VIKINGNAIL

Get rid of the passive skill system.

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28 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

But this goes back to my point. The campaign will be won by the largest guild and that was easily predicted so there is no ability to brag. No ability to brag by any player base, group base or guild base ruins competetive PVP games. Even if you are a humble person on video games, you still want to win. When your victory is only achieved by having more members than everyone else it turns into a very shallow victory. How many campaigns can you lie to yourself that you deserved it? How many campaigns can smaller guilds keep joining knowing they have no chance at beating the larger guilds?

I used to think Chaos/Order/Balance was a stupid campaign mode. The more and more I realize the largest guild will win every campaign, the more I see the need for this campaign mode.

Yes, faction play has it limitations.   I would bet that there will be limits on faction choice in joining so the 3 sides remain more or less competitively even in numbers.   In GvG though alliances will shift and guilds will cup up to take down the zerg just like in Shadowbane...   The thing is that zergs generally do not last long in GvG because it causes a shift to the extent that to take down the zerg, the rest of the server will team up and then break back apart once the zerg is destroyed.  We did this many times in SB.

Edited by Frykka

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Seems to me you are focusing the whole thing at the tactics level (which is the main focus of arenas and bgs), and neglecting the whole strategic plan.

 

Yes, it's true. The current passive skill system makes it hard to adjust your build in a short time (or your group/guild ones), which may kinda penalize your tactics skill... But it's not a fully negative thing. It does benefit other skills like planning ahead, the capacity of adaption or diplomacy/scheming. 

 

This system lets you with choices. Do you choose for a more versatile build, easily adaptable to most situations, but hardly the best for any specific ones? Or do you go for a top build specially designed for playing specific situations, knowingly it might work more as a handicap for other moments?

 

There will still be things you can brag about. Just not only the ones you would brag from arenas and bgs.

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

I don't speak for any giant group, I speak for what I know to be a large contingent of Crowfall's core player type... those that enjoyed and fought in Shadowbane.

Don't have to have played Shadowbane to be part of that core player type. Results matter than words when it comes to how you do in anything competitive, video game or real life. :)

Kind of wish certain people would stop trying to act like they speak for everyone else in the community. Don't you agree? Seems to be a lot of that going on in these forums the past few days.

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17 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Kind of wish certain people would stop trying to act like they speak for everyone else in the community. Don't you agree? Seems to be a lot of that going on in these forums the past few days.

I'd say you speak for nearly the whole community while whishing it

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4 hours ago, Frykka said:

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

Who is this "we" you speak of?  Which sandboxes have you been a pvp player in?  Your nature is transparent here, people that think arenas are meaningless when they bring forth the top skill in PvP are just showing inexperience in competitive play.  You seem to think arenas are only 1v1?  Have you ever achieved a high rating in any team-based arena game?  What is your niche?  Faction campaigns?  Mine is dregs with full FF and things not being easy for joe the pleb who can't help but FF his groupmates if full FF is in the game.  

4 hours ago, Scree said:

We have a dozen of these threads with the same nonsensical argument "do this because this game did it", or the "my friends don't like it" argument which is trying to convince us 99% of the people who might play this game feel the same way. It's all very boring, repetitive and tired. 

Much like the skill system in Crowfall.

Yea doing passive because eve did it is very nonsensical, completely different games.  

3 hours ago, Stehlen said:

Do you know why I don't play MOBAs? Because I don't like that feeling of starting new every time I play. Leveling the exact same character, the exact same way, even if it's just a different order, every day. It's boring and repetitive. It has its supporters and fans, its niche. This game isn't that. Too much to do, too many skills to train, for it to be. Plus, the issue with EVE Online isn't the skill system. If anything, it's the active hate some of the player base has against another of the player base for having badwrongfun.

MOBAs aren't a niche, they are the mainstream.  

2 hours ago, entityofsin said:

No.

If you don't like the vision the game is taking, then you should quit now while you're ahead.

This game's vision changed multiple times before you ever had any clue that this game existed, you should really look into what you are talking about, you seem consistently incorrect about things.  What they have now is a product that is heading in a subpar direction, if we had just used your naïve mentality and accepted things as they are then we would have accepted their terrible combat vision, but no, people like me (I was the first) spoke up about how poor their combat was, then others realized it months later and they changed the combat.  Yay, still not great, but much better than it was before.  

2 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

I get what you are saying and think there is a valid point here, but the bigger issue is even if you replace passive training with active training, we have a boring skill progression system. This is the underlying problem in my opinion. Every game that has had a low power curve of leveling ruins the entire point of leveling or progressing.

Think of all those games that you level up and your get more HP and health and maybe a few stats auto level, but you don't actively level your character. You don't even care when you level because you don't feel any different. Sure the numbers have changed, but everything you do and the way you play the game stays the same.

This is the big problem we have in Crowfall. This slow power progression gives me no incentive to log in to the game. I am also not even excited about training skills because I don't feel any different. I am also time locked to achieving certain progression unlocks which means i have to wait X days to get this ability. Even if I play 24 hours in a day, I still have to wait X days to play the game. The passive system is a small part of the problem, the greater part is the underlying progression system. Passive leveling would be acceptable of the underlying progression was better.

I disagree which is easy to do when you attempt to speak for a giant group of gamers. The best part of WoW PVP is Arena and BGs.

If I get to speak for the entire group, I would say we Sandbox MMOPvP Players hate low skill ceilings. PVPers like to flex their epeen and to do so there has to be a high skill ceiling or there is nothing to flex because fights are determined by group composition and character abilities. Skill didn't win the fight, the outcome of the fight was easily predicted before the fight even started. How am I supposed to flex my epeen or my guilds epeen in Crowfall? You look stupid when you brag about winning a fight that was 10 v 5. This will be the majority of fights in Crowfall. Outnumbered fights where the Zerg always wins.

 

 

It's not really truly active training, it's still time-based point allocation, with a limited set of points, it just happens on a campaign level instead of this slow persistent account level stuff we have now, also with my system there is no need for skill tomes and time banks and that sort of convolution that has no business being in a game where the purpose of passive training is supposed to be convenient, easy, and not tedious.  Any system that is implemented will be gamed by the min/maxers, but the skill tomes and time banks are just a bandaid fix for a problem they already know will exist, when they could have just went with a better system and avoided the problem altogether.  

I think there are different breeds of sandbox mmopvp players, there are the old school ones that remember what red=dead means and then there are the kiddy pool ones that want to feel like they were one of the boys but they want all these convenient and softened rules so they can survive too.  But yes I understand what you are saying, and great pvpers hate low skill-ceilings, why wouldn't they?  Low skill-ceilings just make it easier for unskilled players to remain competitive, when in a gritty world your talents should be what decides your fate, whether they are in-battle talents, political and social talents etc.  The problem with CF is that it is completely neutering the in-battle skill-ceiling so that everyone can feel relevant in-battle.  Which is handholdy.  

2 hours ago, Frykka said:

I don't brag... so I have no ability to look stupid, that is the realm of epeen.   I don't need to and neither does any single player in CF...   the bragging rights go to the campaign winning guild or faction and not to any single player or piece of the puzzle.  Leave that stupid crap to arena games.    I don't speak for any giant group, I speak for what I know to be a large contingent of Crowfall's core player type... those that enjoyed and fought in Shadowbane.

Just like real "geniuses and smart people" do not generally go around telling people that they are very smart, good PvPers do not go around telling people how good they are....

 

Michael Jordan let everyone know how good he is, this isn't Barney, real pvpers will destroy you and never let you hear the end of it, they will crush you and stomp you until you learn to get good, that's what the dregs should be at least, I know you are terrified of such a notion though.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Thevo said:

Seems to me you are focusing the whole thing at the tactics level (which is the main focus of arenas and bgs), and neglecting the whole strategic plan.

 

Yes, it's true. The current passive skill system makes it hard to adjust your build in a short time (or your group/guild ones), which may kinda penalize your tactics skill... But it's not a fully negative thing. It does benefit other skills like planning ahead, the capacity of adaption or diplomacy/scheming. 

 

This system lets you with choices. Do you choose for a more versatile build, easily adaptable to most situations, but hardly the best for any specific ones? Or do you go for a top build specially designed for playing specific situations, knowingly it might work more as a handicap for other moments?

 

There will still be things you can brag about. Just not only the ones you would brag from arenas and bgs.

The choices this system has aren't really as deep as they appear to be.  

11 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

Don't have to have played Shadowbane to be part of that core player type. Results matter than words when it comes to how you do in anything competitive, video game or real life. :)

Kind of wish certain people would stop trying to act like they speak for everyone else in the community. Don't you agree? Seems to be a lot of that going on in these forums the past few days.

Who exactly is trying to speak for everyone else?  I hope you don't mean me, any objective person can understand that I do not try to speak for most people on these forums.  But like I've suggested to you many times, do some research on the game, you don't seem to see how things all tie together.  

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5 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

MOBAs aren't a niche, they are the mainstream.  

What definition are you going off of? Because what I see is a specialized market. In other words, it could pretty much apply to just about any genre of game. FPS fulfills a niche, RPG does too, etc. Then again, I am pedantic. 

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14 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The system should have been giving people points over time in each individual campaign as it goes on, letting players try to stay ahead of specific campaign metas, and then letting them do it all over again in the next campaign.

Even with the current system, I don't see why they can't add CW's that do this or similar.

Have a account wide general training setup and an optional per-CW setup. While in the EK or "Permanent Training" CW's we use the passive system as old as the account. When going to "Fresh and Funky Fun Training" CW we get some form of max points to spend or sped up training over X time.

Obviously it adds more for devs to do, but seems totally within their capabilities that would offer more ways to play to more types of players.

Really seems easy as just another set of player numbers to have going, not unlike games with multiple servers with multiple characters per each. If I can have 50 characters in a MMO, why not 2 training totals?

13 hours ago, Frykka said:

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

As a "sandbox MMOPvP player" I disagree. I enjoy being relatively equal with others and having my effort/time/skill outweigh random RNG and passive vertical stat accumilation. 

Passive Training is not the solution if you dislike leveling and questing, it is an option. Having neither or VN suggestion are also options.

Video games are meaningless if you want to go there. Bunch of pixels in the magical cloud...

If you believe individualism > the team in arena/lobby based games, you clearly have little to no experience with them. Heck, eSports are the equivalent to other pro sports when it comes to group accomplishment and community support.

If you idea of non-epeen team work is SB and the "friendly" spirit of that community....lul?

13 hours ago, Kirchhoff said:

They should just time gate the activation of skill training based on how "deep" it is in the skill tree.  So, day 1 of a campaign you only get the benefit of nodes you have trained that are 1 layer deep.  Progressing throughout the campaign.

Starting day 1 with 12 PIP crafters and PH5 gathers is very strange.

This would be interesting.

With objective/trigger based winning, might give less trained accounts a chance to overtake the older ones.

Agree that starting CW with day 1 and day 4020 seems odd.

12 hours ago, Frykka said:

In reality that time will feel insignificant compared to the action going on in the game...  The passive skill tree is significantly faster than previous tests due to only needing 4 pips to progress most nodes...   Remember you only do this ONCE in the lifetime of the game.   You will continue to grind new vessel levels as a character advancement as you add more class/race combos to your build "quiver."

To me this makes the system have less value, especially for those that don't want to train everything or even more than one path. If I want to be a Duelist PVPer, might options are rather limited. Self imposed, but still limited. Once I max them out I can... keep doing the same thing over and over without any "permanent" progression. If it's once in a lifetime then it's just time locked leveling that instead of grinding you wait out. Same difference and pointless stat stacking.

12 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I think the passive training isnt supposed to be a focus here. I mean, unless they add more interesting stuff like unlocking powers or maybe bring the promotions back i cant see it getting fun enough to matter. It will just stay as something in the background that no one really cares about...

There is no Meta to be found here. Will training in skinning ever be a meta? farming? Even the more combat oriented stuff is mostly stats stuff so... *shrug*

I honestly think they should work on make the sacrifice lvling system more interesting. Using it just to increase stats is a huuuuuge waste IMO.

Which are all issues. If it's just some lackluster system running in the background, why bother? Without Meta to keep things fresh, will grow stale. Without the ability to grind out different options, we have Disciplines as the only real variation beyond particular race/class/discipline combos getting buffs/nerfs and people doing their best to flock to them. Just to hit the time/crafting restrictions.

11 hours ago, SaranWrap said:

That'd be great in a lot of ways, but it would encourage adjusting to each new patch for flavor of the month classes or specializations which is unhealthy I feel. If people were deep into class/race trees when Wood Elf/Ranger became incredibly strong, do you believe those people would benefit from instantly rolling Wood Elf Ranger instead of the class they were specialized in? 

To me this is a fun aspect of gaming. Call it Meta, Min/Max, Fotm or other buzzy terms, but having access to everything (or close) putting together what I find ideal and running with it can be great or less great. Vs only having access to limited options with others locked behind time gates.

As is, training isn't exciting and doesn't really make someone play differently, just the typical ZZzzzz stat gains found in PVE leveling games. You become "stronger" but not "different."

Although non-combat does open up recipes and options which makes it unfair imo.

11 hours ago, Stehlen said:

Do you know why I don't play MOBAs? Because I don't like that feeling of starting new every time I play. Leveling the exact same character, the exact same way, even if it's just a different order, every day. It's boring and repetitive. 

Isn't that what CF will be like?

Assuming one obtains Vessels that go with the race/classes they've trained, you start a CW and go about doing the same basic steps over and over. Disciplines might get swapped around, but they don't drastically change gameplay (most at least). Because even Disciplines have ties to Training as well so if you go down the Ranged Caster path, you likely aren't going to be using a Bow or Sword as much. Training is the start of the restrictions.

You can swap, train, play anything else whenever, but same can be said for a MOBA without any time gates or power gains involved.

10 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

You look stupid when you brag about winning a fight that was 10 v 5. This will be the majority of fights in Crowfall. Outnumbered fights where the Zerg always wins.

Surely all CF campaigns will be decided by the high skilled strategy masters working together to overcome the greater challenges :rolleyes:

I'll just forget about age of account + training, VIP, cash shop CW items, trading cash shop items for CW items, import of high tier goods/resources....

10 hours ago, Frykka said:

I speak for what I know to be a large contingent of Crowfall's core player type... those that enjoyed and fought in Shadowbane.

What percent of CF's total launch player based do you see being composed of former SB players?

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9 hours ago, Stehlen said:

What definition are you going off of? Because what I see is a specialized market. In other words, it could pretty much apply to just about any genre of game. FPS fulfills a niche, RPG does too, etc. Then again, I am pedantic. 

My definition is based on the fact that 2 of the most played online PC games are mobas.  FPS is mainstream too, as is rts, but yes some of them within those genres try to be a lot different than the rest, you could call bloodline champions or bloodrite niche, you could also call crowfall niche because it's very different from mainstream mmorpgs.  

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17 hours ago, Thevo said:

This campaign progression you talk about is suposed to be achieved by other ways, not from skill training but through the seasons changes

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/campaign/#faq-11

Quote

A ‘restart mechanic’ is exactly that: a way of returning the game to a start-state, so players will remain interested in playing the game. It is a necessary ingredient to making the game work over time.

To illustrate this problem, we like to use the “Uncle Bob” analogy.

Imagine that a family gets together once a year for a game of “Risk”. Only this version of “Risk” has NO restart mechanic. Instead, they cover the board at the end of the evening until the next session begins the following year.. What happens over time?

The beginning of the game is fun. Everyone is having a good time.

Fast forward 2 hours: Uncle Bob starts to win. Conflict is good, so people are still engaged.

Fast forward 5 hours: Uncle Bob presses the advantage. By the end of that session, Bob effectively owns the board.

Fast forward two years: Same game. Uncle Bob is now an unassailable tyrant and has been for as long as anyone can remember.

By this point, the other players (i.e. everyone who ISN’T Uncle Bob) have stopped showing up for the annual “Risk” sessions. Why? Because the game isn’t fun. They know they don’t stand a chance.

If a new player was to join the game (assuming that was possible), what would happen? They would lose. Bob would snuff them out instantly. And they would quit, too.

That’s the problem with a strategy game. Without a restart mechanic, once the victory condition is met the game is over. Eventually, even Uncle Bob is bored -- because he hasn’t faced a challenge in so long! The idea might sound alluring (and Bob won’t give up by choice; that isn’t human nature) but if he isn’t having fun, he’ll eventually quit as well.

In a persistent world, we call this phenomenon “server stagnation”. The game is incredibly fun – right up until someone wins. Then, unless there is a way to start over again, the game stagnates and everyone quits.

 

Uncle bog is a problem when you have fully trained people in campaigns on day 1.  Like, a huge problem.  While new players are struggling to get 3 white ore from nodes, uncle Bob is taking down motherlodes with 30 ore and lots of color.  And when no one even has recipes for advanced weapons (except Bob), guess who wins combat?

The problem is, like 90% of crafting/gathering progression is in the skill tree.  The combat stats are only like 20% of your character power (or whatever they settle on).  Furthermore, having 20% more combat stats doesn't change the game fundamentally, it just gives you a small boost.

Edited by Kirchhoff

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I think the passive skill system is fine. Like yah it's boring and what not...but it's supposed to just be the equivalent of leveling in other MMOs. Let it be that, just let it be a background stat gain.

I think what most people are looking for is active customization in the skill tree...but all that campaign to campaign customization and experimentation will *hopefully* be achieved through the stuff you will get in the CW's: advantages/disadvantages, disciplines, vessels, gear, etc. 

Let those pieces be this active customization for your character. If anything I think the passive system should just be cleaned up with maybe a few interesting final nodes to somewhat specialize your account. Imo the majority of work needed for this issue will be in giving players a fun, interesting, and unique in-game customization experience with easy entry for newer players and a lot of depth for veterans. 

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4 hours ago, Kirchhoff said:

Uncle bog is a problem when you have fully trained people in campaigns on day 1.  Like, a huge problem.  While new players are struggling to get 3 white ore from nodes, uncle Bob is taking down motherlodes with 30 ore and lots of color.  And when no one even has recipes for advanced weapons (except Bob), guess who wins combat?

The problem is, like 90% of crafting/gathering progression is in the skill tree.  The combat stats are only like 20% of your character power (or whatever they settle on).  Furthermore, having 20% more combat stats doesn't change the game fundamentally, it just gives you a small boost.

This is a big mystery to me.

They could have CW based on training amount and what not but that just cuts up the population further and doesn't work with their "super shallow power curve" concept.

While I don't like free power given for combat, having much of the non-combat locked behind time gates seems silly in comparison.

Tomes are not the solution.

Uncle Bob will exist and some of their design seems to make it worse than other games.

1 hour ago, Jjohnsin said:

I think the passive skill system is fine. Like yah it's boring and what not...but it's supposed to just be the equivalent of leveling in other MMOs. Let it be that, just let it be a background stat gain.

I think what most people are looking for is active customization in the skill tree...but all that campaign to campaign customization and experimentation will *hopefully* be achieved through the stuff you will get in the CW's: advantages/disadvantages, disciplines, vessels, gear, etc. 

Let those pieces be this active customization for your character. If anything I think the passive system should just be cleaned up with maybe a few interesting final nodes to somewhat specialize your account. Imo the majority of work needed for this issue will be in giving players a fun, interesting, and unique in-game customization experience with easy entry for newer players and a lot of depth for veterans. 

If they are trying to step away from the 'kill 100 rats" design, why bother with stat gains over time, especially when they require near zero skill/effort?

With all the active in-game systems that require time/effort/skill and come with risk/reward and loss, I don't see the value.

Tossing in a "leveling" system just because or to appease a particular crowd seems like a waste.

The training system provides free power, makes a larger gap between new/old players, and locks out non-combat roles potential power by time instead of actively playing.

Overall it makes little sense beyond "RPG!"

Much rather have 100% of characters be build in-game. However, VN suggestion of per CW training would be a 2nd option if it must exist.

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I agree with ClockWorkOrange. The primary problem is not passive v active, it is that training feels meaningless. Everyone starts out for the first few months training essentially the exact same things. There is next to no choice, and there is not a differentiation effect of training, but a standardization effect of training.

Specific powers need to be affected by training. 

Mutually exclusive training trees need to be implemented.

Neither are likely to happen.

Edited by McTan

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I really think they'd be better off going the RTS route and letting people build and rebuild their characters each campaign.  If they think they need persistence and the passive system is the solution that is just silly because no one gets attached to the passive system.  We've seen with games like d2 and poe how successful the thrill of rebuilding and reoptimizing characters can be.  If someone is truly in love with their build they can just do the exact same build again.  

This also gives the added depth, like an RTS, of allowing each campaign to have its own early, mid, late game buildup.  Instead of having Joe fully trained come up against A_frenzied_pleb_01 at the start of a campaign with a huge edge.  

The passive system as it is now is a bad implementation, aside from a little marketing spin "advance your character while offline" it doesn't actually add much excitement to the game, and the good things it does add could be achieved with other systems without the flaws of the current one. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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A year after launch the passive training will be mostly meaningless because you will have opened up enough options for race and class. It will be about the vessel builds and disciplines. So now we have account level skills and vessel level skills with the sacrificial system. So you two leveling systems from what I can tell. So in a way it seams to me like they sorta addressed the very point of the op. 

On 1/12/2018 at 1:53 PM, armegeddon said:

Winner!

While i mostly agree with you i think they did need something more to do other than harvesting and crafting when all your guild mates are offline.if you want good PvP you need to keep enough of  the player base in game for it to happen. While the questing/sacrificial system may not be your favorite part of the game it will at least give enough other people incentive to be around long enough for you to gank them ant loot their grave.

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10 hours ago, McTan said:

I agree with ClockWorkOrange. The primary problem is not passive v active, it is that training feels meaningless. Everyone starts out for the first few months training essentially the exact same things. There is next to no choice, and there is not a differentiation effect of training, but a standardization effect of training.

Specific powers need to be affected by training. 

Mutually exclusive training trees need to be implemented.

Neither are likely to happen.

Supporters have been requesting/suggesting these types of skill system changes since forever it seems, and yet it doesn't seem to be in the stars for what ever reason.  When push comes to shove, I support the passive training system and see that it has merits such as it is (we are much better off with it than without it).  However, let's not get it twisted--the inclusion of mutually exclusive training trees/lines and specific powers being affected (and features like those) would be a flat upgrade by most measures.   

Edited by Regulus

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9 hours ago, CPU13rother said:

While i mostly agree with you i think they did need something more to do other than harvesting and crafting when all your guild mates are offline.if you want good PvP you need to keep enough of  the player base in game for it to happen. While the questing/sacrificial system may not be your favorite part of the game it will at least give enough other people incentive to be around long enough for you to gank them ant loot their grave.

I agree. I think people are forgetting where we are. You won't be making runes out of slag. You will have to actively hunt and capture thralls. There will be a campaign time limit, a race to resources, constantly preparing, hoarding for the "Hunger". I don't think finding PvP will be hard at all. As a matter of fact, when the campaigns go live, I think it will be damned hard to avoid. That is optimistic conjecture at this point of course. The "Finished Product" will not look like what we have now, as far as population and content. If it does, the project will be a failure.

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Purely selfishly, I really like the over time skill system. Call me a casual or whatever, but it lets me keep up with the Joneses when I can't play cos the kids are kicking off, or if I decide to take a sabbatical to play another game and skip out a campaign or two.

I can see why its not as satisfying as an activity based progression system so understand the arguments against, but as someone who probably won't be playing CF as the only game I play (I don't want to burn out on it) its a pretty good fit.

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I thought Albion Online's system of combining in game experience with passive training worked well. Basically a skill would need 50% of it's bar filled with in game experience then the last 50% could be filled with the timed passive experience earned at a set rate per hour. If you had non used timed experience saved once you hit the 50% mark on the skill you could unlock it immediately.

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