VIKINGNAIL

Get rid of the passive skill system.

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It's uninteresting and unengaging, perhaps ACE is too invested in this by now that they won't get rid of it but the game would be infinitely better if it had been treated like diablo2 ladder seasons.

The system should have been giving people points over time in each individual campaign as it goes on, letting players try to stay ahead of specific campaign metas, and then letting them do it all over again in the next campaign.  This would have also kept the game feeling more fresh as people had more flexibility to truly deviate in separate campaigns and try to build and counterbuild each other, much like the reset button on rts games.  

I was the guy trying to tell his gaming pals to prepare for CF and how much potential it had when it was first announced.  In regards to the passive system the comments I get from them now are "it's boring, eve sucked, why are they copying eve?"  "The timebank is a bandaid fix for a bad system, why are they just investing more and more into this bad system instead of going with more interesting and fun ones".

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Nah.

its not practical for them to scrap the system, and I doubt they have the time to develop another intricate system thet runs parallel. Sure “sacrificing” is basically alternative progression, but it’s actually quite simplistic. I have a love / hate relationship with the passive system, but It’s here to stay.

Edited by Helix

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6 minutes ago, Helix said:

Nah.

its not practical for them to scrap the system, and I doubt they have the time to develop another intricate system thet runs parallel. Sure “sacrificing” is basically alternative progression, but it’s actually quite simplistic. I have a love / hate relationship with the passive system, but It’s here to stay.

The game needed the quest system that they call the sacrifice system, that makes sense, it's an active system.  

And yes the passive system is here to stay, but they could still modify it to work on specific campaigns instead of having it be an overarching system.  The chances of them doing this, probably next to zero, but it's just another part of the game people are going to not be very enthused about/may dislike enough not to play, once this game reaches the public, and just another thing people like me will have to give them the "told you so" on. 

What they are doing now is bad, it's going to make the game less than what it could/should be, and the solution is not hard to identify.  Maybe hard to finance now, but seriously if they were willing to overhaul combat they should look to overhaul all of the unintuitive major aspects of their game.  

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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24 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The game needed the quest system that they call the sacrifice system, that makes sense, it's an active system.  

And yes the passive system is here to stay, but they could still modify it to work on specific campaigns instead of having it be an overarching system.  The chances of them doing this, probably next to zero, but it's just another part of the game people are going to not be very enthused about/may dislike enough not to play, once this game reaches the public, and just another thing people like me will have to give them the "told you so" on. 

What they are doing now is bad, it's going to make the game less than what it could/should be, and the solution is not hard to identify.  Maybe hard to finance now, but seriously if they were willing to overhaul combat they should look to overhaul all of the unintuitive major aspects of their game.  

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

Edited by Frykka

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They should just time gate the activation of skill training based on how "deep" it is in the skill tree.  So, day 1 of a campaign you only get the benefit of nodes you have trained that are 1 layer deep.  Progressing throughout the campaign.

Starting day 1 with 12 PIP crafters and PH5 gathers is very strange.

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8 minutes ago, Frykka said:

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

Winner!

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4 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

They should just time gate the activation of skill training based on how "deep" it is in the skill tree.  So, day 1 of a campaign you only get the benefit of nodes you have trained that are 1 layer deep.  Progressing throughout the campaign.

Starting day 1 with 12 PIP crafters and PH5 gathers is very strange.

That won't happen until after 6-12 months of training....

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1 minute ago, Weebles said:

That won't happen until after 6-12 months of training....

So past 6-12 months of game release campaigns will be changed in incredibly fundamental ways that basically circumvent any progression of gear (including the unlocking of recipes).  Just doesn't seem right to me.

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We have a dozen of these threads with the same nonsensical argument "do this because this game did it", or the "my friends don't like it" argument which is trying to convince us 99% of the people who might play this game feel the same way. It's all very boring, repetitive and tired. 

Much like the skill system in Crowfall.

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The only problem I have with the skill trees is they take so long to go through.  Personally, I would like it to be shorter and to grant you only a certain amount of training points so you can customize your skill set more and get that feeling of experimentation.  But since its tied to the overall account, I guess it has to be this way.  If it could be at the actual character level that would make it work.  

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12 minutes ago, Joyeuse said:

The only problem I have with the skill trees is they take so long to go through.  Personally, I would like it to be shorter and to grant you only a certain amount of training points so you can customize your skill set more and get that feeling of experimentation.  But since its tied to the overall account, I guess it has to be this way.  If it could be at the actual character level that would make it work.  

In reality that time will feel insignificant compared to the action going on in the game...  The passive skill tree is significantly faster than previous tests due to only needing 4 pips to progress most nodes...   Remember you only do this ONCE in the lifetime of the game.   You will continue to grind new vessel levels as a character advancement as you add more class/race combos to your build "quiver."

Edited by Frykka

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I think the passive training isnt supposed to be a focus here. I mean, unless they add more interesting stuff like unlocking powers or maybe bring the promotions back i cant see it getting fun enough to matter. It will just stay as something in the background that no one really cares about...

There is no Meta to be found here. Will training in skinning ever be a meta? farming? Even the more combat oriented stuff is mostly stats stuff so... *shrug*

I honestly think they should work on make the sacrifice lvling system more interesting. Using it just to increase stats is a huuuuuge waste IMO.

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I think it's important to have character persistence and the skill training system allows that. That system isn't the focus of the game by any means, and the only thing I would really like to see is a campaign with a rule similar to what @Kirchhoff said: limit access to trained skills in the tree based on time passed in the campaign. It'd be interesting to see at least once. 

Past that, the passive skill system allows players to earn skill points in trees that they want to use but may not want to grind. In other MMO's, you'd need to craft a billion daggers to level up that Blacksmithing stat. This is why I approve of a system that is present in EVE and now Crowfall. If I understand your idea, you would suggest giving people stat points over time and allow them to allocate those stat points at the start of each new campaign. That'd be great in a lot of ways, but it would encourage adjusting to each new patch for flavor of the month classes or specializations which is unhealthy I feel. If people were deep into class/race trees when Wood Elf/Ranger became incredibly strong, do you believe those people would benefit from instantly rolling Wood Elf Ranger instead of the class they were specialized in? 

Similarly, "EVE sucked, it's boring" is simply an opinion of someone who didn't enjoy the game. There are many people over the span of 15 years who would disagree with that opinion.

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Do you know why I don't play MOBAs? Because I don't like that feeling of starting new every time I play. Leveling the exact same character, the exact same way, even if it's just a different order, every day. It's boring and repetitive. It has its supporters and fans, its niche. This game isn't that. Too much to do, too many skills to train, for it to be. Plus, the issue with EVE Online isn't the skill system. If anything, it's the active hate some of the player base has against another of the player base for having badwrongfun.

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It's uninteresting and unengaging, perhaps ACE is too invested in this by now that they won't get rid of it but the game would be infinitely better if it had been treated like diablo2 ladder seasons.

The system should have been giving people points over time in each individual campaign as it goes on, letting players try to stay ahead of specific campaign metas, and then letting them do it all over again in the next campaign.  This would have also kept the game feeling more fresh as people had more flexibility to truly deviate in separate campaigns and try to build and counterbuild each other, much like the reset button on rts games.  

I was the guy trying to tell his gaming pals to prepare for CF and how much potential it had when it was first announced.  In regards to the passive system the comments I get from them now are "it's boring, eve sucked, why are they copying eve?"  "The timebank is a bandaid fix for a bad system, why are they just investing more and more into this bad system instead of going with more interesting and fun ones".

No.

If you don't like the vision the game is taking, then you should quit now while you're ahead.

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1 hour ago, Kirchhoff said:

So past 6-12 months of game release campaigns will be changed in incredibly fundamental ways that basically circumvent any progression of gear (including the unlocking of recipes).  Just doesn't seem right to me.

This campaign progression you talk about is suposed to be achieved by other ways, not from skill training but through the seasons changes

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/campaign/#faq-11

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I get what you are saying and think there is a valid point here, but the bigger issue is even if you replace passive training with active training, we have a boring skill progression system. This is the underlying problem in my opinion. Every game that has had a low power curve of leveling ruins the entire point of leveling or progressing.

Think of all those games that you level up and your get more HP and health and maybe a few stats auto level, but you don't actively level your character. You don't even care when you level because you don't feel any different. Sure the numbers have changed, but everything you do and the way you play the game stays the same.

This is the big problem we have in Crowfall. This slow power progression gives me no incentive to log in to the game. I am also not even excited about training skills because I don't feel any different. I am also time locked to achieving certain progression unlocks which means i have to wait X days to get this ability. Even if I play 24 hours in a day, I still have to wait X days to play the game. The passive system is a small part of the problem, the greater part is the underlying progression system. Passive leveling would be acceptable of the underlying progression was better.

2 hours ago, Frykka said:

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

I disagree which is easy to do when you attempt to speak for a giant group of gamers. The best part of WoW PVP is Arena and BGs.

If I get to speak for the entire group, I would say we Sandbox MMOPvP Players hate low skill ceilings. PVPers like to flex their epeen and to do so there has to be a high skill ceiling or there is nothing to flex because fights are determined by group composition and character abilities. Skill didn't win the fight, the outcome of the fight was easily predicted before the fight even started. How am I supposed to flex my epeen or my guilds epeen in Crowfall? You look stupid when you brag about winning a fight that was 10 v 5. This will be the majority of fights in Crowfall. Outnumbered fights where the Zerg always wins.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

I disagree which is easy to do when you attempt to speak for a giant group of gamers. The best part of WoW PVP is Arena and BGs.

If I get to speak for the entire group, I would say we Sandbox MMOPvP Players hate low skill ceilings. PVPers like to flex their epeen and to do so there has to be a high skill ceiling or there is nothing to flex because fights are determined by group composition and character abilities. Skill didn't win the fight, the outcome of the fight was easily predicted before the fight even started. How am I supposed to flex my epeen or my guilds epeen in Crowfall? You look stupid when you brag about winning a fight that was 10 v 5. This will be the majority of fights in Crowfall. Outnumbered fights where the Zerg always wins.

I don't brag... so I have no ability to look stupid, that is the realm of epeen.   I don't need to and neither does any single player in CF...   the bragging rights go to the campaign winning guild or faction and not to any single player or piece of the puzzle.  Leave that stupid crap to arena games.    I don't speak for any giant group, I speak for what I know to be a large contingent of Crowfall's core player type... those that enjoyed and fought in Shadowbane.

Just like real "geniuses and smart people" do not generally go around telling people that they are very smart, good PvPers do not go around telling people how good they are....

 

Edited by Frykka

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12 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I don't brag... so I have no ability to look stupid, that is the realm of epeen.   I don't need to and neither does any single player in CF...   the bragging rights go to the campaign winning guild or faction and not to any single player or piece of the puzzle.  Leave that stupid crap to arena games.    I don't speak for any giant group, I speak for what I know to be a large contingent of Crowfall's core player type... those that enjoyed and fought in Shadowbane.

But this goes back to my point. The campaign will be won by the largest guild and that was easily predicted so there is no ability to brag. No ability to brag by any player base, group base or guild base ruins competetive PVP games. Even if you are a humble person on video games, you still want to win. When your victory is only achieved by having more members than everyone else it turns into a very shallow victory. How many campaigns can you lie to yourself that you deserved it? How many campaigns can smaller guilds keep joining knowing they have no chance at beating the larger guilds?

I used to think Chaos/Order/Balance was a stupid campaign mode. The more and more I realize the largest guild will win every campaign, the more I see the need for this campaign mode.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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