Silisquish

Time Bank: VIP newbies getting gently made love to by devs?

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VIP time banks only save up to 30 days per each training slot. But someone else in an old post I'm too lazy to dig up mentioned it would take 45-46 days of training in the first Class & Race skill "tab" thingy before unlocking the 3 others where they actually can train two things at once. What this means is you'd have to wait about 16 days into the game, logging on and training every day, before activating VIP or else your time banks would overflow and you'd lose training time.

Newbies who buy the game at launch and get their hands on a month of VIP to try it out won't know this unless they do thorough research. They'll probably activate VIP on the first day of playing. Their natural reaction to this problem will be to think they've been gently made love to by the game designers because half their first month of VIP will be wasted for Class and Race training purposes.

They might assume this was done intentionally and maliciously to get them to buy more VIP subs; this is not going to leave a good first impression for newbies... or even for early backers who might also not know about this. This is a simple problem that can easily be fixed by the devs in a few ways:

1) Change the VIP maximum time bank storage to 60 days. As an added bonus the few people that get hospitalised or have a baby or enter a 59-day crippling depression while subscribed would actually benefit from this. So would people who leave the game and then return to it (but those guys are traitors we don't care about them). The downside: You'll have to write some code so the game checks to see if you have a 2-month VIP sub or if you activated VIP for the second month so it knows whether to stop storing at 30 or 60.

2) Make it so the first skill tab thingy for Race & Class, and only the first, can have two skills in training at the same time. The downside: You'll have to modify some code, but it should be simpler to program than suggestion #1. [EDIT] doing this would also allow VIP'ers to train the first tab thingy of Race/Class 2x as fast, which may be undesirable; may lead to accusations of P2W.

3) Reduce the amount of skills or the time to train skills in the first skill tab thingies. The downside: You'll lose precious minutes of your life reviewing the time it currently takes to unlock the three other skill tab thingies and making sure your modifications mean they can be unlocked within 30 days. If you further modify the starting skill tree you'll have to modify it again so that, again, players can unlock the other skill trees within 30 days. Also maybe for some reason you don't want to cut down the training time as you think it's perfect the way it is?

 

EDIT: clarification: Someone calculated that it took 91-92 days to train all of the skills in the first skill tab. You need 50% completion to unlock the other tabs. So, you need approx. 46 days of continuous training, however the VIP time bank will only save 30 days out of those 46 so if you activate VIP as soon as your character is created you'll lose 16 days where you can't train a second skill and the second skill's time bank is overflowing. This means newbie VIP'ers either have to spend their first 16 days as non-VIP'ers or they lose half a month's worth of VIP benefit when it comes to training Class & Race skills (which is very harsh if you only have one month of VIP).

This a video (at 10m54s) where they talk about the Time Bank:

 

Edited by Silisquish

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vip also has the benefit of not having to reassign your training after the completion of every one pips on a node (e.g. clicking to train four times to complete five pips), which is frankly very annoying

Edited by Tinnis

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Yes, Tinnis I get the impression non-VIP'ers are expected to log in and play every day and as long as they do that they'll be fine. If their training stops when they log out at one pip they can use their time bank to get the other pips the next day but they'll start to get punished if they don't play or log on every day. If they were allowed to auto-train a full five pips they might get away with occasionally logging in every 2 days without losing much.

This way, the VIP expanded time bank means you can skip a day or two and not worry. That's a tangible benefit of VIP so they probably won't be changing that feature/limitation for non-VIPs any time soon.

Edited by Silisquish
added a phrase

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27 minutes ago, Silisquish said:

What this means is you'd have to wait about 16 days into the game, logging on and training every day, before activating VIP or else your time banks would overflow and you'd lose training time.

I am not sure what you are saying here, but if you are saying VIP subscribers will need to log in every day, you are mistaken.

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There has to be a benefit to VIP. I think they got it right. It doesn't mean you need to log in every 24 hours because that is based on where you are at in the skill tree. Later on, you may not have to log in except every few days.

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Let me clarify then: Someone calculated that it took 91-92 days to train all of the skills in the first skill tab. You need 50% completion to unlock the other tabs. So, you need approx. 46 days of continuous training, however the VIP time bank will only save 30 days out of those 46 so if you activate VIP as soon as your character is created you'll lose 16 days where you can't train a second skill and the second skill's time bank is overflowing. This means newbie VIP'ers either have to spend their first 16 days as non-VIP'ers or they lose half a month's worth of VIP benefit when it comes to training Class & Race skills (which is very harsh if you only have one month of VIP).

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The problem I'm describing seems like a mistake on the devs' part rather than a feature.

But some players might not see it that way and they'll feel cheated because they used their VIP immediately instead of waiting 16 days which is the optimal option for those who have 2+ months of VIP. (I'm assuming you can activate/consume it at will as it seems to be treated as an item).

In fact, if the second skill time bank disappears after your VIP membership runs out this would mean players who only have 1 month of VIP will effectively lose all of their second skill time in Class & Race, making it an even far bigger problem. (hopefully stored time won't disappear when you go non-VIP)

More importantly reviewers might blame the devs for this and accuse them of malicious intent; of somehow trying to punish those that only have a handful of VIP months so they'll bu more. In reality I'm 95% certain this is just a mistake on their part.

 

EDIT: The other problem is, if you have VIPs and you really care about optimal training do you really want to spend the first 16 days of the game in non-VIP just so you can use all of your second skill points? Why would the game itself force you to either do this or sacrifice points? It makes no sense.

Edited by Silisquish

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What this means is you'd have to wait about 16 days into the game, logging on and training every day, before activating VIP or else your time banks would overflow and you'd lose training time.

I've been deliberately avoiding training until 5.4 hits live.  I'll see get to see what happens first hand and report back.

Todd addressed this during that video above, (8:30). (You started the video too late, the question was answered)

"I think what we will have to do is speed you through the basics". I would guess that the easiest way to do that, will be to simply start every account, VIP or not, enough time bank to push to that 50% in each basic tree.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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OMG you're right! Yes, as long as the devs are aware of this problem I'm happy.

I think they'll either reduce total time required for Basics for everyone or give VIP'ers an advantage like the ability to double-train only the Class/Race Basic trees.

But because I'm paranoid there's still a small chance he meant something else. That's okay since the devs are supposed to read these posts right? So now they'll know about this problem if they didn't already.

EDIT: Notice my post dev-senpai!

d85.jpg

Edited by Silisquish

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They could easily give you the choice. One training in the line. One training the time bank.. So you get through basics twice as fast. I would be fine with this. :)

 

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As a whole as well I'm not too sold on the pips that now require you to login every day, I know EVE has this system, but currently this is far more familiar of EVE circa 2007. Whilst I like how the bank works, being totally honest, I'd much prefer a planning system outright, with VIP's allowed to plan further into the future.  The time bank could still exist, but in that case it steps in for those who go on longer breaks or who want to focus training 'tall'.  Tall training could be done by leaving one or two slots without training so they fill your bank, whilst one slot trains the skills you want and the user pours banked time into those skills.

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they have vaguely talked in the past about VIP having queuing between nodes, not sure if still a thing now time bank is a thing etc 

full VIP details not really disclosed yet

[also other things like VIP having an app/web access to do training instead of logging in to the client etc]

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Well I used to play a freemium game where I got premium and I realized, even when putting f2p blatant whale fishing nonsense aside, that I would sometimes wonder why I'd gotten premium when others could just pay no recurring costs and still have access to the game. Yet at the same time I understood full well that the free players probably felt a little cheated too.

Subscribers need to get benefits that make premium VIP objectively better than non-VIP, so the latter will feel left out and wonder how better things might have been had they subscribed from the start.

The non-prems get to play more or less the same game with little money investment so the premiums can end up occasionally questioning their sanity when they think about how much money they spent without technically having to.

I think you can't really win and satisfy everyone perfectly in a premium sub model, even a B2P model. The B2P aspect simply removes the excessive money-grubbing stupidity... most of the time (*cough Battlefront 2 cough*)

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I did those calculations!

tomes will be the catch up method if you forget a skill or 2 or more or if you leave the game for a few months, years or w/e.

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8 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I've been deliberately avoiding training until 5.4 hits live.  I'll see get to see what happens first hand and report back.

Todd addressed this during that video above, (8:30). (You started the video too late, the question was answered)

"I think what we will have to do is speed you through the basics". I would guess that the easiest way to do that, will be to simply start every account, VIP or not, enough time bank to push to that 50% in each basic tree.

 

I've been on 5.4 test and it only allows me to train 1 skill in Race and Class. I have 2 running on professions.

I'd personally love to see Basic tree slimmed down to 2 months total with 50% being 30 days to move on. To me Basic should get you in quickly so you can experience and feel the skills giving you some progression. If people see it takes ~90 days for 1 basic group then they might not even play. When I played Eve back in 07 the first month of skills seemed to go very fast and I could feel the changes. Increased mining yield, increased cpu/cap then increased refining, etc. It made me feel like the skills were working. Here however, I don't notice it because it takes so long.

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10 hours ago, jetah said:

I've been on 5.4 test and it only allows me to train 1 skill in Race and Class. I have 2 running on professions.

I'd personally love to see Basic tree slimmed down to 2 months total with 50% being 30 days to move on. To me Basic should get you in quickly so you can experience and feel the skills giving you some progression. If people see it takes ~90 days for 1 basic group then they might not even play. When I played Eve back in 07 the first month of skills seemed to go very fast and I could feel the changes. Increased mining yield, increased cpu/cap then increased refining, etc. It made me feel like the skills were working. Here however, I don't notice it because it takes so long.

I agree.  It's part of the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to keep up with training until VIP kicked in, simply because I can't be arsed to login every day, only to have it reset when open Beta starts.

I think ACE made a base line blunder on starting the smallest training node time at 3 days.  I don't even know in what world that sounds good on paper. It gives you zero ability to create smaller resolution training nodes that would be a quick add on, and locks in assumptions about training time that should have been left more fluid.

I have no clue why they would not start at a hour resolution, and then climb up from there.  It's not like there is a shortage of numbers above 1 to label tiers. A Faboccini sequence would quickly scale to days anyway.  If they had done that, they could have easily made a pile of early nodes that only take an hour to finish, give visible results during the first play session, and after your first 24 hour time bank, you could be into the second set of skills and able to use VIP.  

Lets hope they solve the issue before launch. 

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12 hours ago, jetah said:

I've been on 5.4 test and it only allows me to train 1 skill in Race and Class. I have 2 running on professions.

I'd personally love to see Basic tree slimmed down to 2 months total with 50% being 30 days to move on. To me Basic should get you in quickly so you can experience and feel the skills giving you some progression. If people see it takes ~90 days for 1 basic group then they might not even play. When I played Eve back in 07 the first month of skills seemed to go very fast and I could feel the changes. Increased mining yield, increased cpu/cap then increased refining, etc. It made me feel like the skills were working. Here however, I don't notice it because it takes so long.

If harvesting you dive for the gathering specialist in 1 week and unlock excavation and harvesting...   in two more weeks plus the critical amount node in the racial basics gives you significant gathering skills over a noob in just 203 weeks so this IS equivalent to what you have said about early Eve.   I believe combat stats as well will be significant over a noob...   in 3-4 weeks you have 3% more crit chance 3% more cc duration and 3% cc duration reduction...  those alone without stats that boost dps give you advantage.  Players not training gathering only get 3-4 doobers with a gathering disc, trained players in 3-4 weeks get 6-8...   basically twice the yield and start getting key additives and colors.   At 2 months we are getting significant purple ores...   I cannot see how you think this is slow...  imo it is too fast...   crafters cannot even come close to using the colored resources to full effect.

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This may have been covered.

Day 1 of game will allow you train 4 total skills with VIP at once under the current model.

  • 1 skill in Race
  • 1 skill in Class
  • 2 skills in different trees from either Combat/Crafting/Harvesting.

 

The calculation/time it takes to reach 50% training in Race/Class gets a bit fuzzy but lets assume that 90 days is correct for the basic trees in Race/Class. You only need 50% training to move to the next level in the tree, but also don't forget that each skill trains faster for the first 50% than it does for the last and that you only need 50% training in a particular skill until you can move to the next one in line. I have not double checked but I will see how it works with my time bank for 5.4, but an assumption would be for a tier 1 skill (3days) you would get the first 50% in 1 day of total training. This would allow a player to theoretically move on to the 2nd level tree in about 20+ days. At this point the VIP player will be able to train 2 Race, 2 Class, and 2 from either Combat/Craft/Harvest. 

Non-Vipers will be able to train 3 total skills.

  • 1 skill in Race
  • 1 Skill in Class
  • 1 skill in either Combat/Crafting/Harvesting

 

Edited by Verot

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29 minutes ago, Frykka said:

If harvesting you dive for the gathering specialist in 1 week and unlock excavation and harvesting...   in two more weeks plus the critical amount node in the racial basics gives you significant gathering skills over a noob in just 203 weeks so this IS equivalent to what you have said about early Eve.   I believe combat stats as well will be significant over a noob...   in 3-4 weeks you have 3% more crit chance 3% more cc duration and 3% cc duration reduction...  those alone without stats that boost dps give you advantage.  Players not training gathering only get 3-4 doobers with a gathering disc, trained players in 3-4 weeks get 6-8...   basically twice the yield and start getting key additives and colors.   At 2 months we are getting significant purple ores...   I cannot see how you think this is slow...  imo it is too fast...   crafters cannot even come close to using the colored resources to full effect.

 I'm still curious to see what the stats on a fully trained character look like, are we talking total crit chance through training of 30+%. I'll need to see what the crit cap is the next time I log in.

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