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pistkitty

How will group harvest work?

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This is going to be more of a "social dynamics" discussion than game mechanics, and thus might be deemed unsuitable for this forum, but I know people are testing group play and I've read again and again how this game will be designed to discourage and punish solo play, so I wanted to address some concerns.

First a brief backround.  I've been playing mmos since everquest.  Over the years I've drifted more toward the crafting / explore and harvest side of gaming; I'm not very fond of pvp and have lost interest in most pve except as it relates to my trade (killing mobs for rare materials and suchlike) I've also been drawn to solo play and now react with hostility toward anyone trying to shove a guild invite into my face.  Probably every but safe to say a majority of guilds I've been in have abused and exploited my eagerness to help, including but not limited to downright stealing my materials,  and treated me like garbage for preferring to support the front lines rather be upon them.  

So, since this "join or quit" mentality seems to be prevalent, are there going to be any safeguards to protect harvesters from this type of abuse, or will we just be slaves to the company, having our harvest stolen from us by greedy guildmasters to reward their cronies.  I suspect the latter as currently with solo harvesting your "loot" goes flying everywhere for any passing thug to snap up; is group loot relegated to whoever is fastest to grab it, or will guild slaves be able to keep some of what they earned? 

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18 minutes ago, pistkitty said:

This is going to be more of a "social dynamics" discussion than game mechanics, and thus might be deemed unsuitable for this forum, but I know people are testing group play and I've read again and again how this game will be designed to discourage and punish solo play, so I wanted to address some concerns.

First a brief backround.  I've been playing mmos since everquest.  Over the years I've drifted more toward the crafting / explore and harvest side of gaming; I'm not very fond of pvp and have lost interest in most pve except as it relates to my trade (killing mobs for rare materials and suchlike) I've also been drawn to solo play and now react with hostility toward anyone trying to shove a guild invite into my face.  Probably every but safe to say a majority of guilds I've been in have abused and exploited my eagerness to help, including but not limited to downright stealing my materials,  and treated me like garbage for preferring to support the front lines rather be upon them.  

So, since this "join or quit" mentality seems to be prevalent, are there going to be any safeguards to protect harvesters from this type of abuse, or will we just be slaves to the company, having our harvest stolen from us by greedy guildmasters to reward their cronies.  I suspect the latter as currently with solo harvesting your "loot" goes flying everywhere for any passing thug to snap up; is group loot relegated to whoever is fastest to grab it, or will guild slaves be able to keep some of what they earned? 

 It is already the mechanic...   you can solo things with good gear but a helper makes it go faster.  I am able to solo the highest rank materials with about a month training in harvesting with a +24 pick (slow with rests) and fast and one shot with a +55 pick; you have to have a runecrafter make these tools though to get the good numbers (interdependence is real).  The doobers will always be free looting so sometimes you have to watch for, well you have to watch anyway since there is dangerous folk about.  The BIG nodes that pop the real valuable stuffs take at least two and more to take down and one person needs to be trained in Motherlodes.  That is group mandatory.  CF is a GvG game in every way...  you have to find a good guild that cares and supports the harvesting crew or uses an honest dkp system to reward those that donate serious value to the whole.

Edited by Frykka

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I really would like to hear a suggestion, as to what you even think ACE could do to protect people from making agreements with other players that they end up getting buyers remorse over.

It's an insoluble problem.  If you make bad friends that abuse you, find new friends. Asking ACE to step in as a school yard referee or judge and jury in what would essentially be a property dispute, is far too much to ask of a game development company.

 

I can tell you this.  Parcels and buildings are tied to your account. So if you find yourself in a guild that does not appeal to you, or you are are kicked out from, you can simply pull your parcels and buildings back and they have nothing to say about it, provided they have not been combined with other parcels to make bigger ones that is.

As for basic materials, keeping your transactions sane between guild members is the responsibility of you.  Don't let something leave your right hand, without getting something of value back in your left.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, Spawl said:

There aren't any loot rights mechanics in the game. 

True.  Perhaps there should be.  Not worried about losing mats to the enemy, they could just kill me anyway and take what they want, but having them flying everywhere opens the door to losing them into terrain or the ground, and the aforementioned abuse by "friendly" forces.

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5 hours ago, pistkitty said:

True.  Perhaps there should be.  Not worried about losing mats to the enemy, they could just kill me anyway and take what they want, but having them flying everywhere opens the door to losing them into terrain or the ground, and the aforementioned abuse by "friendly" forces.

I am totally with you on this one.  The whole doobers popping and chasing thing is about the same as if slot machines spat nickles all over the floor when you won instead into a tray.

It it certainly not more fun to have to chase them around.  It's like you're manically running around with a vacuum cleaner after a hyperactive toddler and an open box of cheerios, many of which fall under the couch. 

I honestly don't have a clue who thought it was a fun idea to drop doobers this way.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I agree with your agreement.  Let me approach the main topic from a different direction.  I realize that there are exceptions to rules and rules to prove exceptions, and most people at the current juncture are onboard with the whole test mentality and things will change when the game goes live and the riffraff are running amok, but as of right now, how do most groups handle the whole "loot" issue?  Is there one designated chaser that gets to reward his cronies as he sees fit, are things divided pretty equally, do those more talented and thus producing more get a better share, is everything snatched away and given to "the crafters" with no consideration that some in the group are crafters themselves?  Is there no precident whatsover and every group tends to just do whatever?  I'm mostly resigned to not being able to solo, (though I'll try it anyway) and I'd kind of like to try the group thing, guild or no guild, but not if it's more trouble than it's worth

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2 hours ago, pistkitty said:

I agree with your agreement.  Let me approach the main topic from a different direction.  I realize that there are exceptions to rules and rules to prove exceptions, and most people at the current juncture are onboard with the whole test mentality and things will change when the game goes live and the riffraff are running amok, but as of right now, how do most groups handle the whole "loot" issue?  Is there one designated chaser that gets to reward his cronies as he sees fit, are things divided pretty equally, do those more talented and thus producing more get a better share, is everything snatched away and given to "the crafters" with no consideration that some in the group are crafters themselves?  Is there no precident whatsover and every group tends to just do whatever?  I'm mostly resigned to not being able to solo, (though I'll try it anyway) and I'd kind of like to try the group thing, guild or no guild, but not if it's more trouble than it's worth

In short, there is no code or moderator enforced precedent.

There is whatever you want it to be. It's all agreement between players.  If your the main harvester in a group, then only run with people who play by your rules.  If you look at the way all the skills are, this game has probably the least amount of role overlap of any fantasy game I have seen.  Harvesters MUST equip harvesting disciplines, and harvesting focused gear, and train harvesting, and have high quality tools.  That sacrifice puts them in the driver's seat of how they distribute harvested materials.  Catch some jerk grabbing all your doobers, stop swinging your pick and walk away. They won't be able to harvest without you, and that jerk will quickly find himself not invited with groups.

Also, to be frank, you really have to think differently about a game that bills itself as a throne war simulator.  Worlds end, and things left behind are lost. The goals are not personal riches first, team second, but the other way around because to export to your EK, you have to WIN as a team first.  Even winners will be limited in what they can export, so simply trying to amass riches is going to be limited.  If your a harvester that has ended up on the losing side, trying to horde your materials will get you absolutely nothing, because when the world ends, your stuff goes poof anyway. So harvesters will trade with the best crafters, and crafters will hand off/sell the best gear to those that will best win the war for them. Both the best harvesters that bring them mats,and the fighters most likely to win the war. 

People who are greedy instead of focused on winning,  will probably find themselves isolated.  

There will also be the ability to set up and manage shops, so if you don't want to give your hard earned harvests away, then set up a shop and sell items.  That dust you see when you harvest will eventually become both the fuel for thralls (NPC's that run crafting blueprints and shops for players), as well as a currency. 

Bottom line though is, I don't think it's up to, nor does ACE have any plans, to interfere with how players interact with each other.  Especially in what is essentially a team sport. I can't think of a single sport that has the referees telling coaches how to run their own teams, and ACE's position in the game is the same.  Create a level playing field for all players to compete against each other.  Interference within a team could and would be favoritism. 

The entire system is designed around allowing users to interact in whatever way they want, and we are all going to have to put up with the good and the bad that humanity has to offer. 

There is simply no way around that, nor should there be.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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@pistkitty It'll be however you and your acquaintances set that up. If you gather then you produce the doobers. Whether you pick them up or someone else is between you and that group. If you craft then someone would have to hand those doobers to you, whether you steal them or craft is up to you. There aren't any hard [game] rules with items. If you see the guild using you then leave. If you were the only Elf Necro or other specialized craft then you take that with you and they have to find a replacement. Or they PM you asking you to make something, then you can charge them or deny them.

Guilds will find real quick to treat everyone with respect or they could lose access to the very speciality they need.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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1 hour ago, jetah said:

@pistkitty It'll be however you and your acquaintances set that up. If you gather then you produce the doobers. Whether you pick them up or someone else is between you and that group. If you craft then someone would have to hand those doobers to you, whether you steal them or craft is up to you. There aren't any hard [game] rules with items. If you see the guild using you then leave. If you were the only Elf Necro or other specialized craft then you take that with you and they have to find a replacement. Or they PM you asking you to make something, then you can charge them or deny them.

Guilds will find real quick to treat everyone with respect or they could lose access to the very speciality they need.

I don't think that bold part can be overstated.  People are going to rely heavily on others for very specific things.  For example there are several major type of harvesting to specialize in. It's not all swinging axes/picks, and hammers, so pick a harvest type that lets you run a bit more solo.  

  1. Woods
  2. Ores
  3. Minerals
  4. Skins/Animals
  5. Corpses for vessels

Now if you want to be completely indispensable, pick one that you know you can do alone by being sneaky for the most part, like Skins or Corpses, and make a habit of running solo. That will also give you a bit of PvE hunting boars etc, and possibly undead for the body parts, in addition to digging up graves. Leave the group people to the things that will be needed for feeding the hungry hippos and building parcels, and focus on the things you can so without other people.  Nobody is going to want to piss off the one or two dedicated corpse harvesters on a team, and they certainly won't steal body parts, simply because odds are good the necromancer on the team would hear from the harvester and others that jerkface was a thief so don't sell him any vessels.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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9 hours ago, pistkitty said:

I've read again and again how this game will be designed to discourage and punish solo play,

That is NOT an accurate characterization of the developers intent. What the developers have said is that Crowfall is a "community-engagement" game. That means at some point in your gameplay you will need to be engaged with other players in the community - that may be trading resources or crafted items, in a pvp conflict, building a social or merchant kingdom,  grouping with casual faction-mates in a CW, or as part of a committed, competitive guild.

 

10 hours ago, pistkitty said:

my trade (killing mobs for rare materials and suchlike)

This playstyle sounds viable in CF, although you are unlikely to be 100% self-sufficient and would at least need to trade with others.


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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't think that bold part can be overstated.  People are going to rely heavily on others for very specific things.  For example there are several major type of harvesting to specialize in. It's not all swinging axes/picks, and hammers, so pick a harvest type that lets you run a bit more solo.  

  1. Woods
  2. Ores
  3. Minerals
  4. Skins/Animals
  5. Corpses for vessels

Now if you want to be completely indispensable, pick one that you know you can do alone by being sneaky for the most part, like Skins or Corpses, and make a habit of running solo. That will also give you a bit of PvE hunting boars etc, and possibly undead for the body parts, in addition to digging up graves. Leave the group people to the things that will be needed for feeding the hungry hippos and building parcels, and focus on the things you can so without other people.  Nobody is going to want to piss off the one or two dedicated corpse harvesters on a team, and they certainly won't steal body parts, simply because odds are good the necromancer on the team would hear from the harvester and others that jerkface was a thief so don't sell him any vessels.

Goes back to my "Guilds will find real quick to treat everyone with respect or they could lose access to the very speciality they need." statement.

@pistkitty Reputation will be big at the beginning of the games life. Guilds that steal from harvesters wont have harvesters regardless of their specialization. Guilds that steal crafted items, won't have specialities they need.

There are plenty of Guilds out there. You could try solo but eventually you'll need someone else for a crafted part. Crafters need Gatherers for materials and Gatherers need Crafters for gear.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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I have seen in other games where the trade window had a small checkbox in a corner for crafting.  Instead of the trade window closing, it remains open and you take raw materials and combine them.  Upon completion of craft, it returns to originator.

 

best previous example would be applying a proc to a pre-existing and completed item.  Alchemist has said proc and applies it directly to the item and there would be a coin charge for the alchemists services in that same transaction .  

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