sure if Unity has built in net code to make sure someone else having low frame/rate stutter doesn't impact those around them, but I do know it has been a problem in the past.

As to the 3-4 years old systems, yea graphics haven't jacked up enough since I bought my 780Ti a few years ago that it's still competitive. Moore's law seems to have stalled out a bit hardware wise lately.

 

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Frankly I don't want those people playing the game anyway, because crappy computer performance affects us all in a multiplayer twitch like environment.  One crappy computer or connection can turn the game into an unplayable slide show.

I think ACE should even have the installer check for minimum computer specifications and refuse to install on sub standard hardware, and setup net code that detects crappy network performance and logs players out that have it.

 

hahaha I had to laugh at this Krakken. I get what you are saying and I hate poorly made socksty computers ruining the experience for those of us who paid (this is my hobby). I mean I am that guy calling out the crappy toaster playing LoL that forced everyone to sit on the loading screen for 5 minutes.

I just think the skill ceiling is so low in Crowfall right now that this "multiplayer twitch like environment" (rolling on the floor laughing at this point) won't be affected.

Now that the laughter is over, the sadness is kicking in. I wish this was a multiplayer twitch like environment :( 

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5 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

hahaha I had to laugh at this Krakken. I get what you are saying and I hate poorly made socksty computers ruining the experience for those of us who paid (this is my hobby). I mean I am that guy calling out the crappy toaster playing LoL that forced everyone to sit on the loading screen for 5 minutes.

I just think the skill ceiling is so low in Crowfall right now that this "multiplayer twitch like environment" (rolling on the floor laughing at this point) won't be affected.

Now that the laughter is over, the sadness is kicking in. I wish this was a multiplayer twitch like environment :( 

I too have spent far too many hours staring at the loading screen in LoL because some guy thought his third world dental floss ISP connection was good enough to play the game with. Far too often they DC 5 minutes in even after they load.

I honestly don't know what to compare CF to, why I called it "twitch like", and didn't just call it twitch. Twitch is closer than MMO Tab targeting, or EvE time dilation whachmacallit to deal with large crowds.  It's kinda a middle/muddle ground right now, but I really hope they get it closer to twitch. At least close enough that latency actually matters.

 

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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