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Meaningful Economy - Help Me Understand.


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How can the economy in this game be meaningful and actually impact the PvP play?   I see a big divide between the short term markets that will bubble up on campaign worlds, and the long term market

People who import equipment from the EK are going to get stabbed to death and looted at some point, so I think it's highly unlikely for someone to make it for a whole campaign with the same gear (apar

How long term are you talking? Some of the campaigns may last up to a year. Thats a pretty long time to get attached to your pixels.

Which means nothing with import rules like "equipped items only".

 

I don't think people are understanding, because you're asking the right questions, yet people are saying, "but you can win something!!!...the end".

 

that's not really the issue. 

 

The issue is: are there areas in the game where items that are won can remain permanently safe? So in the Eternal Kingdoms: if you can win stuff, store it in the EK...it just means that the economy is pointless, because items can be removed from the pvp/looting game play. which then raises the question: what, exactly, is the economy? what value does it have? if items 1. expire after a world erodes and a siege period ends and/or 2. there are safe areas where people can hoard their winnings, safe from pvp/looting...what value does the in-game economy have, because it seems like the "safe" areas (e.g. the Eternal Kingdom) give players a way to avoid being looted...it just seems like a concession to those who want a mild/safe/easy style of game play. 

 

the point is not to suggest that the game is going this way...it's just expressing concerns that concepts like the "eternal kingdom" are a way to placate those who want a way to protect their holdings...it's a concession to those who want to avoid a full open world pvp system...when, ideally, there would be no safe havens in the game, at least not in a big picture way. i think, for me at least, the primary question is, would an area like the Eternal Kingdoms involve any element of risk, or would they be safe from risk?

 

these are concerns about the economy, and how that economy can have value in a system where worlds expire, yet players can hoard gear in a safe haven, like EK. 

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Rolling in to a brand new world with all the land up for grab with items 5x better than others means something to me.

 

 

It could, if gear really represents that much power. And if the difference between winning and losing export was that big of an impact.

 

However, from what has been shown so far.. the world with more strict import rules had better export. If you gain a lot more wealth by going in naked, again, the accumulated wealth loses its value. This is the issue I'm worried about, it's a cycle where you don't really progress.

 

Maybe your character progresses, but this means it's stronger even in a no-gear setting.. this is a real problem because unless your character can lose stats/skills, the power can't be lost.

Edited by nick
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The issue is: are there areas in the game where items that are won can remain permanently safe? 

 

Resources can only be gained in the Dying Worlds (Campaigns).

 

what value does the in-game economy have, because it seems like the "safe" areas (e.g. the Eternal Kingdom) give players a way to avoid being looted...it just seems like a concession to those who want a mild/safe/easy style of game play. 

 

This is a valid concern, but from what little we know, resources are only being taken off Dying Worlds once Win Conditions are met. So until then, everything it up for grabs.

 

However, from what has been shown so far.. the world with more strict import rules had better export. If you gain a lot more wealth by going in naked, again, the accumulated wealth loses its value. This is the issue I'm worried about, it's a cycle where you don't really progress.

 

Another valid concern. I don't know what the answer is yet. I've been concerned about it as well. I have a feeling that there really is just going to be a 'reset' for each campaign for the most part, and the 'wealth' gained in the Eternal Kingdoms is mostly just fluff (Land, 'Trophies', Cosmetics, etc). 

 

Edit: The developers seemed very intent on there being a reset instead of a never-ending game where the powerful stay powerful (which is alluded to in the Risk game example). The less restrictive PvP servers also put people on much more even footing from the onset.

Edited by Teekey

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In my perspective, the economy in the Dying Worlds will be very fun and active (Because of the fact that it is a requirement for conquest, the logistics of weapons, apparel and consumables will be the deciding factor in a large conflict).

 

As for the Eternal Kingdoms, I see the economy there as non-existent, because of the fact that it takes place in a world that has no valuable resources.  Now that I think about it, the Eternal Kingdoms economy is actually dependent on the output of the Dying Worlds (Resources which are leftover in Campaign conflict).

 

For the Eternal Kingdoms to have an economy, the flow of resources must be constant, meaning that we must be able to import resources during the duration of the Campaign.  Otherwise, there Eternal Kingdoms will not have an economy, for an economy you need items of value, and the Eternal Kingdoms do not have good resources.

 

This.  I'm not really seeing viable crafting on EK because of the limited resources that we'll be able to actually import. 

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I have a feeling that there really is just going to be a 'reset' for each campaign for the most part, and the 'wealth' gained in the Eternal Kingdoms is mostly just fluff (Land, 'Trophies', Cosmetics, etc). 

 

That's the impression I get too, but I'm really hoping for deeper value. I have faith, but the path ahead is foggy.

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Resources can only be gained in the Dying Worlds (Campaigns).

 

 

This is a valid concern, but from what little we know, resources are only being taken off Dying Worlds once Win Conditions are met. So until then, everything it up for grabs.

 

 

Another valid concern. I don't know what the answer is yet. I've been concerned about it as well. I have a feeling that there really is just going to be a 'reset' for each campaign for the most part, and the 'wealth' gained in the Eternal Kingdoms is mostly just fluff (Land, 'Trophies', Cosmetics, etc). 

 

so what you're saying is, from what you've seen...there is no economy, other than "fluff"...that's the whole problem. what's the motivation to play if most items either go away or are temporary or can be held safe in hoarding realms? the point is not that we need a stable economy where we can "keep" things...the point is that items should be up for looting, in one form or another.

 

if everything just vanishes at the end of a campaign or can be hidden in safe realms...why do anything? eventually, battles just feel empty, pointless, because you know there will just be a reset...but if there is loot you can win...and then have to fight to keep hold of...that means something. that makes it fun to play and fun to keep playing. the whole point of pvp becomes winning for keeps...and then being forced for defend those winnings...that's interesting, and creates replay value. a system where stuff just goes away, but gosh, there's  safe realm where we can look at trophies...who cares? that's a lot of effort for zero return.

 

the economy question really is about replay value. 

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so what you're saying is, from what you've seen...there is no economy, other than "fluff"...that's the whole problem. what's the motivation to play if most items either go away or are temporary or can be held safe in hoarding realms? the point is not that we need a stable economy where we can "keep" things...the point is that items should be up for looting, in one form or another.

 

We just don't know for sure yet.

 

What they're aiming for is sort of a conundrum. How do you implement a 'reset' that allows people to experience what is arguably the most fun part of PvP games but still maintain some type of meaningful continuity between campaigns? I really don't know exactly what the right answer is.

 

My first instinct is to just look at this game more as a 'next level' MOBA where games last weeks instead of minutes. I don't know if that's the right attitude to take, but considering I was expecting a Fantasy EVE, I feel like I have to change my expectations with the news of campaigns.

 

 

if everything just vanishes at the end of a campaign or can be hidden in safe realms...why do anything? eventually, battles just feel empty, pointless, because you know there will just be a reset...but if there is loot you can win...and then have to fight to keep hold of...that means something. that makes it fun to play and fun to keep playing. the whole point of pvp becomes winning for keeps...and then being forced for defend those winnings...that's interesting, and creates replay value. a system where stuff just goes away, but gosh, there's  safe realm where we can look at trophies...who cares? that's a lot of effort for zero return.

 

the economy question really is about replay value. 

 

 

I don't know. I am looking forward to FFA PvP, but if I can't take ANY advantages I've earned from resource gathering in other campaigns, where's the progression? Where's the continuity? They've mentioned there will be 'trophies' that will likely provide some sort of benefit. We'll have to see if that's enough.

 

But like I said, I'm sort of going into this just looking to enjoy my experience on a per campaign basis instead of expecting to build an empire that fights for control for the duration of the game.

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We just don't know for sure yet.

 

What they're aiming for is sort of a conundrum. How do you implement a 'reset' that allows people to experience what is arguably the most fun part of PvP games but still maintain some type of meaningful continuity between campaigns? I really don't know exactly what the right answer is.

 

My first instinct is to just look at this game more as a 'next level' MOBA where games last weeks instead of minutes. I don't know if that's the right attitude to take, but considering I was expecting a Fantasy EVE, I feel like I have to change my expectations with the news of campaigns.

 

 
 

 

I don't know. I am looking forward to FFA PvP, but if I can't take ANY advantages I've earned from resource gathering in other campaigns, where's the progression? Where's the continuity? They've mentioned there will be 'trophies' that will likely provide some sort of benefit. We'll have to see if that's enough.

 

But like I said, I'm sort of going into this just looking to enjoy my experience on a per campaign basis instead of expecting to build an empire that fights for control for the duration of the game.

 

i don't disagree that "we don't know", i'm certainly willing to see what happens...but if "trophies" is the answer...that's going to disappoint a whole lot of people. conversely, it will appeal to people averse to true open world, brutal pvp, because they can win stuff...and keep it. 

 

in some cases, compromise is the worst thing that can happen to a game. battles, sieges...yet loot that can be taken to special, "eternal kingdom" realms and made safe...that's just compromise. for now, i take CF at face value...they've been promising something different, I believe they are sincere in that goal...but then we hear about permanent characters, yet decaying worlds...and worst of all, "trophies". for me, this just brings up a very legitimate question, which is what Nick is asking, if i understand correctly...based on what we know so far, what does that tell us about the "economy?"

 

an economy where things decay, vanish...yet folks can collect trophies and protect them in certain realms, i.e. "eternal kingdoms"...that will remove the motivation to play, at least for some. for loot to have value? there needs to be risk...it has to be something people can fight for, yet lose if they fail to then protect. if they fight for it, then it just ends with the world...yet people get chuck e. cheese trophies...who cares about that kind of system? collectors will care, people from pve games who are used to winning stuff and keeping it, they'll care...but some of us want risk... in other words, an economy based on vanishing loot, yet token trophies, that's just not worth fighting for in the long run.

 

so, we don't know the specifics...but there are just some concerns about the value of the economy based on what we know so far...and the economy is a big question because it ties into player motivation. i'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, seeing what happens...but the forum is here, it's a great time to be asking these questions.

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I believe the issue is that I'm thinking on a larger scale, over a longer time. The accumulation of wealth isn't that awesome to me, unless it's also an accumulation of power. If I can only accumulate wealth for 6 months (or a year) at a time, then must export it out of the risk zone where it no longer has leverage. Idk, it just feels like that takes something from the experience.

 

Maybe it doesn't. I'll try it out either way.

We will be able to import equipped gear in the 3 faction Gods Reach worlds and probably the 13 faction Infected worlds.

That means we will want to keep several sets of gear banked in the EK for a quick start in the outer campaigns.

Other than that I see the EK as just a bank, like I do instanced housing. Maybe there will be some reason to spend time in EK, but I rather doubt it.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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the trophies worry me...i've seen stuff like that (w/ both trophies and trophy-like gear) bring in the wrong kind of player, and push out those who want a more competitive/sustainable economy, where there is risk associated with any loot. anyway, will be curious to see how it plays out.

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In a game driven primarily by player crafting. Wealth is power.

 

truth.

 

i hope this isn't the case though.

 

lets look at the history of asymmetrical warfare. A couple Kalashnikovs, trip wire, pressure plates, ammonium nitrate etc  are relatively cheap when compared to flight time and ordinance costs of an F-22 etc but are effective in the eventual repulsion of actors with much more logistical support, infrastructure, and force projection abilities. Now, will guerilla warfare be a thing in Crowfall? Possibly.

 

Can I sack your NPC lumber mills and villages? Can I sabotage your ability to extract resources and whittle down a more established entity via death by 1,000 cuts? I think its possible within the confines of the system the devs have spoken of thus far.

 

Creativity and planning may be a force multiplier to wield against material wealth.

Edited by flex

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It's a full loot game.

Crafters will be in high demand....trust me.

No it's not, read before posting false information. So much of this crap being posted around here lately.

 

Each world has it's own rules which include loot rules.

 

On a side note, the economy and longevity are 2 of my concerns with this game when it comes to the resets. Will be fun and interesting if they pull this off. Hoping for the best.


 


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I really hope the risk/reward theme includes trophies. If a player owns a trophy, it should not help him or his guild at all unless he has it equipped on his character. That means the trophy is subject to looting and wear, like any other item. Trophies with stronger effects should have a limited number of charges as well. 

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Correct, except in 6 months when your world dies.

 

 

Well, your character doesn't die. And all of these worlds seem intermingled as they live and die... so, my expectation is the economy exists as a persistent thing also. But with what we can tell so far about how resources are gathered, and how they might be stored (limited ability to do so) it's going to keep things meaningful regardless of world or campaign.

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