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Jjohnsin

State of the Duelist 5.3.x

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I've been playing duelist as my main class since the very very start of Big World. I know the class very well, and how the mechanics work together. 

I'll start by saying that duelist is very strong...almost too strong in my opinion. And that stems solely from expose. The exposed debuff is incredibly strong, and as a result really buffs the power level of the class. Outside of expose procs the class is pretty balanced, a little on the weaker side but I'll add suggestion below. So...how to fix expose, in my opinion make it less face roll and more skill based:

1. Add a diminishing return, separate from other hard CC DR's. This will prevent a duelist from literally just proc'ing you into the ground over and over while making the duelist really consider when the best moments to proc it are. 

OR (I like this one more)

2. Make the exposed debuff have a charge system. I.e. each exposed debuff can be proc'd twice, lasts for a much longer time. This way the duelist also chooses the best times to proc his expose to get the most out of it. 

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Ok so expose debuff out of the way, we can talk about the rest of the base class. While the duelist has many many build options (I have about 6-7 viable options atm)...it feels relatively weak outside of your exposed buff. And I think it should, but it needs a little bit of love with the state it's at currently.

Rapier rat: rapier is an incredible disc and really can lend itself to some nice build options. The main issue atm is with all the CC being thrown around, mainly roots. Rapier rat has a very hard time getting uptime on targets I've found unless you're with a nice coordinated group who can hold enemies in place. I'd like to see critical dodge placed on rapiers as you need the monitory to avoid damage and stay on targets. 

Pistol rat: pistol is not as strong straight up as rapier rat but still solid. Mainly for the ability to proc the exposed debuff so often. First I'd make it so rapid fire only procs on the FIRST shot of rapid fire (having a 2-3 second channel where you can KD is too strong). Since pistol rat would lose critical dodge to rapier from my previous suggestion, I'd say to give them a passive along the lines of Saltpeter Rounds (which is just an awful racial ability btw). Chance to slow on next attack based on pips spent, chance increased with more pips, guaranteed at 5. 

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Base duelist is very solid. Really like the pip spenders, lots of options. Unique and fills a role with areas and ways for other classes to exploit. Overall, outside of the exposed debuff being incredibly strong...duelist is very solid. Their C power should really charge quicker or be 50% to cast similar to knight, champ, fessor. Otherwise it's in a pretty solid spot at the moment I think. Those changes would go a long way in both narrowing the roles of pistol and rapier duelist while balancing the brokenness that is expose at the moment. 

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First of all you have to spit expose punish with expose debuff.

Expose punish are ability that get an additional knockdown when a player is using an ability like flintlock shot or the plague lord abilities. The other side of expose is that block abilities are don't have a cc immunity while exposed. So why in the hell should a duellist equip the rapier mastery...

I can't wait to see dagger's

And I agree getting hold down in a 1 Vs 1 by a duellist is no fun. But they are not balancing here.

So I could live with your solution 2 but I think there are a lot of other things we have to think about.

Because in a group fight expose punisher doesn't work so good. There should be an enemy hitting you and should break the chain.

My problem is that you loading a stun while knock down ppl. So if u failed one time your chain u can just stun him... Because of no cc immunity. First problem. In the current state knights and Templar are the easiest one to stun/ knock down lock. In the earlier state the could prevent at least the stun.

But  the easiest point to nerf the expose punisher on the flintlock shot is just higher the cd by 2 seconds so u can't use the retaliate to knock down your enemies 2 twice and also not permanent.

But this is an incredible nerf and I don't know why the whole expose punisher should be nerfed.

To the other stuff I will just say no 

Because the duellist is in my opinion broken because the core mechanic STEALTH is not working

The c ability is routing u while the I frame....

And other stuff.

Like I have to play with master of pistols for the dodge as melee..

In my opinion is the duellist the weekend class in group fights

And maybe I'm just to negative because the incredible skill training that the duellist had is gone

 


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Some days ago i found 2 Duelists, which killed some people with good coordinated damage. Maybe this could be the role they will have. A special unit to gank allready fleeing targets or solo targets with low life and going to stealth again B)

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4 hours ago, DravoiX said:

First of all you have to spit expose punish with expose debuff.

Expose punish are ability that get an additional knockdown when a player is using an ability like flintlock shot or the plague lord abilities. The other side of expose is that block abilities are don't have a cc immunity while exposed. So why in the hell should a duellist equip the rapier mastery...

Ok the problem is NOT with expose punish abilities...at all. If you think that then you're already off to a bad start thinking about how duelist plays. The strength of duelist at the moment is solely behind the expose debuff, you SHOULD be able to proc it often, if you wish, but you should be limited in the amount of times you can proc the knockdown. Plus you can't nerf flintlock since it's by far the best pip generator duelists have, nerfing that would actually be a huge kick in the face. 

 

5 hours ago, DravoiX said:

Because in a group fight expose punisher doesn't work so good. There should be an enemy hitting you and should break the chain.

My problem is that you loading a stun while knock down ppl. So if u failed one time your chain u can just stun him... Because of no cc immunity. First problem. 

And again, this is just not true. If you can't proc the knockdown ESPECIALLY in a team fight when everyone is literally spamming skills...idk. duelist is an amazing controller in team fights. You don't need to perma chain someone, you use the knockdown to set up swaps onto priority targets. I could care less if i chain CC someone...yes I'll strive for it but it's not the point of the exposed debuff. 

Second, in group fights people get on random CC diminishing returns very often from random stuns and knockdowns. But I'm not sure if you're saying duelist needs CC immunity or enemies do. Either way, duelist should be susceptible to CC and it should really punish him. Other enemies can always run juggernaut, or escape artist in groups, etc. Plenty of counterplay in group fights on both sides. 

5 hours ago, DravoiX said:

Because the duellist is in my opinion broken because the core mechanic STEALTH is not working

The c ability is routing u while the I frame....

Like I have to play with master of pistols for the dodge as melee..

In my opinion is the duellist the weekend class in group fights

Stealth works fine at the moment. Ya it's kinda buggy...whatever, if you're smart you can still sneak around people and if people are wary they can see you. 

I'm aware the ability is rooting the duelist. Doesn't change anything. Having a double C power makes sense...it's a similar C power to fessor. Fessor gets 2, duelist should definitely get 2. Plus it charges too slow in group fights to have up even close to reliably. 

Not sure what you mean by you have to play as MoPistols for the dodge as melee...but rapier makes better use of more dodges where pistol already has range, it doesn't need more mobility. 

Duelist is probably not the worst group class at all. It's actually very strong in groups with a right comp. But it's a pretty unique playstyle and many people obviously haven't quite gotten a grasp on it yet. I'm not sure you recognize where duelist really lacks and where it's really too strong. 

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I agree the expose punish is a bit over the top. 

What if punishing someone removed expose? Consumed the debuff. That would be an option IF there’s a way to expose a target while out of stealth. 

What if flintlock shot exposed a target if they’re hit with it (and not already exposed) while using an ability? It would still punish if they’re exposed and hit while using an ability.

Rapid fire punish would be fine as is if expose was consumed upon punish.

I haven’t played rapier duelist in a while because it’s so hard to stay on target. Critical Dodge would help however I think master of rapiers needs to grant duelist an ability like ranger forest step which warps you to a target. Rapier duelist needs a good gap closer.

I 100% agree that Duelist Ultimate needs cost cut 50% similar to confessor. Way too easy to get focused and killed in group fights with only 1 escape.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

Ok the problem is NOT with expose punish abilities...at all. If you think that then you're already off to a bad start thinking about how duelist plays. The strength of duelist at the moment is solely behind the expose debuff, you SHOULD be able to proc it often, if you wish, but you should be limited in the amount of times you can proc the knockdown. Plus you can't nerf flintlock since it's by far the best pip generator duelists have, nerfing that would actually be a huge kick in the face. 

i just want to express that the most viability of the duellist is the 1vs1 and if u want to nerf it it would be the best set the cd longer to reduce the chance of stunlock and increase the pip gains ...  I wouldnt touch expose at all atm we have to wait for the ranger and assassin expose to see it .
 

47 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

And again, this is just not true. If you can't proc the knockdown ESPECIALLY in a team fight when everyone is literally spamming skills...idk. duelist is an amazing controller in team fights. You don't need to perma chain someone, you use the knockdown to set up swaps onto priority targets. I could care less if i chain CC someone...yes I'll strive for it but it's not the point of the exposed debuff. 

Second, in group fights people get on random CC diminishing returns very often from random stuns and knockdowns. But I'm not sure if you're saying duelist needs CC immunity or enemies do. Either way, duelist should be susceptible to CC and it should really punish him. Other enemies can always run juggernaut, or escape artist in groups, etc. Plenty of counterplay in group fights on both sides. 

 u know that rangers have a Expose remove ... but yeah so u shouldnt attack the backline Confessors are quite viable to attack but  they spam you. so and yeah forget about templar ,Myrm and Champion. Champions have i frames, Myrm have Juggernaut most of the times, and u cant get close to Templars because of divine light spams.
So your easy targets are Knights, Druids and Clerics
No i just saying that a duellist is most hurting a group because of spamming to much Bucketshots he can easly trigger the CC immunity ...
also while u knock down a person u getting after 2 expose punisher nearly a Bucketshot (2) key

 

57 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

Stealth works fine at the moment. Ya it's kinda buggy...whatever, if you're smart you can still sneak around people and if people are wary they can see you. 

No word...

 

58 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

I'm aware the ability is rooting the duelist. Doesn't change anything. Having a double C power makes sense...it's a similar C power to fessor. Fessor gets 2, duelist should definitely get 2. Plus it charges too slow in group fights to have up even close to reliably. 

because its a bug ...

 

 

59 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

Duelist is probably not the worst group class at all. It's actually very strong in groups with a right comp. But it's a pretty unique playstyle and many people obviously haven't quite gotten a grasp on it yet. I'm not sure you recognize where duelist really lacks and where it's really too strong. 

Ofc sorry im playing crowfall for more than 1 year and 50% of it duellist and im playing it wrong ok .. teach me senpai...
Im just saying that the duellist ( as Melee) is since the class race split not able to go on ranged ppl because they have more dodges and going stealth is nearly to 70% bugged everytime
u Cant go in a 20 vs 20 in a melee bulk because u are just die there.
u cant stay backline because a confessor is kicking u out of Stealth...

 

1 hour ago, Jjohnsin said:

Not sure what you mean by you have to play as MoPistols for the dodge as melee...but rapier makes better use of more dodges where pistol already has range, it doesn't need more mobility. 

Just meant that the MoRapier is not worth to take it ...


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57 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

i just want to express that the most viability of the duellist is the 1vs1 and if u want to nerf it it would be the best set the cd longer to reduce the chance of stunlock and increase the pip gains ...  I wouldnt touch expose at all atm we have to wait for the ranger and assassin expose to see it .

If you increase the CD on flintlock it makes duelist 1v1 worse...but let's theorize this. Ok so you increase the CD of flintlock, but then I take pistol and plague lord. the issue still remains...you can still proc the exposed debuff 4 times with that setup. Even by then your 2 second increase on flintlock becomes negligible. but sure, nerf a totally fine ability that has no impact on the actual offender. Not to mention this really isn't about 1v1 and there are only 1v1's right now because the testing population is so small.

 

59 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

u know that rangers have a Expose remove ... but yeah so u shouldnt attack the backline Confessors are quite viable to attack but  they spam you. so and yeah forget about templar ,Myrm and Champion. Champions have i frames, Myrm have Juggernaut most of the times, and u cant get close to Templars because of divine light spams.
So your easy targets are Knights, Druids and Clerics
No i just saying that a duellist is most hurting a group because of spamming to much Bucketshots he can easly trigger the CC immunity ...
also while u knock down a person u getting after 2 expose punisher nearly a Bucketshot (2) key

First it's called Pepperbox Shot. Second, we obviously play a different style of duelist. I think my style is much better but hey, maybe yours is ok too. If you can't avoid AoE's in group fights I suggest focusing on that a lot more, I have no issues getting knocked out of stealth before my opener. You can easily lock down rangers, even if you don't forcing them to double blink is still good pressure. Fessors spam you? I'm not sure what that means...but they have some of the longest animations in the game so locking them down is easy too? Champions have an iframe every once in a while true. Myrm juggernaut is a 45 second CD...so not sure what to tell you there. Maybe wait for the buff to be down before you open? 

Having trouble spamming Pepperbox Shots? Don't spam pepperbox shots...it's not that hard. You have impale on rapier which is why it is better than pistol. 

1 hour ago, DravoiX said:


Ofc sorry im playing crowfall for more than 1 year and 50% of it duellist and im playing it wrong ok .. teach me senpai...
Im just saying that the duellist ( as Melee) is since the class race split not able to go on ranged ppl because they have more dodges and going stealth is nearly to 70% bugged everytime
u Cant go in a 20 vs 20 in a melee bulk because u are just die there.
u cant stay backline because a confessor is kicking u out of Stealth...

I've played more than a year mostly on duelist too? I have literally ZERO issues getting on and staying on ranged classes. There are build paths that can remedy that for you if you want...

I would never run into a 20v20 melee ball as a duelist (well I would on my tank build but that's another story), so that's kinda not a very good argument. Plus most fights in large battles tend to be a lot of smaller skirmishes happening in the same area. 

I have no idea how you're getting knocked out of stealth by a fessor...their only ability that might get you out is firewall. 

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

I agree the expose punish is a bit over the top. 

What if punishing someone removed expose? Consumed the debuff. That would be an option IF there’s a way to expose a target while out of stealth. 

What if flintlock shot exposed a target if they’re hit with it (and not already exposed) while using an ability? It would still punish if they’re exposed and hit while using an ability.

Rapid fire punish would be fine as is if expose was consumed upon punish.

I haven’t played rapier duelist in a while because it’s so hard to stay on target. Critical Dodge would help however I think master of rapiers needs to grant duelist an ability like ranger forest step which warps you to a target. Rapier duelist needs a good gap closer.

I 100% agree that Duelist Ultimate needs cost cut 50% similar to confessor. Way too easy to get focused and killed in group fights with only 1 escape.

 

 

I've played with the idea of punishing someone removing the debuff but ran into the same issue you said, needs to be another way to expose the enemy outside of stealth. Didn't think about adding that to flintlock but really like that idea. 

True about rapid fire, as is though having the whole animation punish is pretty wild. 

I could be all for a forest step, something like a burrow straight to your target would be very cool. Critical Dodge just seemed an easy way to give rapier a little more mobility without having to create anything new. But I agree rapier duelist would feel much better with some sort of gap closer

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30 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

I have literally ZERO issues getting on and staying on ranged classes

 

27 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

I could be all for a forest step, something like a burrow straight to your target would be very cool. Critical Dodge just seemed an easy way to give rapier a little more mobility without having to create anything new. But I agree rapier duelist would feel much better with some sort of gap closer

why u want this then ?


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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

What if flintlock shot exposed a target if they’re hit with it (and not already exposed) while using an ability? It would still punish if they’re exposed and hit while using an ability.

the plague lord expose is really good in my opinion

an i still dont like the idea of consuming the buff... sorry but i dont want to go so often in stealth to re stealth my target... Duellist have so much space for abilities but in my opinion not the right discs / skills as option to create that fits a melee playstyle

And my last statement the for this thread the Duellist (melee) is in 5.3 in my opinion weeker because of:
- The combat got higher mobility  because of more dodges or other movment abilities
- Lost of his incredibile strong skill tree
- alot of Bugs
- the incredible hard to go from melee tray to stealth ...
- anti stealth abilies
- Critcal Dodge cant get used atm not enough crit chance

 

 

Edited by DravoiX

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47 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

why u want this then ?

just because I have no issues staying on ranged doesn't mean the class wouldn't feel better with a gap closer. why wouldn't you want a gap closer on rapier rat? 

 

42 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

an i still dont like the idea of consuming the buff... sorry but i dont want to go so often in stealth to re stealth my target... Duellist have so much space for abilities but in my opinion not the right discs / skills as option to create that fits a melee playstyle

Blazzen's idea is literally so you DON'T need to go into stealth often to reapply the exposed debuff...

You can take juggernaut, rune caster, banshee, AP, mole hunter, standard bearer etc etc. all of which enable melee playstyles

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I’d prefer animation fixes before anything else.  Being stealthed and animation above, or above and animation stealthed is quite annoying when engaging, disengaging,mid fight etc.  we all love the floating Jesus guine till it’s pvp time...

 

If we had to fix a 2nd thing, it’s cone range on ranged attacks inbound while stealthed.  Spray and pray rapid fire from rangers hoping to get lucky and pull you out of stealth is not realistic.  Rapid fire can cover 180 degrees easily.  Having a ranged class aiming 40 meters away 5-10 meters up in the air but hits you while underground and quite easily 30 meters away from where they are aiming doesn’t seem realistic.  You see all the tests that show the left/right range of the archer cone but up/down means they only have to get the left/right close and the up/down is a freebie cuz 5 meters up can hit a guine underground 

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 7:32 AM, DeHei said:

Some days ago i found 2 Duelists, which killed some people with good coordinated damage. Maybe this could be the role they will have. A special unit to gank allready fleeing targets or solo targets with low life and going to stealth again B)

I think they are perfectly suited to be tacklers (as you find in Eve).

 


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