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Templars need some love...3rd tray maybe..

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25 minutes ago, CPU13rother said:

rawminor010.png

Let them use this.

How would this work though? You cant exactly give them one pip per hit since that is completely unproportional with what other classes gain as resources (though i dont remember the values it shouldnt be 1/5 of max resource).

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Right now the biggest "problem" with Templar is that their strengths are too strong and their weaknesses too weak.  I am all for classes having strengths and weakness, but this might be a tad too much.

They are way to good at area denial, tanking, and any large scale fights where melee will be present.  You can take 3-4 melee out of the match and spam ~800 damage knockdowns into them.

However, in small scale PvP in large open areas vs. ranged classes, they are nearly useless.

Even both those out a bit and I think we would be a lot closed to where we need to be.

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In my experience Templars thrive in the thick of the fight as a beefy frontline support, we've got a good gap closer (though a good player can predict and force you to waste it) and a decent selection of CC as well as many hybrid damage/healing options for sustain. 

I think once all classes get access to ranged disciplines, there will be some much more interesting ways to play them solo/v.small group.

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On 03/01/2018 at 12:37 PM, CPU13rother said:

rawminor010.png

Let them use this.

 

On 03/01/2018 at 12:59 PM, BarriaKarl said:

How would this work though? You cant exactly give them one pip per hit since that is completely unproportional with what other classes gain as resources (though i dont remember the values it shouldnt be 1/5 of max resource).

 

7 hours ago, surBear said:

Templar cant take that.

 

It could easily work and totally fits the theme of templar as a tank and would help their horrible resource/kiting issues.

Other 'resource restoring powers' already function on the templar [e.g. friar impoverished blessing, noble purpose, illuminate, coalesce nature etc]

It would not just restore 'one pip a hit'

basically how all discipline power costs work is they use actual values of powers on their tooltip e.g. "13" or "45" etc - which are then converted in different amounts against a classes basic resource type

for a thread that illustrates this take a look at my previous testing thread of

IMO i agree that templar should gain access to eminently punchable cough @mhalashace

especially after the changes removing their capacity to parry counterattack/generate pips against 'ranged' attacks

Edited by Tinnis

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I would definitely like to see the ability to parry a physical attack back into the game.  Partying a fireball is one thing, but an arrow has substance and can be mitigated just like a rapier.  

 

I feel bad for templars.  I had been talking with friends about how fun they are and seem to be really strong when pulling 5+ boars but then he tried it and it lasted about 3 fights against a Druid and he quickly got off the class cuz there is no way to deal with the teleport.  Hoping the 5.4 changes make this a bit friendlier...

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Still playing duelist till they work on some of the Templar/champ aiming on melee.  New campaign started and was surprised at how man templars I saw.... and how many overshot their censure.  Had a couple even bounce off my body and they slid past.... felt bad for em for not knowing it’s broken.  Works well on boars though....

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On 1/13/2018 at 6:18 PM, Xpade said:

New campaign started and was surprised at how man templars I saw.... and how many overshot their censure.  Had a couple even bounce off my body and they slid past.... felt bad for em for not knowing it’s broken.  Works well on boars though....

I definitely learned the hard way that there are some problems with Censure.  Sometimes, I noticed a 1-2 second delay from keypress to the skill actually firing. 

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Yeah.  since its on a cool down and requires pips... i'd like to see it as forgiving as archery.  large cone and hits the first person in its path.

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On 1/13/2018 at 5:18 PM, Xpade said:

and how many overshot their censure.  Had a couple even bounce off my body and they slid past.... felt bad for em for not knowing it’s broken.

Censure is the one and only thing I would like to see changed on the Templar.  Give it a ground target reticule so the templar can pick the distance they want to leap, give it an area snare where they land.  The fixed distance is a pain in the ass.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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That could work, but wouldn’t be the direction I would fight for.... but it may be the easiest way to get us help... I want my cake, and I want to eat it too...yes I’m greedy.

  There’s many variables in the dynamics required to get this right.  I’d like to see it fixed “right” and wherever my reticle is, that individual gets the the big stick.  Adding in a gtaoe to a melee centric class will really change the feel of it and I’m not sure it would be for the best..... wish we could “try” the options out there and provide feedback.  I’d hate to see a change locked in and it be the wrong change...in my head this would be like making archery a gtaoe for each click... you would have bomb threats.

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Few changes I would like to see:

Parry:

  • No longer triggers the counterattack from AoE's or DoT's.  Counterattack has a 5 second CD. 

Parry is just WAY to easy to use in big fights.  You just tap RMB without even caring what is going on and you will 100% trigger the counterattack.  Change it so you at least have to be targeted by someones cursor to trigger the effect.  Counterattack is just too strong to not have a cooldown.

  • Parry now generates a PIP after taking X amount of damage while Parrying.

Templar's weakness is supposed to be mobility.  However, they do need some answer to kiting.  Being able to essentially have 50% damage reduction while moving like a snail should be it.  Yes you can kite and kill a Templar, but it will take you 50% longer to kill them.  Combined with this next change...

Divine Light:

  • Costs 2 PIP's to use.  No longer drains PIP's while healing.  Can only generate 1 PIP per wave, regardless of how many players are hit.  Maybe adjust CD and numbers accordingly.

Again, large fights essentially removed PIP's as even being a resource.  Put down Divine Light and you generated more PIP's than you could ever spend.  Combined with the fact that you can't spam Parry counterattack, you will actually have to think about generating and spending PIP's in large group fights.  Also, it becomes a way for you stay alive while kiting or LoSing as well.  Right now if you use Divine Light and the 1 guy you are fighting moves out of it, there is no reason for you to stay in it (you are likely PIP starved in 1v1).

 

These suggestions would take the Templar in the right direction, but additional tweaks are likely needed (as well as potential number adjustments based on the above).

Edited by Kirchhoff

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8 hours ago, Tinnis said:

assassin gets disc bows and now can generate pips via disc bow left clicks

can use 'hit me'

has same base hp as templar now

;feelsbad templar;

I want to throw my 2h sword as a holy avenger slaying evil doers and upholding all richeous followers of the realm...... or something like that in a RP mood... yeah, I don’t want mirrored abilities... so let me throw my sword.... if it applied a snare/nockdown/debuffs of sorts, that would be swell.

the question would be:  is it an overhead throw with a vertical spin, twisting throw with a horizontal spin, or a javelin type that does thrust/pierce damage or make it a holy sword move that does a spirit sword and does a flame or magic type damage (bonus damage against sin builders?))))

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7 hours ago, Kirchhoff said:

Few changes I would like to see:

Parry:

  • No longer triggers the counterattack from AoE's or DoT's.  Counterattack has a 5 second CD. 

Parry is just WAY to easy to use in big fights.  You just tap RMB without even caring what is going on and you will 100% trigger the counterattack.  Change it so you at least have to be targeted by someones cursor to trigger the effect.  Counterattack is just too strong to not have a cooldown.

  • Parry now generates a PIP after taking X amount of damage while Parrying.

Templar's weakness is supposed to be mobility.  However, they do need some answer to kiting.  Being able to essentially have 50% damage reduction while moving like a snail should be it.  Yes you can kite and kill a Templar, but it will take you 50% longer to kill them.  Combined with this next change...

Divine Light:

  • Costs 2 PIP's to use.  No longer drains PIP's while healing.  Can only generate 1 PIP per wave, regardless of how many players are hit.  Maybe adjust CD and numbers accordingly.

Again, large fights essentially removed PIP's as even being a resource.  Put down Divine Light and you generated more PIP's than you could ever spend.  Combined with the fact that you can't spam Parry counterattack, you will actually have to think about generating and spending PIP's in large group fights.  Also, it becomes a way for you stay alive while kiting or LoSing as well.  Right now if you use Divine Light and the 1 guy you are fighting moves out of it, there is no reason for you to stay in it (you are likely PIP starved in 1v1).

 

These suggestions would take the Templar in the right direction, but additional tweaks are likely needed (as well as potential number adjustments based on the above).

If we tweak parry, it would have to be applied to shield skills as well.  I feel parry/block should only work on projectiles, be it physical or magic.  Gtaoe items can’t shouldn’t be blocked/parried.  This takes us into the realm of hit mechanics and would then pull in archer cone range and such.... deep rabbit hole can be made on this

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15 hours ago, Xpade said:

If we tweak parry, it would have to be applied to shield skills as well.  I feel parry/block should only work on projectiles, be it physical or magic.  Gtaoe items can’t shouldn’t be blocked/parried.  This takes us into the realm of hit mechanics and would then pull in archer cone range and such.... deep rabbit hole can be made on this

I really don't think it needs to be that complicated.  You don't need projectile physics to make this a LOT better.  Also, I am not really sure this applies to blocking that much.  In my mind, the change I suggested was focused around the triggering of the counterattack from Parry, not anything else.  So simply tweaking the the parry counterattack to not trigger from ground target AoEs and DoTs would fix the majority of the issues I described.  That likely doesn't take fundamental changes in how the game is designed.

The damage reduction from blocking, however, would still apply to ground target AoEs and DoTs.

What about these changes makes you think anything needs to be done about block?  This is entirely focused around triggering the counterattack.

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Oh, I was implying that it’s similar...and if we look to change anything we have to consider every class and race using similar mechanics.  please don’t take it wrong, I like constructive dialogue....like if we change censure... what about champ leap or ranger in your face teleport.  Imagine if we applied Templar censure to function like ranger 1 key(please do it).

there’s 2 mechanics at play.  1 is the parry/block and 2nd is mitigation.  Both trigger similarly, and have a follow up mechanic.  Both mitigate damage, not completely negate it.  One is a sword that sweeps damage aside and uses the physics at play to retaliate, while the other is a shield and just takes the kinetic force head on, and can follow up as well.

... I don’t disagree that you shouldn’t trigger a parry on gtaoe items cuz it’s splashing on your feet.... and neither can the tiny shield block it..... it’s on your feet in a 360 degree arche.  Now if we agree to that part... the 2nd is does it negate damage on your feet or is that left to your boots/armor/skills to handle.

Edited by Xpade

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