Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
jshiu999

Should Crowfall learn from PUBG?

Recommended Posts

I read the "Crowfal should be more like Overwatch" topic and this is my version of it.

I want to compare Crowfall to a survival shooter game: PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (PUBG). Yes, Crowfall is an mmo, but the mmo-aspect falls into crafting and socializing. Crowfall's campaigns in itself is a survival game, and PUBG takes the survival part (remember Hungerdome?) and puts that with the speedy pacing of a modern shooter (imagine CSGO/Overwatch). When you're on the battlefield/campaign the game should feel life-threatening and truly like you're risking everything you own, I think that PUBG's speedy pacing is what makes the game represent that. The fact that you could die at any moment in mere seconds without knowing the whereabouts of your attacker is what keeps the player on guard at all times, and when the player does die the feel that you were helpless and weak is what motivates the player to try again, but this time improving their ability. I don't think Crowfall's problem is that combat is awkward. Crowfall's problem is that is does not feel like a survival, coordinate together to overcome, high risk and high reward survival game. The combat feels awkward because the devs are meshing the "long duration" combat of a traditional MMORPG to that of a "life-threatening" survival game. 

My thoughts are that it is ok for fights in survival games to be long, but they should preserve the feeling "I could die at any moment." My ideas of what could be done, is to lower the health to low values (would make players value their health more), and increase cooldowns and resource costs for defense/utility abilities so that players would need to play more carefully with those abilities, thinking constantly of how to optimize their decisions to prolong the "lifespan" their character who could die in one more move. This would make: Druid's and Confessors value their dash abilities more rather than spamming them mindlessly or whenever they're off Cooldown; it will make knight's think more carefully about their shield ability: My shield is on a long Cooldown, should I wait to block their high damage skill? He is holding onto that high-damage ability awfully long, should I use it now? ; Druid's are also forced to think more about where to place their bubbles if mana costs and Cooldowns are high, versus, where normally they would stack them all in a general area where there is a battle going on. Imagine if the healing bubble has a time limit, that would cause druid players to think about ally movement, speed, location, and dash/teleportation/speed buff ability cooldowns. Lowering health while increasing risk of using an ability would allow for shorter fights, but long fights are also possible if fighting players/teams are skilled enough at managing their abilities. Crowfall would essentially have the survival feeling of PUBG, but more, because Crowfall allow for more counterplay than PUBG does because of Crowfall's nature of having 6+abilities and powers to work with. Of course these are purely theories, this is my opinion, and honestly I have never designed a game before, so I could be horribly wrong. 

Do you think Crowfall is fine as it is? Do you agree with my idea? If not, I'm eager to hear your ideas.

 

Edited by jshiu999

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there used to be this thing in very early pre-alpha called the hunger dome, this is more like what you want and I hope they make one of the campaign worlds like it.

If you don't know what the hunger dome was, it was a short campaign world with a border that kept shrinking to the center of the map, some chests with loot scattered around the world and lots of groups of players starting in different locations, last person to survive would be the winner, I don't know PUBG cause I never bothered playing it but it sounds exactly like that and what you want.

 

The big campaign worlds are good great but sometimes you just want a short game of killing ppl without having to start up another game, so I really hope the hungerdome comes back at launch as minor campaign worlds that won't have an impact on the crafting or items obtained

Edited by Aowin

...obstacles do not exist to be surrendered to, but only to be broken. "***** ******"
I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. "Alexander the Great"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Aowin said:

there used to be this thing in very early pre-alpha called the hunger dome, this is more like what you want and I hope they make one of the campaign worlds like it.

If you don't know what the hunger dome was, it was a short campaign world with a border that kept shrinking to the center of the map, some chests with loot scattered around the world and lots of groups of players starting in different locations, last person to survive would be the winner, I don't know PUBG cause I never bothered playing it but it sounds exactly like that and what you want.

 

The big campaign worlds are good great but sometimes you just want a short game of killing ppl without having to start up another game, so I really hope the Thunderdome comes back at launch as minor campaign worlds that won't have an impact on the crafting or items obtained

Yes, I tested Crowfall  that time :")

PUBG is actually pretty big right now, It's popular with streamers right now because of how tense it can be to watch, and how tense it feels to play it for new players. It's this feeling of "I could die at any moment" that makes it this way. And I'm not feeling that from Crowfall (a game that has survival elements), I didn't feel that from Crowfall since Hungerdome and I don't see that Crowfall getting to that point with its current position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jshiu999 said:

I read the "Crowfal should be more like Overwatch" topic and this is my version of it.

I want to compare Crowfall to a survival shooter game: PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (PUBG). Yes, Crowfall is an mmo, but the mmo-aspect falls into crafting and socializing. Crowfall's campaigns in itself is a survival game, and PUBG takes the survival part (remember Hungerdome?) and puts that with the speedy pacing of a modern shooter (imagine CSGO/Overwatch). When you're on the battlefield/campaign the game should feel life-threatening and truly like you're risking everything you own, I think that PUBG's speedy pacing is what makes the game represent that. The fact that you could die at any moment in mere seconds without knowing the whereabouts of your attacker is what keeps the player on guard at all times, and when the player does die the feel that you were helpless and weak is what motivates the player to try again, but this time improving their ability. I don't think Crowfall's problem is that combat is awkward. Crowfall's problem is that is does not feel like a survival, coordinate together to overcome, high risk and high reward survival game. The combat feels awkward because the devs are meshing the "long duration" combat of a traditional MMORPG to that of a "life-threatening" survival game. 

My thoughts are that it is ok for fights in survival games to be long, but they should preserve the feeling "I could die at any moment." My ideas of what could be done, is to lower the health to low values (would make players value their health more), and increase cooldowns and resource costs for defense/utility abilities so that players would need to play more carefully with those abilities, thinking constantly of how to optimize their decisions to prolong the "lifespan" their character who could die in one more move. This would make: Druid's and Confessors value their dash abilities more rather than spamming them mindlessly or whenever they're off Cooldown; it will make knight's think more carefully about their shield ability: My shield is on a long Cooldown, should I wait to block their high damage skill? He is holding onto that high-damage ability awfully long, should I use it now? ; Druid's are also forced to think more about where to place their bubbles if mana costs and Cooldowns are high, versus, where normally they would stack them all in a general area where there is a battle going on. Imagine if the healing bubble has a time limit, that would cause druid players to think about ally movement, speed, location, and dash/teleportation/speed buff ability cooldowns. Lowering health while increasing risk of using an ability would allow for shorter fights, but long fights are also possible if fighting players/teams are skilled enough at managing their abilities. Crowfall would essentially have the survival feeling of PUBG, but more, because Crowfall allow for more counterplay than PUBG does because of Crowfall's nature of having 6+abilities and powers to work with. Of course these are purely theories, this is my opinion, and honestly I have never designed a game before, so I could be horribly wrong. 

Do you think Crowfall is fine as it is? Do you agree with my idea? If not, I'm eager to hear your ideas.

 

I disagree. I think crowfall should be like.... well Crowfall. It's a unique game already. Scratch that, it's a unique idea. BECAUSE ITS NOT EVEN A GAME YET. 

People are asking for a complete shift in gameplay design before the gameplay design has even been fully implemented. 

Plus this is not a great idea in a full loot game. You can't have low health pools, people getting two or three shot, and losing all their stuff. That's a good way to lose players. 

I don't think crowfall is fine as is...because it's not even crowfall yet. It's just a glorified arena fight at the moment. Give some time for all the gameplay designs to be implemented and look at it again then 

-edit- not to mention a big part of the game, sieging, would be impossible with very low health pools and long CD defensive powers. 

Edited by Jjohnsin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jshiu999 said:

The fact that you could die at any moment in mere seconds without knowing the whereabouts of your attacker is what keeps the player on guard at all times, and when the player does die the feel that you were helpless and weak is what motivates the player to try again, but this time improving their ability.

I dont know about that. Ignoring people losing all their stuff in a 15 secs fights, which would probably kill this game real fast, i am of the opinion MMOs should have a long TTK.

A long TTK doesnt mean slow fights. Higher TTK means more time to think and that to me is a key point in strategic games. It is kinda moot to create all these powers and different effects only for people to go full DPS and be done with it.

I prefer to play as a field controller. I am the kind of player that ends with low kill/death but is at the top in assists. A low TTK game for me would be incredibly boring. You cant exactly plan anything if the fight ends in 30 secs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jshiu999 said:

Yes, I tested Crowfall  that time :")

PUBG is actually pretty big right now, It's popular with streamers right now because of how tense it can be to watch, and how tense it feels to play it for new players. It's this feeling of "I could die at any moment" that makes it this way. And I'm not feeling that from Crowfall (a game that has survival elements), I didn't feel that from Crowfall since Hungerdome and I don't see that Crowfall getting to that point with its current position.

There is nothing is the future design plans that keeps ACE from making exactly the same type of campaign world with the existing mechanics.

Launch from your EK, enter a dog eat dog world that lives until only one person remains, with the hunger always closing in. Allow maybe no import, 1-3 item export, with a +10 item export bonus for the winner. Have random items, maybe all template items without experimentation that they are putting in to replace critical failures, and random resource drops or even just a dust reward and no materials like PUBG has, to take back to your EK, and poof, PUBG Crowfall style. (FYI, I have 90+ hours in PUBG, its fun as hell, and I would definitely use this as my (I have 15 minutes to play) version of the game.)

Maybe the meta for this is a single race/class combo, and some people only ever play this mode, or each world is restricted to a specific race/class to have some semblance of balance. No matter, it's just one possible part of a larger ecosystem.

The basic design of dying worlds and eternal kingdoms makes this game mode possible, and frankly I would love to see it happen.  This is probably one of the easier things for them to build/try after they get through all the core game loop missing pieces.

Quote

HOW OPEN ARE YOU GUYS TO TRYING NEW IDEAS WITHIN CAMPAIGNS?

Our intention is to make this a community-driven process. We’ll come up with ideas, you guys will come up with ideas – and we’ll take the best ideas we find, wherever they come from, and we’ll give them a shot.

If an idea gains enough traction – meaning we like it, and you guys like it – we’ll try it**.

(**so long as it fits within the architecture. We just have to be careful that we don’t break the game at the meta-level.)

  • You want to try a world with no magic? Cool.
  • You want to try a world where we introduce gun power? Sounds interesting.
  • You want to try a world where each character only has one life – meaning that if you die once, you are permanently banned from the World? (I call this idea “Campaign Permadeath”)… Sure, let’s try it.
  • That’s the cool thing about this approach. We’re turning our game community into a massive, game-designing hivemind.
  • We’re game, if you are.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's apples to oranges. This game will be full loot. It is designed to be bent around politics, alliances, subterfuge and betrayal. It is designed to have massive battles and siege of assets. It was not designed as a MOBA or shooter. Those concepts do not match the overall vision of the project as laid out by ACE. 


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been working on a new Fortnite/PUBG style Battle Royale Campaign Map and Game Mode for a couple weeks now, which uses the old Hunger Dome mechanic to constrict the map. This is what will happen in release with campaigns, over the course of a seasonal progression - Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter - that could take around 3 months. The map I am working on, and that I plan to propose to ACE to run as alternate campaign in testing, much like they do with the Bloodbath map, will be like an extra-long Fortnite/PUBG round, or a very short Crowfall Campaign, taking not 30 minutes or 3 months, but 7 days.

The map's configuration would be something like this:

 

newCWmap.jpg

 

On day 1 of the weekly campaign, everyone has access to every part of the map and everything on it, which apart from what is shown above, would include isolated resource nodes spread around the map. The map would start in Spring, and after 2 days, the Hunger would close in, constricting the map, cutting off the Beach-head areas, as the season changed to Summer. It would be summer for 2 days, then the Hunger would close in again, cutting off 3 of the Forts and 3 of the Dragon Statues - which are isolated respawn points that all 3 factions can spawn at, similar to the Ruined ToLs in Shadowbane.

Each season would constrict the map more and more, cutting off more of the spawn points and resources, until the 7th day of the week, which would be Winter, lasting only one day. The faction that is in possession of the Keep at the very end, wins.

This would be a great new game mode with a clear win condition and a somewhat more heightened gameplay experience than the Tug of War campaign currently provides. It would also take advantage of the popularity of games like Fortnite and PUBG, and maybe bring some more attention, and players, to Crowfall.

I will be doing an 'open house' test runs of this Campaign Map in my EK, simulating the Hunger map constriction by removing the outer ring of parcels over time. Not all the mechanics can be tested of course, but it will give people an idea of what the map layout could be like, with it's equidistant Beach-Heads, Forts and POI, and what the gameplay could be with a smaller map and clear objective.

EKs were wiped yesterday so I'm de-doing the map now. If anyone is interested in checking it out, let me know and I'll give you access to the EK. Hopefully someome from ACE, maybe @jonnycab, will give it a look as well and consider doing a trial run on the test server. ;)

EDIT: NOTE, I am proposing this only as an alternative or companion to the Tyranny map, much like Bloodbath is, and ONLY during testing. Has nothing to do with release.

 

Edited by Anthrage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of us have no interest in arena play, we are mmorpg PvPers...   we want persistent world with persistent skills and builds.   That is not to say that there couldn't be very short duration CWs but the rewards would need to be very minimal since the commitment is minimal.

My question  "what is the role of a gather trained player in a 30 min arena battle?"   i.e. no role for gatherers or crafters in match play leaves a lot of players saying sorry, no.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting idea actually Anthrage, though how would it handle say I log in at the very first day, and thus spawns in the beachhead, stay there log out, and come back at day 3 or later, when the beachhead was consumed by the hunger, where my character was at?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gummiel said:

Interesting idea actually Anthrage, though how would it handle say I log in at the very first day, and thus spawns in the beachhead, stay there log out, and come back at day 3 or later, when the beachhead was consumed by the hunger, where my character was at?

You die. +_+


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gummiel said:

Interesting idea actually Anthrage, though how would it handle say I log in at the very first day, and thus spawns in the beachhead, stay there log out, and come back at day 3 or later, when the beachhead was consumed by the hunger, where my character was at?

Same way it is handled when you log out at a Fort and it gets taken - you log in somewhere else, I would imagine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Frykka said:



My question  "what is the role of a gather trained player in a 30 min arena battle?"   i.e. no role for gatherers or crafters in match play leaves a lot of players saying sorry, no.

Supposedly those that prefer to gather and craft aren't the type to enter a battle arena anyway. Not every part of the game or game format needs to have an appeal to every type of player, and not every campaign world needs to appeal to all types of players.

EK building certainly doesn't appeal to a combat purist. They may search out other EK's with lax PvP rules, but build their own, why bother? We shouldn't down play the whole idea of EK's because some types of players have no place in them, nor should we simply brush off other world styles because they don't fit a certain style.  I would LOVE for ACE to have the kind of money and users PUBG has, if for no other reason than all the really cool MMO play style projects it would give them the funding to attempt.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Supposedly those that prefer to gather and craft aren't the type to enter a battle arena anyway. Not every part of the game or game format needs to have an appeal to every type of player, and not every campaign world needs to appeal to all types of players.

EK building certainly doesn't appeal to a combat purist. They may search out other EK's with lax PvP rules, but build their own, why bother? We shouldn't down play the whole idea of EK's because some types of players have no place in them, nor should we simply brush off other world styles because they don't fit a certain style.  I would LOVE for ACE to have the kind of money and users PUBG has, if for no other reason than all the really cool MMO play style projects it would give them the funding to attempt.

agree... and I could always just play a PvP build.   Still, creating a CW where over half of the games mechanics are not used (post launch thinking) seems self defeating.  As I said first the main thing is that a short arena battle CW like this should get very little rewards for winning if any because you are essentially playing without the harder part of the game... GvG, sieges, and the gear and economic loop.  Thing is that eks ARE private arena play with no rewards when you turn on PvP and build it for that purpose, or the owner could set up rewards etc...  this is another reason why there simply is no reason for the devs of a stated mmo would spend the time and resources to make an arena version.  I think Gordon mentioned that having a hunger dome practice arena might be a thing tied to eks or as a non-campaign CW option.

 

 

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frykka said:

agree... and I could always just play a PvP build.   Still, creating a CW where over half of the games mechanics are not used (post launch thinking) seems self defeating.  As I said first the main thing is that a short arena battle CW like this should get very little rewards for winning if any because you are essentially playing without the harder part of the game... GvG, sieges, and the gear and economic loop.  Thing is that eks ARE private arena play with no rewards when you turn on PvP and build it for that purpose, or the owner could set up rewards etc...  this is another reason why there simply is no reason for the devs of a stated mmo would spend the time and resources to make an arena version.  I think Gordon mentioned that having a hunger dome practice arena might be a thing tied to eks or as a non-campaign CW option.

 

 

I believe you are responding more to the OP,  but I do not understand your statement regarding a Campaign World featuring the Hunger closing in etc, would not use half the game's mechanics - GvG, sieging etc are all involved. The release campaigns would be exactly the same, except for being of longer duration...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Frykka said:

agree... and I could always just play a PvP build.   Still, creating a CW where over half of the games mechanics are not used (post launch thinking) seems self defeating.  As I said first the main thing is that a short arena battle CW like this should get very little rewards for winning if any because you are essentially playing without the harder part of the game... GvG, sieges, and the gear and economic loop.  Thing is that eks ARE private arena play with no rewards when you turn on PvP and build it for that purpose, or the owner could set up rewards etc...  this is another reason why there simply is no reason for the devs of a stated mmo would spend the time and resources to make an arena version.  I think Gordon mentioned that having a hunger dome practice arena might be a thing tied to eks or as a non-campaign CW option.

 

 

That's a really good point. 

I would strongly support the devs spending time making tools that allow players to turn their EK layouts and designs into temporary campaign worlds with win conditions.  The EK owner sets the time/rules, etc, same as any other campaign world. They could even give tools to charge entrance fees in the form of in game assets or currency, place rewards, etc, so that those with popular configurations could flesh them out more.

ACE could then watch to see who's EK's are really popular, and start setting up campaign worlds that are similar so that numbers are not limited.(Maybe with some kick backs for the player that created it in the first place.)

The reason the devs could and possibly should spend time  thinking about how to support player EK/Campaigns, is active player limitations. PUBG has 3 million simultaneous players with instances of <100 players in each.  No way a single players EK could support even a fraction of that, even if the campaigns were 1hr in duration, that would be a max of 2400 participants a day. If ACE figured out a sane way for popular EK's to be duplicated and put into campaign world circulation, then anything is possible.

For rewards, perhaps the easiest and least likely to cause balance issues would be training tomes.  With Todds announcement that all players will be capped at the maximum training time a VIP could get since inception, tomes for arena play would be a great way to "earn" experience without grinding (winners get the most time reward), and give Non-VIP players a way to get that particular VIP perk without trade, all without altering the CW/EK resource dynamic.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
NON-VIP != free, so I changed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

For rewards, perhaps the easiest and least likely to cause balance issues would be training tomes.  With Todds announcement that all players will be capped at the maximum training time a VIP could get since inception, tomes for arena play would be a great way to "earn" experience without grinding (winners get the most time reward), and give free players a way to get that particular VIP perk without trade, all without altering the CW/EK resource dynamic.

 

I actually like that, giving training tomes for short CW's like that would also make it easier for new players probably to hop into and get some tomes to catch up a bit with older players that way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...