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ACE_JackalBark

ACE Q&A for January - Official Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Not talking about polish. The design of the combat is bad in my opinion.

You can completely disagree with me and feel that combat is in a good place. I think you guys just are trying to justify why I think combat sucks, but it isn't for the right reasons.

Combat sucks because:

  • Classes don't feel unique. Everyone has CC, iFrame immunity, DPS, access to most of the same discplines which are often repeat skills of class/race skills.
  • Aiming is poor. It is too easy to land shots and not easy enough to define who you are attempting to shoot at.
  • Low skill ceiling - This is basically undeniable. What we have in Crowfall is considered a very low skill ceiling for most players. You don't feel like you have gotten any better playing a class. You can't grow, your starting ability is too close to your end game 5 months in ability.
  • Fail at making ranged classes - Playing an archer doesn't feel like an archer, raycasts are not the right way to create projectiles. It is a crap version of archery. Play Rust (same game engine) and shoot a bow, it should feel like this. Shooting spells feels lame. You don't feel like a mage because your fireball won't shoot if your reticle isn't over the enemy. You shoot a giant fireball nuke and it magically poofs in 10-15 feet. This dependence on raycasts and not physics based spells takes us away from "mage immersion" as I will call it. I feel like I can only be a mage in the right scenario and that isn't what being a mage is about.
  • Knight - This class is useless UNLESS you want to guard your castle gate all day long. This class does OK in choke points and sucks everywhere else.
  • No full Friendly Fire (even among guilds/groups) - This encourages zerg play. It also helps low skill players and hurts high skill players. (If you respond to this post saying there is full FF, you don't understand what I am referring to).
  • Templar - Honestly, just boring to play. You play it, tell me how I am wrong.
  • Healers - Low skill ceiling on healing abilities. Too many abilities do not require targeting and instant heal an entire group.

Remember in Vanilla WoW when dungeons used to be hard. You used to have to have a warrior tank and your mage and rogue had to CC monsters even on basic dungeons to pass it. Currently in WoW, you can do the same dungeons and faceroll your keyboard and you can beat it without a wipe.

We somehow skipped Vanilla WoW that required skill and was challenging to play and went to this crappy version to open ourselves to a larger target audience (like Blizzard did). Yet this game is a niche market for competitive PVP players. Yet it fails to excel at any aspect of competitive play. It has a low skill ceiling, it has limited friendly fire, it has Zerg promoting mechanics, it has no twitch aspect (required), it makes very little attempt to balance classes (watch the Q & A, we want to make fun abilities first and worry about balancing second.) This is not the mentality of competitive play design. Most games struggle with balance for years. I don't think people even understand the balancing issues this game will have due to the amount of skill combinations available and amount of disciplines.

I hope I am wrong about EVERYTHING.

I agree with a little of what you said, and disagree with quite a bit. Aiming isn't very good right now, but I don't think FPS-style aiming is a good idea. I don't think you should be required to lead slow projectiles into targets or be required to track a target with 100% accuracy, however I believe aiming shouldn't be as generous as it currently is. It seems a bit buggy in a way that I can be aiming at the model of someone or something and miss, but other times be aiming at nothing and connect. It needs some tuning, but I don't think it needs a difficulty increase.

Friendly Fire is the other mechanic I heavily disagree with. Your argument is that it encourages zerg pvp, but Crowfall is identified as a throne war siege mmo. In my eyes, 'throne war' and 'siege' scream large-scale PvP to me, and that's what I'm here for. Friendly fire could be an interesting mechanic for a campaign maybe, but overall I don't think it's a good idea for the general rule set of the game.

Past that, I agree with classes feeling very bland. Combat doesn't currently feel very satisfying and I'm having trouble finding counterplay with most kits. However, I'm confident this will change over time. Healing also doesn't feel very rewarding due to lack of class mechanics. Resource and cooldown management being the only evident mechanics is disappointing. I'd like to be punished for poor decision making and rewarded for skillful decision making through class mechanics.

Edited by SaranWrap

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Not talking about polish. The design of the combat is bad in my opinion.

Combat sucks because:

  • Classes don't feel unique. Everyone has CC, iFrame immunity, DPS, access to most of the same discplines which are often repeat skills of class/race skills.
  • Aiming is poor. It is too easy to land shots and not easy enough to define who you are attempting to shoot at.
  • Low skill ceiling - This is basically undeniable. What we have in Crowfall is considered a very low skill ceiling for most players. You don't feel like you have gotten any better playing a class. You can't grow, your starting ability is too close to your end game 5 months in ability.
  • Fail at making ranged classes - Playing an archer doesn't feel like an archer, raycasts are not the right way to create projectiles. It is a crap version of archery. Play Rust (same game engine) and shoot a bow, it should feel like this. Shooting spells feels lame. You don't feel like a mage because your fireball won't shoot if your reticle isn't over the enemy. You shoot a giant fireball nuke and it magically poofs in 10-15 feet. This dependence on raycasts and not physics based spells takes us away from "mage immersion" as I will call it. I feel like I can only be a mage in the right scenario and that isn't what being a mage is about.
  • Knight - This class is useless UNLESS you want to guard your castle gate all day long. This class does OK in choke points and sucks everywhere else.
  • No full Friendly Fire (even among guilds/groups) - This encourages zerg play. It also helps low skill players and hurts high skill players. (If you respond to this post saying there is full FF, you don't understand what I am referring to).
  • Templar - Honestly, just boring to play. You play it, tell me how I am wrong.
  • Healers - Low skill ceiling on healing abilities. Too many abilities do not require targeting and instant heal an entire group.

I hope I am wrong about EVERYTHING.

I cut out the parts I'm not responding to directly. The TL;DR here is that, if these are your problems with combat, then you are talking quite exactly about polish. The design of combat is not implemented yet, and what I took away from "we feel like combat is in a good place" is that, mechanically, all the pieces of combat function.

I agree that combat is kinda boring right now, but the distinct features and gameplay functionality that will make the game loop fun isn't what we're talking about - we're talking about "does combat flow feel correct" and "when I use 'stick it with the pointy end,' does the pointy end stick in it?"

You're talking about features and class-specific functionality, which I thought it had been made pretty clear aren't in yet.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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6 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Agreed. Please just continue developing the game. The information in these Q&A's is so worthless that I would rather the developers don't waste time on them. That is just me.

They are suppose to do one of these every month because of the KS pledge packages iirc. The questions get picked out of the private forums and they sadly don't pick the best questions out of there because they either cant or don't want to answer them at the moment.


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Not talking about polish. The design of the combat is bad in my opinion.

...

Remember in Vanilla WoW when dungeons used to be hard. You used to have to have a warrior tank and your mage and rogue had to CC monsters even on basic dungeons to pass it. Currently in WoW, you can do the same dungeons and faceroll your keyboard and you can beat it without a wipe.

We somehow skipped Vanilla WoW that required skill and was challenging to play and went to this crappy version to open ourselves to a larger target audience (like Blizzard did). Yet this game is a niche market for competitive PVP players. Yet it fails to excel at any aspect of competitive play. \

...

I hope I am wrong about EVERYTHING.

While Vanilla dungeons were difficult, the class mechanics were not.  Twitch?  Complex rotations?  No, not really.  Yet, some aspects of the game were indeed challenging.  How was that?

It is hard to argue that WoW Vanilla character and combat design wasn't simplistic and imbalanced and sometimes broken (its PvP, too, had zergs and OP classes). Bosses were hit point bags with few mechanics, and trash simply agroed easily, hit hard and was abundant.  But, as you say, the game was generally more difficult in comparison to its modern state, and that somehow was very satisfying.  I think perhaps the challenge you are looking for is not found primarily in the Vessel (ie class) you choose (and the complexity of its buttons), but in what you choose to do with that Vessel in relation to the opposition (and the larger game).  Sure, you can try to play Crowfall like a hero shooter, but you might be missing the point.  Crowfall, as far as I can tell, is not a balanced twitch arena--it is a sandbox MMORPG, i.e. a world in which the challenge you experience is directly proportional to the size of your ambitions.    

 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Another thing to keep in mind is PvE mechanics and combat aren't relevant when we're talking about a game that is meant to focus on PvP mechanics and combat. They will never be close to the same thing. WoW is irrelevant to even discuss in the context of Crowfall's combat. They're very different MMOs even down to a mechanical and design level.

It's like saying two games are similar because they have WASD movement controls or Auction Houses and there for are relevant to each other. It's dumb.

Vanilla WoW I never played. I started in Burning Crusade back in those days. Even during those times the game was extremely simple. Even raids felt easy for the most part. Raid dungeons in the majority of MMOs that have pve raids are just scripted dances that players make. It's why I find them mind numbingly boring. It's why the common meme joke of "don't stand in the fire" became popular and applies to pretty much every single raid dungeon in every single MMO that uses that kind of content. Perhaps a year or two after Crowfall is released there might be raid open world non-instanced raid dungeons on very large campaign world maps, but even at that point in Crowfall's life span, talking about WoW's combat in context to Crowfall's combat will still remain irrelevant.


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@ClockworkOrange

Everything in your list is a few design passes away from fixed. It's obviously not a quick process, but all of the things you mentioned are still the proof of concept place holders and WILL be iterated on. I'm not saying we shouldn't give them hell about pleb combat design, pre-alpha or otherwise, but this isn't the Titanic.

@KrakkenSmacken

First, thank you for your post about questions! You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Second, Blair and Halash are the builders here. Them talking about their wild iteration daydreams and combat testing mechanics is stuff that we honestly shouldn't see in an "Eyes on Design" Q&A. The "vision of combat" is something they only carry around one piece at a time. It's too raw and focused and cannot represent the final vision.

Edited by baerin
strike through

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18 hours ago, goose said:

I cut out the parts I'm not responding to directly. The TL;DR here is that, if these are your problems with combat, then you are talking quite exactly about polish. The design of combat is not implemented yet, and what I took away from "we feel like combat is in a good place" is that, mechanically, all the pieces of combat function.

You're talking about features and class-specific functionality, which I thought it had been made pretty clear aren't in yet.

13 hours ago, baerin said:

@ClockworkOrange

Everything in your list is a few design passes away from fixed. It's obviously not a quick process, but all of the things you mentioned are still the proof of concept place holders and WILL be iterated on. I'm not saying we shouldn't give them hell about pleb combat design, pre-alpha or otherwise, but this isn't the Titanic.

  • Classes don't feel unique. Everyone has CC, iFrame immunity, DPS, access to most of the same discplines which are often repeat skills of class/race skills.
    • Class Design - Not Polish.
  • Aiming is poor. It is too easy to land shots and not easy enough to define who you are attempting to shoot at.
    • Aiming Design - Polish can help, but if you continue reading you will see I disagree with their aiming design.
  • Low skill ceiling - This is basically undeniable. What we have in Crowfall is considered a very low skill ceiling for most players. You don't feel like you have gotten any better playing a class. You can't grow, your starting ability is too close to your end game 5 months in ability.
    • Skill Ceiling Design- Polish doesn't really play into this. Unless you are allowing Polish to be this giant collect all umbrella, which is just lying to yourself.
  • Fail at making ranged classes - Playing an archer doesn't feel like an archer, raycasts are not the right way to create projectiles. It is a crap version of archery. Play Rust (same game engine) and shoot a bow, it should feel like this. Shooting spells feels lame. You don't feel like a mage because your fireball won't shoot if your reticle isn't over the enemy. You shoot a giant fireball nuke and it magically poofs in 10-15 feet. This dependence on raycasts and not physics based spells takes us away from "mage immersion" as I will call it. I feel like I can only be a mage in the right scenario and that isn't what being a mage is about.
    • Design - They haven't made any indication that they will be adding physics based projectiles.
  • Knight - This class is useless UNLESS you want to guard your castle gate all day long. This class does OK in choke points and sucks everywhere else.
    • Class Design - The class has already been remade once and it made it worse (stamine knight).
  • No full Friendly Fire (even among guilds/groups) - This encourages zerg play. It also helps low skill players and hurts high skill players. (If you respond to this post saying there is full FF, you don't understand what I am referring to).
    • Friendly Fire Design - Nothing to do with Polish.
  • Templar - Honestly, just boring to play. You play it, tell me how I am wrong.
    • Class Design - Polish could mildly help.
  • Healers - Low skill ceiling on healing abilities. Too many abilities do not require targeting and instant heal an entire group.
    • Healer Design - Polish could again mildly help.

Again, you are welcome to disagree with my opinion. But I am complaining about the design, not the polish. Why you keep trying to say I am complaining about polish is beyond me. I can understand if you look at polish as a catch all of "well everything can be changed, so it isn't done. What I am talking about is design decisions they chose to implement. Yeah they could always change design, but this is the design that currently is in the game.

Also, if you think everything is a place holder, please stop giving your money to ACE. Any company who builds this much content as a "place holder" is wasting valuable development time.

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48 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Again, you are welcome to disagree with my opinion. But I am complaining about the design, not the polish. Why you keep trying to say I am complaining about polish is beyond me.

Honestly, the thing for me is that we've gone through this song and dance like four times before, and I just don't have the energy to give a detailed point-by-point response with more specific explanations of why I view almost everything on your list - at least in the context of your complaint - as "not a design choice," if not actually polish, because experience has taught me that the goalposts will mysteriously move if I address your concerns in a more specific and time-consuming manner, leading absolutely nowhere and wasting an hour of my time. So..I'll just leave it at this instead of defending my position and wait for the game to come out.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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My objective in all this @ClockworkOrange is not to convince you that Crowfall's in a good place, but to be rid of the mindset that "it's bad and it will never get better." Crowfall is coming along at it's slow and steady pace, and we give feed back to keep it on track towards the vision we're all invested in.

Edited by baerin
're

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51 minutes ago, baerin said:

My objective in all this @ClockworkOrange is not to convince you that Crowfall's in a good place, but to be rid of the mindset that "it's bad and it will never get better." Crowfall is coming along at it's slow and steady pace, and we give feed back to keep it on track towards the vision we're all invested in.

Crowfall may not be coming along quickly enough though.  Like I've said before, if they had another 3 years development time all would be well, but it's been years now and the combat, which is supposed to be the most important part of the game, is severely lacking and inferior to WoW at launch.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'll be interested to hear more about their thoughts because the state of combat and their perspective on it seems troubling to me. Some good info with the stats being put in though!

Edited by MetalGERE

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5 hours ago, goose said:

Honestly, the thing for me is that we've gone through this song and dance like four times before, and I just don't have the energy to give a detailed point-by-point response with more specific explanations of why I view almost everything on your list - at least in the context of your complaint - as "not a design choice," if not actually polish, because experience has taught me that the goalposts will mysteriously move if I address your concerns in a more specific and time-consuming manner, leading absolutely nowhere and wasting an hour of my time. So..I'll just leave it at this instead of defending my position and wait for the game to come out.

You engaged me, sorry to waste your time..... :unsure:

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

You engaged me, sorry to waste your time..... :unsure:

Honestly, that wasn't much of a criticism of you. :P You pointed out valid flaws in my argument because I was too lazy to make it properly, and I was trying to explain that I had done a poor job of explaining my position and didn't have the energy or poorly made socksgivery to do a better one.

Edit: poorly made socksgivery. Definitely what I typed. Gonna start using that in real life, too.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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5 hours ago, baerin said:

I only put confidence in the vision. The timeline is going to slide, just like it has for Star Citizen.

I consider myself optimistic believing we'll get soft launch by the end of the year. 

baerin, ignore him. In short, he doesn't really know what he's talking about and thinks everyone that's currently play testing the game are bad players in video games. This includes you. So if anything his words have the weight of a grain of sand in any discussion.


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20 hours ago, entityofsin said:

baerin, ignore him. In short, he doesn't really know what he's talking about and thinks everyone that's currently play testing the game are bad players in video games. This includes you. So if anything his words have the weight of a grain of sand in any discussion.

Words of wisdom. For what it's worth, VN still has not been seen in game. BTW, there is this amazing ignore option...you're welcome.


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Just now, armegeddon said:

Words of wisdom. For what it's worth, VN still has not been seen in game. BTW, there is this amazing ignore option...you're welcome.

I like to read his posts cause they make me laugh and feel great that I am more informed than someone who spams up a game's forum that he doesn't even play test or probably has no intention of playing on launch. :)


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