Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Plasmafogking

Please, no advantage for $$$

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, Plasmafogking said:

Name any game which survived at least several years in this model and didn't change up till now, because i can name tons of games who started as P2P games and only survived by dropping this model to where it belongs - to the garbage bin.

LOL that most popular game ever to be in the MMO Space, World of Warcraft went over a decade, I believe they are even STILL sub today with a cosmetic cash shop.  So they are able double dip.  Come on man that is kind of a no brainier.  Lineage 2 another one that crushed it.  EverQuest,   The list goes on.  You might want to look to the past to learn from poorly made socks mistakes from developers.  A quick cash grab with a "Oh we are free to play" and some hogwash hidden agenda to get cash quick in the cash shop will see any game dead in a few months.  Another huge success SWTOR.  Still has a Monthly sub today.  They can say its free to play but everyone that takes that game serious pays the month VIP $15 dollars.  

 

Every cash grab free to play, pay to win game dies in months.  Most free to play, but everyone actually pays the SUB for VIP (Whatever you want to call it, Its still a subscription based model) Has years under its belt.

 

D,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Dannyboy said:

LOL that most popular game ever to be in the MMO Space, World of Warcraft went over a decade, I believe they are even STILL sub today with a cosmetic cash shop.  So they are able double dip.  Come on man that is kind of a no brainier.  Lineage 2 another one that crushed it.  EverQuest,   The list goes on.  You might want to look to the past to learn from poorly made socks mistakes from developers.  A quick cash grab with a "Oh we are free to play" and some hogwash hidden agenda to get cash quick in the cash shop will see any game dead in a few months.  Another huge success SWTOR.  Still has a Monthly sub today.  They can say its free to play but everyone that takes that game serious pays the month VIP $15 dollars.  

 

Every cash grab free to play, pay to win game dies in months.  Most free to play, but everyone actually pays the SUB for VIP (Whatever you want to call it, Its still a subscription based model) Has years under its belt.

 

D,

Then name any new mmo, in the last 5 years that is still pay to play. Wildstar, ESO and a few others all had to change.

33 minutes ago, APE said:

Several early MMOs until 10 years ago or longer "survived" on required subs with some moving to optional with "perks." WoW and FFXIV being two that I believe are still sub based with shops but not really much "P2W" elements. EVE went F2P/Sub optional last year. DAoC is still sub based and one of my favorites. Eastern, especially newer, MMOs are definitely set up with cash shop and "convenience/advantage" in mind, however, most are still in business with more folks playing at any given time than CF might ever see...

Can you name any some what newer MMO that survived on cosmetics only?

POE is not a "MMO" and GW2 offers (or did) the majority of what you said CF shouldn't have.

I personally have no clue if CF could survive on cosmetics only and prefer if they at least attempted to keep cash less involved at least to find out, but it's not my company, income, risk, etc.

Yes it is unfortunate that they couldn't at least attempt to think up and try something else before going straight into cash influencing options.

While many/most MMOs  have had to change their pay model, at least they tried something else. If fans won't/can't support the original model, change it up and find what will work.

Eve Online offers a demo as their f2p. My 100m sp character can't train nor pilot 90% of what she's trained. 

Warframe!

CF would have to offer account services, and cosmetics. They have the EK and people will pay for unique looking housing items! CF has multiple worlds so there are plenty of unique styles ACE could work on. They could offer different types of mounts besides horses and pigs. Again, plenty of worlds where other animals could come from.

Only problem I see is the amount of VIP given out via pledges that would have to be turned into crowns. Last I remember it was over 97k VIP given out via Kickstarter only pledges. Now add the PayPal and I'd guess it's well over 125-150k. One intention for VIP was to offer early access to new archetypes but I'm not sure how that'll work with the separation they did.

Convenience is borderline. I like the extended Bank time but I couldn't justify spending 15$ for just that. Some developers grant an amount of store credit as well, maybe they could do that. I like how Warframe is setup in that it gives F2P players the chance to trade stuff for cash shop stuff but currently VIP will do the same.

We'd have to give some pretty good ideas and reason to swap away from VIP/Subscription model.


etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, jetah said:

Eve Online offers a demo as their f2p. My 100m sp character can't train nor pilot 90% of what she's trained. 

Warframe!

CF would have to offer account services, and cosmetics. They have the EK and people will pay for unique looking housing items! CF has multiple worlds so there are plenty of unique styles ACE could work on. They could offer different types of mounts besides horses and pigs. Again, plenty of worlds where other animals could come from.

Only problem I see is the amount of VIP given out via pledges that would have to be turned into crowns. Last I remember it was over 97k VIP given out via Kickstarter only pledges. Now add the PayPal and I'd guess it's well over 125-150k. One intention for VIP was to offer early access to new archetypes but I'm not sure how that'll work with the separation they did.

Convenience is borderline. I like the extended Bank time but I couldn't justify spending 15$ for just that. Some developers grant an amount of store credit as well, maybe they could do that. I like how Warframe is setup in that it gives F2P players the chance to trade stuff for cash shop stuff but currently VIP will do the same.

We'd have to give some pretty good ideas and reason to swap away from VIP/Subscription model.

I don't really have suggestions for something "better" as it is relative, but wish they had tried something less cash based first. Heck see how betas go even. Albion Online had betas for years where it was clear cash -> power despite those that dismissed it because "anyone can grind and get the same stuff in-game."

Is what it is at this point, just hope they don't take it further down the same path.

To me, for cosmetics to keep a game going, it has to be massively popular to some extent and cater to those that like vanity items.

How many houses or chairs will someone buy for their EK and sit in it all day or whatever? The game outside of that has to be entertaining to. 

IMO, games like Warframe and POE don't really compare to a larger scale MMO (however large CF might get). Especially when they are more PVE/Co-Op based instead of OW PVP, kill each other and take pretty shiny stuffs...

I can't point to Overwatch and say "look see it works, game cost + cosmetic loot boxes are the way to go, they have millions of players in a PVP game!" The factors involved aren't remotely similar.

When it comes down to it, people will accept ACE's model or not. Some won't understand it until it's too late and go off into the interwebs to trash talk. How many stick around is the big unknown and ACE will have to deal with the outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WoW uses a subscription + expansion pack + cash shop business model. Cash shop is optional with some cosmetics and account services. Monthly subscription and purchase of each new expansion pack is not optional if you want to play all the content. They don't get money only from subs :P


tiPrpwh.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just did a re-read of the current model or what they are thinking they will implement on release.  This is your hybrid SUB model.  Not sure why we are arguing.  Unless I'm understanding it wrong.  They will claim Free2play to bring in the masses, but their will be advantages for those that are willing to pay the Subscription of 15 a month.  SWTOR is doing the same stuff.  That is the new Subscription model out today.  I'm fine and very happy with that.  Its those willing to pay the $15 a month that keep the company running and bring us new content.

 

What I am NOT okay with and will never get roped into again is something like ArcheAge, Where it is clearly a Pay2Win model.  Its not that I can't pay2win its the simple concept.  Makes my stomach turn.  

 

D,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, miraluna said:

WoW uses a subscription + expansion pack + cash shop business model. Cash shop is optional with some cosmetics and account services. Monthly subscription and purchase of each new expansion pack is not optional if you want to play all the content. They don't get money only from subs :P

If paying 6 months at a time, the expansion price still averages total sub to ~$15/month. Assuming someone was a consistent player that got at least $15 value every month.

WoW is also a unique snowflake and not comparable to any other MMO or game. Same goes for League/Dota2/Overwatch/HS/CS/PUBG/Fortnite. Some companies/games just take off and can't be stopped (too quickly). The 99% of others have to figure it out the hard way.

 

Edited by APE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Dannyboy said:

Just did a re-read of the current model or what they are thinking they will implement on release.  This is your hybrid SUB model.  Not sure why we are arguing.  Unless I'm understanding it wrong.  They will claim Free2play to bring in the masses, but their will be advantages for those that are willing to pay the Subscription of 15 a month.  SWTOR is doing the same stuff.  That is the new Subscription model out today.  I'm fine and very happy with that.  Its those willing to pay the $15 a month that keep the company running and bring us new content.

 

What I am NOT okay with and will never get roped into again is something like ArcheAge, Where it is clearly a Pay2Win model.  Its not that I can't pay2win its the simple concept.  Makes my stomach turn.  

 

D,

CF might be worse than AA when it comes to cash influencing outcomes of campaigns depending on how it ends up.

Maybe not the individual being able to buy super powered gear like AA (believe that was the issue?) but trading shop goods for in-game CW resources could sway CW victories/losses.

When potentially weeks/months can be wasted due to folks using cash and or losing hard earned virtual items for the same reasons, might be a bit more disappointing then losing in AA or whatever happens in that game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea ArcheAge didn't even try to hide it,  It claimed Free2Play, but you needed a subscription of 15 to really play the game with their labor system.  Then on top of that you could drop thousands to get the top gear in game and steam roll anyone with it.  Was pretty blatant.  Was a massive cash grab by TRION and co.  I'll have to dig into CF's system more then.  Because if its as bad as you say we might not be coming this way then.  I swore I'd never get roped into a cash grab system again.  I have no problem paying a monthly sub.  But if a whale can dictate in anyway shape or form the outcome of PvP I'm out.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, APE said:

the individual being able to buy super powered gear like AA (believe that was the issue?)

ArcheAge is P2W because the only way to get the super-powered (no exaggeration) gear is to pay real money. Putting in more play time will not earn the gear because of the Labor Point system.

Everything in ArcheAge, except combat, requires labor points, and only a limited amount of points regenerate each day. Want to open the loot bags you got killing mobs? Costs labor points. Want to pick the crops on your farm? Costs labor points. Want to turn in a trade pack? Costs labor points. Want to craft an item? Costs labor points. Want to use the Auction House? Costs labor points. Run out of labor points? Buy on cash shop. Want to pay taxes so you don't lose your house? Buy on cash shop. The one rare item (thunderstruck trees) you could make lots of in-game money with got nerfed when they put those on the cash shop as well. All designed to keep the majority of the playerbase well below the power level of the small percentage of big-paying whales.


tiPrpwh.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Dannyboy said:

Yea ArcheAge didn't even try to hide it,  It claimed Free2Play, but you needed a subscription of 15 to really play the game with their labor system.  Then on top of that you could drop thousands to get the top gear in game and steam roll anyone with it.  Was pretty blatant.  Was a massive cash grab by TRION and co.  I'll have to dig into CF's system more then.  Because if its as bad as you say we might not be coming this way then.  I swore I'd never get roped into a cash grab system again.  I have no problem paying a monthly sub.  But if a whale can dictate in anyway shape or form the outcome of PvP I'm out.

 

 

It isn't that bad. There isn't going to be any loot boxes in Crowfall or super powerful items on the cash shop. It's not going to be another Archeage cash shop experience.

Also, Trion didn't have a lot of say in anything cause XLGames owns the game. They just partnered with Trion to publish it to NA and EU markets. They're still a garbage company for what they allowed to happen and should have put their foot down more on what was going on even if it meant XLGames demanded all the game servers to be shut down and their relationship dissolved. But they buckled cause they probably need the money because of their growing irrelevancy in the industry.

I do miss Archeage though.


OS_Sig3.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jetah said:

Then name any new mmo, in the last 5 years that is still pay to play. Wildstar, ESO and a few others all had to change.

Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (the remake) did launch in August 2013 so still under 5 years at this point.  Has had subs since then, released an optional cosmetic cash shop and two expansions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Dannyboy said:

LOL that most popular game ever to be in the MMO Space, World of Warcraft went over a decade, I believe they are even STILL sub today with a cosmetic cash shop.  So they are able double dip.  Come on man that is kind of a no brainier.  Lineage 2 another one that crushed it.  EverQuest,   The list goes on.  You might want to look to the past to learn from poorly made socks mistakes from developers.  A quick cash grab with a "Oh we are free to play" and some hogwash hidden agenda to get cash quick in the cash shop will see any game dead in a few months.  Another huge success SWTOR.  Still has a Monthly sub today.  They can say its free to play but everyone that takes that game serious pays the month VIP $15 dollars.  

 

Every cash grab free to play, pay to win game dies in months.  Most free to play, but everyone actually pays the SUB for VIP (Whatever you want to call it, Its still a subscription based model) Has years under its belt.

 

D,

So, three games (linegage 2 went free to play years ago):
1. Wow - one of the most popular games
2. SWTOR - the game with population lower than prison population in japan (and this game also offer some F2P options because it is dying)
3. Everquest - game played only by the most hardcore fans ever and population consisting of several thousands (maybe) of them

Now, lets look at subscription model feats in recent years
1. Dungeons & Dragons Online - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
2. WildStar - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
3. The Secret World - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
4. The Lord of the Rings Online - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
5. Rift - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
6. Elder Scrolls Online - had to go from P2P to B2P or die
7. Lineage 2 - had to go from P2P to F2P or die
Do i need to continue?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, miraluna said:

ArcheAge is P2W because the only way to get the super-powered (no exaggeration) gear is to pay real money. Putting in more play time will not earn the gear because of the Labor Point system.

Everything in ArcheAge, except combat, requires labor points, and only a limited amount of points regenerate each day. Want to open the loot bags you got killing mobs? Costs labor points. Want to pick the crops on your farm? Costs labor points. Want to turn in a trade pack? Costs labor points. Want to craft an item? Costs labor points. Want to use the Auction House? Costs labor points. Run out of labor points? Buy on cash shop. Want to pay taxes so you don't lose your house? Buy on cash shop. The one rare item (thunderstruck trees) you could make lots of in-game money with got nerfed when they put those on the cash shop as well. All designed to keep the majority of the playerbase well below the power level of the small percentage of big-paying whales.

Only tried the beta briefly, but BDO KR/NA was somewhat similar. Crappy systems IMO, but people still play with or without dumping loads of cash. Hence why I have no doubt ACE might go further down cash influencing options. As much as people demand "NO P2W" there seems to always be folks willing to go along with it.

3 hours ago, entityofsin said:

It isn't that bad. There isn't going to be any loot boxes in Crowfall or super powerful items on the cash shop. It's not going to be another Archeage cash shop experience.

At this point I wouldn't count anything out. ACE could add whatever to the shop if it drives profits. They have no obligation not to do so.

Instead of ACE offering super powerful weapons for cash, people could potentially buy cosmetics or less powerful items (mounts/relics) and trade them for player crafted powerful items. Might be more hands involve and require more effort, but end result might not be extremely different.

Who knows though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Dannyboy said:

I swore I'd never get roped into a cash grab system again.  I have no problem paying a monthly sub.  But if a whale can dictate in anyway shape or form the outcome of PvP I'm out.

I don't see CF as a cash grab, but at the same time I don't ignore what has been clear from day 1. Cash will influence the game as is.

VIP provides advantages. Cash shop provides advantages. Trading cash shop goods for in-game CW goods provides advantages.

To what extent this will occur or matter is unknown, but ACE is not anti-P2W or whatever or their model wouldn't work this way.

They claim innocence by not offering OP items in the shop, but if the shop and ACE act as a middle man, not hugely different.

Those not paying more will either have to suck it up or not. If the game is fun enough, hopefully isn't a big deal nor that in our faces.

However, I believe the "buy once play forever" model is rather misleading. Someone has to be paying past the initial buying and without a 100% game box/cosmetic system, someone is going to be buying what is seen as an advantage, which is less than ideal in a PVP/loot based game.

4 minutes ago, Plasmafogking said:

Do i need to continue?

Besides POE which is not a MMO or comparable and GW2 which has pay for advantage/convenience/win stuff, what MMO games are cosmetic only or offer nothing of advantage for sale? Especially games with focus on PVP, be it "safe" arena/bg based or open world.

Pointing out a bunch of games that sub didn't work is fine, but there are numerous factors to consider, not just the pay model.

If there are not examples of games fitting your own criteria, what evidence is there that an alternative design is better or would succeed? "I know it would," is not helpful.

Based on the games listed, CF should go F2P, offer optional subs with "perks" aka advantages, along with shops doing the same. Which doesn't match up with what you want or say is "needed" to not "die" instantly. Because all of those games are no longer live...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, APE said:

Besides POE which is not a MMO or comparable and GW2 which has pay for advantage/convenience/win stuff, what MMO games are cosmetic only or offer nothing of advantage for sale? Especially games with focus on PVP, be it "safe" arena/bg based or open world.

Pointing out a bunch of games that sub didn't work is fine, but there are numerous factors to consider, not just the pay model.

If there are not examples of games fitting your own criteria, what evidence is there that an alternative design is better or would succeed? "I know it would," is not helpful.

Based on the games listed, CF should go F2P, offer optional subs with "perks" aka advantages, along with shops doing the same. Which doesn't match up with what you want or say is "needed" to not "die" instantly. Because all of those games are no longer live...

How does buying gold effects GW2 BG pvp where gear does not matter? There is literally no power in paying in there.
ESO?
Vindictus?
Wildstar?
Tree of savior?
Secret wold legends?
Blade and soul?
Tera?
Runescape?
None of these (as far as i know) offer unfair advantage for $$$.

Do i also have to point out that games dropping subscription model improve greatly? Just look at ESO.

And based on your arguments you should be able to buy god mode in here and one-shot anyone who paid less than you. Now actually a better solution, is it? Oh wait, did you just now got an idea that you are allowed to make strawmen and i don't?

Also, what do you mean by "are no longer alive"? ESO pulling higher player count that WOW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Plasmafogking said:

How does buying gold effects GW2 BG pvp where gear does not matter? There is literally no power in paying in there.
ESO?
Vindictus?
Wildstar?
Tree of savior?
Secret wold legends?
Blade and soul?
Tera?
Runescape?
None of these (as far as i know) offer unfair advantage for $$$.

Do i also have to point out that games dropping subscription model improve greatly? Just look at ESO.

And based on your arguments you should be able to buy god mode in here and one-shot anyone who paid less than you. Now actually a better solution, is it? Oh wait, did you just now got an idea that you are allowed to make strawmen and i don't?

Also, what do you mean by "are no longer alive"? ESO pulling higher player count that WOW.

Haven't played all of those games, and some of them quite a while ago, but really Vindictus LITERALLY have a statboost you can ONLY get by using real cash, that is even at the purest and more narrow definition real P2W right there. Wildstar I only stopped for other reasons before it went F2P, but I heard it was pretty bad, not sure on details there though. For GW2 you know the BG is not the only PvP in that game, you got the WvWvW as well, and that shared the economy with the PvE side, and with the gem to gold conversion, it can depending on your definition be called P2W as well (though I don't really feel it is that bad, but there is an argument to be made at least)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ArcJurado said:

Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (the remake) did launch in August 2013 so still under 5 years at this point.  Has had subs since then, released an optional cosmetic cash shop and two expansions.

WoW, Eve Online and Final Fantasy survived because of their name (IP) but I wouldn't call them the standard. There are too many recent examples of paid games that had to switch. I did forget about FFXIV:ARR.


etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the game is good it wouldn't have to go F2P :P. A lot of MMOs that had to go f2p was because they were not good enough to retain their player base :P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, APE said:

At this point I wouldn't count anything out. ACE could add whatever to the shop if it drives profits. They have no obligation not to do so.

Instead of ACE offering super powerful weapons for cash, people could potentially buy cosmetics or less powerful items (mounts/relics) and trade them for player crafted powerful items. Might be more hands involve and require more effort, but end result might not be extremely different.

Who knows though.

Anyone with enough experience playing a large variety of MMOs know that games with cash shops that go down a path where you purchase in game character strength ultimately burn their players quickly and institute a stage left exit from the game.

If ACE does start putting that kind of stuff in the cash shop, you'll see this game with a fraction of it's player population. I am making an assumption here but I don't think a lot of people play MMOs to be faced with a game that's essentially financial warfare between players on who has a larger bank account and better paying job.

But I get what you're saying as you do me. It's just a wait and see sort of thing. Gonna be a lot of angry people with pitch forks and torches ready to burn ACE to the ground if they do.


OS_Sig3.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, APE said:

I don't see CF as a cash grab, but at the same time I don't ignore what has been clear from day 1. Cash will influence the game as is.

VIP provides advantages. Cash shop provides advantages. Trading cash shop goods for in-game CW goods provides advantages.

To what extent this will occur or matter is unknown, but ACE is not anti-P2W or whatever or their model wouldn't work this way.

They claim innocence by not offering OP items in the shop, but if the shop and ACE act as a middle man, not hugely different.

Those not paying more will either have to suck it up or not. If the game is fun enough, hopefully isn't a big deal nor that in our faces.

However, I believe the "buy once play forever" model is rather misleading. Someone has to be paying past the initial buying and without a 100% game box/cosmetic system, someone is going to be buying what is seen as an advantage, which is less than ideal in a PVP/loot based game.

Purchased items being able to be traded is helpful though, even if there is the possibility of some level of abuse.  If things like VIP couldn't be traded then people who don't have the means or desire to pay cash would have no access to it.  In this way there's nothing that can't be gained by just playing the game, there's nothing that is exclusively locked behind cash with no other alternatives.  To me having things locked being cash with absolutely no alternatives is more P2W than being able to trade it.

Is it possible that someone could trade it to someone else for help in a battle or high tier equipment?  Yeah it's possible but I don't think the possibility of that scenario happening is worth denying people alternate options for obtaining VIP or purchased items.  

Edited by ArcJurado

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...