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VIKINGNAIL

Get rid of the passive skill system.

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On 12.1.2018 at 8:45 PM, Frykka said:

What we (Sandbox MMOPvP Players) dislike is leveling and questing which is why we have the passive system in the first place.  What we also dislike is meaningless arena play and ranking ladders or scoring systems that promote individual elitism (epeen) over the group or guild accomplishments.   Our niche may just not be your niche...  

hey i like my virtual 30 cm hooligan


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56 minutes ago, Macross said:

Purely selfishly, I really like the over time skill system. Call me a casual or whatever, but it lets me keep up with the Joneses when I can't play cos the kids are kicking off, or if I decide to take a sabbatical to play another game and skip out a campaign or two.

I can see why its not as satisfying as an activity based progression system so understand the arguments against, but as someone who probably won't be playing CF as the only game I play (I don't want to burn out on it) its a pretty good fit.

My suggestion still keeps things fair, it just gives a reset button and a more meaningful sense of progression through a campaign.  Instead of the boring slow progression that exists now.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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16 hours ago, CPU13rother said:

A year after launch the passive training will be mostly meaningless because you will have opened up enough options for race and class. It will be about the vessel builds and disciplines. So now we have account level skills and vessel level skills with the sacrificial system. So you two leveling systems from what I can tell. So in a way it seams to me like they sorta addressed the very point of the op. 

 

The problem with this is if it takes a year to open up enough options then the majority of the player base will probably have moved onto other games. I think that's the biggest problem here. Most people play games and they want to feel like they are contributing to the game. They want to feel powerful. If it takes a year for someone to feel this most players will leave and not look back. Yeah sure we can say let them leave we don't need them but when you log in and there are only 50 people playing the game it's not going to be very fun especially if 30 of them are in 1 faction. They need to allow players to gain base level skills more quickly. If not that then they need to make it easier to get gear early on that will make people feel more powerful.

I just started playing again yesterday. The last time I played was a few months ago. So yesterday I set my basic skills for combat, race, and I believe class skill, was my third choice. So I get into the game and I start harvesting to make tools. After this I harvest to make gear. I then go fight a boar and almost die but I don't I survive and get 1 piece of ethereal dust and I skin it and get 1 piece of hide. I go back to harvesting so I can work at getting runes to make better harvesting gear along the way I kill a few more boar. I would love to try pvp but I know I will go out there and just die. I log out. I log back in at night before bed I use my banked time to increase my skills. I play for a bit and I make my better harvesting tools I kill a boar and skin it with my better knife. damn I got 2 hide. Lets see leather armor I need like 10 hide plus a bunch of other mats to make a piece of leather armor. I will probably need to kill about 20 boar to just get the hides. I kill 1 more and log out I have to go to bed. I get up this morning I log in and go to skills I add the banked time to my skills I set my active skills again and I log out because I know I'm just going to go in and harvest a few trees and kill a few boar and then log out. I will log back in tonight to used my banked time to raise my skills again. I may work at getting some more mats. in 2 days I will have gathered material and watched my skill tree slowly rise, pretty exciting stuff (I sure don't feel like a knight).

I don't mind this too much but I see it getting old quickly. yeah I'm playing solo and I need to find a guild, but in actuality a lot of players who are playing this game at launch are going to be playing it solo. I know I personally like to get a feel for a game before I commit to a guild. If these people come into a new game and don't feel like they are progressing or contributing they aren't going to stick around.

That's why I think they need to change something in the game to make players feel like they are progressing early on. The way the current skill system works you don't get any real feeling of achievement or progression and you don't feel confident going into pvp.

Maybe when the game is finished they will have things implemented into it so that new players can at least feel useful. Maybe we can gather wood for siege weapons for our faction or something. I mean this is still Alpha so the game still has a long way to go but the way the game currently stands I don't think new players are going to stick around if they don't get a feeling of progression.

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1 hour ago, johnstonwlt said:

The problem with this is if it takes a year to open up enough options then the majority of the player base will probably have moved onto other games. I think that's the biggest problem here. Most people play games and they want to feel like they are contributing to the game. They want to feel powerful. If it takes a year for someone to feel this most players will leave and not look back. Yeah sure we can say let them leave we don't need them but when you log in and there are only 50 people playing the game it's not going to be very fun especially if 30 of them are in 1 faction. They need to allow players to gain base level skills more quickly. If not that then they need to make it easier to get gear early on that will make people feel more powerful.

I just started playing again yesterday. The last time I played was a few months ago. So yesterday I set my basic skills for combat, race, and I believe class skill, was my third choice. So I get into the game and I start harvesting to make tools. After this I harvest to make gear. I then go fight a boar and almost die but I don't I survive and get 1 piece of ethereal dust and I skin it and get 1 piece of hide. I go back to harvesting so I can work at getting runes to make better harvesting gear along the way I kill a few more boar. I would love to try pvp but I know I will go out there and just die. I log out. I log back in at night before bed I use my banked time to increase my skills. I play for a bit and I make my better harvesting tools I kill a boar and skin it with my better knife. damn I got 2 hide. Lets see leather armor I need like 10 hide plus a bunch of other mats to make a piece of leather armor. I will probably need to kill about 20 boar to just get the hides. I kill 1 more and log out I have to go to bed. I get up this morning I log in and go to skills I add the banked time to my skills I set my active skills again and I log out because I know I'm just going to go in and harvest a few trees and kill a few boar and then log out. I will log back in tonight to used my banked time to raise my skills again. I may work at getting some more mats. in 2 days I will have gathered material and watched my skill tree slowly rise, pretty exciting stuff (I sure don't feel like a knight).

I don't mind this too much but I see it getting old quickly. yeah I'm playing solo and I need to find a guild, but in actuality a lot of players who are playing this game at launch are going to be playing it solo. I know I personally like to get a feel for a game before I commit to a guild. If these people come into a new game and don't feel like they are progressing or contributing they aren't going to stick around.

That's why I think they need to change something in the game to make players feel like they are progressing early on. The way the current skill system works you don't get any real feeling of achievement or progression and you don't feel confident going into pvp.

Maybe when the game is finished they will have things implemented into it so that new players can at least feel useful. Maybe we can gather wood for siege weapons for our faction or something. I mean this is still Alpha so the game still has a long way to go but the way the game currently stands I don't think new players are going to stick around if they don't get a feeling of progression.

You can be very useful in one thing with a non-VIP account in less than a month, while that is training up you have lots of prep work to do and get out there and fight.  This account will gain another very useful skill after 4 months or so and at a year will have 3 useful skills or more.   With a VIP account double that to 2 at one month, 4 at 4 months and 6 at one year...  

So I have about 5 weeks trained in skinning...  i went out a farmed boar for one potion plus a little last night, I kill boars in about 15 seconds and take only a tiny amount of damage and I get about 8 leather per on ave,  with the potion I now have 4 pips plus the beneficial harvesting is active now that my specialization node is 100%...   In 40 minutes I get 245 white leather, 18 green leather and 8 blue leather plus 4 hunger shards 2 AP and 2 healing...  I went out to cats and strealth farmed them for awhile, then some guildies came and helped plus provided cover and scouting...  in an hour I got 250 cat leather...

Today I will craft 5 sets of Critical Damage leather on another account that is trained in LW for 5 weeks...  this is where you should be after a little over a month skill training.   If not, you need to re-evaluate your training plan.   I support a number of combat focused players and they absolutely know where their bread is buttered.  

My own harvesting and combat accounts get the second tier of gear, the best goes to our best fighters...   this is how it is done.

Good things come to those who plan and have patience for an MMO...    

Bottom line is that you are approaching things solo and that makes it twice as hard and twice as long to gear up...   just 2 people working together do far better.  This game is not about solo, nor is it about the individual.  Get with friends or make friends, join a guild or create one, the n your guild needs a plan and a strategy for harvesting, gear and battle.

And remember again you only have to do this "not having gear and not having skills" thing once in the life of the game...  Once you know how to do it efficiently you get basic gear in about the first 20 minutes from login, you will get intermediate gear after about a day and you can get advanced gear after about 3 days or a week, faster if you have a good team to work with.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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On 1/12/2018 at 2:45 PM, entityofsin said:

No.

If you don't like the vision the game is taking, then you should quit now while you're ahead.

As much as I don't usually agree with VK, I do think eventually, somewhere down the road, a campaign specific skill tree would be nice to try.  It doesn't have to conflict with the over all vision at all.

Make a campaign that no matter what your current training is, when you enter it's back to zero in that campaign. The training times for that specific campaign are much shorter, but do not carry into the other campaigns. You still have your other training rolling, this is just a training instance that only applies to the one campaign.

I think that type of play would have enough of a market to at least give a shot to.  I know I would like to play in some of those types of campaigns, if for no other reason that to see what it is like to be something other than my usual profession, at least from time to time.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

As much as I don't usually agree with VK, I do think eventually, somewhere down the road, a campaign specific skill tree would be nice to try.  It doesn't have to conflict with the over all vision at all.

Make a campaign that no matter what your current training is, when you enter it's back to zero in that campaign. The training times for that specific campaign are much shorter, but do not carry into the other campaigns. You still have your other training rolling, this is just a training instance that only applies to the one campaign.

I think that type of play would have enough of a market to at least give a shot to.  I know I would like to play in some of those types of campaigns, if for no other reason that to see what it is like to be something other than my usual profession, at least from time to time.

Yes, down the road and as long as it isn't the norm for campaign rule sets.

I want my time commitment to actually mean something in the skill training for the majority of campaigns. That's primarily why I am against it in general. I can see it working well for a Dreg campaign though. But any idea can work "somewhere down the road" anyways. I'd much rather see different campaign terrains, such as underwater maps, islands, etc. than rule sets where you start at zero skill training in it. Such is the great thing about Crowfall. We can have our cake and eat it too. :)


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In my opinion, some of the arguments pointed out do actually make sense and stand out of the "because-I-don't-like-it" ones.

 

- When game launches, it might take a while to get access to most things.

This could be easily solved with some speed training.

 

- After some months, new players might be struggling to keep up with veteran ones.

Again, can be solved gradually increasing the amount of speed training to soften that gap.

 

- As @VIKINGNAIL said, there could be a lack of meaningful sense of progression through a campaign.

I think the campaign progression sense should come from other sources such as season changes (mostly through the race for resources and the hunger threat)... which are still not implemented. Until that happens, I find it really hard to evaluate if campaigns will feel progresive enough or not. Even then, if things turn out the wrong way, there will be options to redress it, maybe sharpening seasons by adding more changes, maybe even with campaign skill trees through sacrifice.

 

I find the system flaws can be solved.

Moreover, I think getting rid of the current skill system would hit heavily on the game's persistance, having it's impact on things like EK, export/import, and economy/crafting outside of campaigns.

 

 

 

Edited by Thevo

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52 minutes ago, Thevo said:

In my opinion, some of the arguments pointed out do actually make sense and stand out of the "because-I-don't-like-it" ones.

 

- When game launches, it might take a while to get access to most things.

This could be easily solved with some speed training.

 

- After some months, new players might be struggling to keep up with veteran ones.

Again, can be solved gradually increasing the amount of speed training to soften that gap.

 

- As @VIKINGNAIL said, there could be a lack of meaningful sense of progression through a campaign.

I think the campaign progression sense should come from other sources such as season changes (mostly through the race for resources and the hunger threat)... which are still not implemented. Until that happens, I find it really hard to evaluate if campaigns will feel progresive enough or not. Even then, if things turn out the wrong way, there will be options to redress it, maybe sharpening seasons by adding more changes, maybe even with campaign skill trees through sacrifice.

 

I find the system flaws can be solved.

Moreover, I think getting rid of the current skill system would hit heavily on the game's persistance, having it's impact on things like EK, export/import, and economy/crafting outside of campaigns.

 

 

 

The sense of persistence it will give, is it really so meaningful and exciting compared to what a different system could offer?  We've heard ACE's point of view on it before, passive stat gain, replaces leveling, etc etc but is it really that fun?  I think they themselves have admitted it's not going to be the most fun aspect of the game, but why hold onto something you know is going to be meh?  Compared to the idea of progressing through the duration of a campaign, resetting, build variety, etc etc, things that have been tried and been huge hits in other seasonal games.  

Do we really escape uncle bob if joe the newb with no training enters campaigns vs bob the guy that's been training for a year?  Are we really seeing a shallow power curve in this game?  Is time-gating access to content at the lengths it may end up being gated to unlock certain elements of CF really interesting?

At least if it was on a per-campaign level it could be sped up more in line with the type of element you would expect in action oriented games.  

Eve is a slow game, CF is not a slow game, it's trying to marry things that just don't go together well.  

This is not something that will make or break CF, but it is something that players that do play will eventually realize is one of the flaws with the game, not one of the strengths, and the game will have to suffer from "oh man it could have been better if they had just done so and so differently".  

My idea is transformative, it helps CF become more of a consistent active-thinking game, it needs to achieve this through a multi-pronged approach because the combat isn't good enough to carry the game on its own.  

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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11 hours ago, entityofsin said:

Yes, down the road and as long as it isn't the norm for campaign rule sets.

I want my time commitment to actually mean something in the skill training for the majority of campaigns. That's primarily why I am against it in general. I can see it working well for a Dreg campaign though. But any idea can work "somewhere down the road" anyways. I'd much rather see different campaign terrains, such as underwater maps, islands, etc. than rule sets where you start at zero skill training in it. Such is the great thing about Crowfall. We can have our cake and eat it too. :)

It's really a question of two different kinds of developers, art vs systems, and a question about just how easy they made it to possibly clone the training functionality to begin with.

Sadly, I suspect it is soo deep, and soo interdependent on many things, that campaign specific training is one of those dreams that is never going to see the light of day.

10 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The sense of persistence it will give, is it really so meaningful and exciting compared to what a different system could offer?  We've heard ACE's point of view on it before, passive stat gain, replaces leveling, etc etc but is it really that fun? 

Yes, yes it is VK.  It's one of the big things that are lacking from most games these days, and for those that find it important, it's VERY important, and is probably one of the reasons they even backed the project. It's one of the reasons I backed, and if they pulled it I would ask for a refund instantly.  It's that core to the vision there is no way I would accept it not being there.

That said, I really would like to see a faster training model with caps,  to deliver the same sense of progression and give people a variety of professions to try over the course of time.  Every time they say things like "it will take over 10 years to X", I think they forget just how many of us nostalgic fans of games like this will be retirement age before that happens. 

Long term planning is fine, but how many people are playing ANY game regularly that they were playing 2-3 years ago? Is that really the fault of the games, or just the way people are?

 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's really a question of two different kinds of developers, art vs systems, and a question about just how easy they made it to possibly clone the training functionality to begin with.

Sadly, I suspect it is soo deep, and soo interdependent on many things, that campaign specific training is one of those dreams that is never going to see the light of day.

Yes, yes it is VK.  It's one of the big things that are lacking from most games these days, and for those that find it important, it's VERY important, and is probably one of the reasons they even backed the project. It's one of the reasons I backed, and if they pulled it I would ask for a refund instantly.  It's that core to the vision there is no way I would accept it not being there.

That said, I really would like to see a faster training model with caps,  to deliver the same sense of progression and give people a variety of professions to try over the course of time.  Every time they say things like "it will take over 10 years to X", I think they forget just how many of us nostalgic fans of games like this will be retirement age before that happens. 

Long term planning is fine, but how many people are playing ANY game regularly that they were playing 2-3 years ago? Is that really the fault of the games, or just the way people are?

 

I'm sorry what exactly is this big thing that is lacking from games that passive training gives?  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I haven't read any of the large paragraphs in this topic, but I've always liked actually doing stuff to gain skill. Another open world, PvP/PvE game that was more of an underground game was UCGO. I liked their system a lot:

You have a max of 350 skill points (450? 350? Something like that)

You have to shoot lasers to get up your lasers skill. Projectiles to get up your projectile skill. You have to run to get up your Acrobatics. Dodge attacks to get up your dodge. You only have 350 sp, so you have to decide what you want. Once you hit max, you could hit a down arrow to make that skill go down and then do whatever action you want to skill up.

For crafters: Same system applies. Weaponsmith, armorsmith, etc were all in game. 125 were the cap for these I believe, at different sp tiers, you got access to better weapons and armor. For example: Once you had 30 skill, you got this weapon. 50 skill, this weapon, 75 skill.. and so on. Same system applies with the arrows.

 

 

^ This has been my favorite skill system out of all the games I've ever played.  The current Crowfall system is very boring.

Or just put in the DF 1 system and be done with it.

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4 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I'm sorry what exactly is this big thing that is lacking from games that passive training gives?  

It gives everyone a hierarchy they can participate and move ahead in, regardless of merit or personal skill. It's also long term recognition of effort or participation, not necessarily tied to "skill". It is the skilless version of Epeen. It's something you "earn" through participation, not for any particular achievement. It's the "look at the thing I did", like farmville and other casual games.

In a world where only very few players can truly excel and win on skill alone, it gives that much needed emotional kick to keep people trying, without having to actually be good.  As a component of a competitive game that wants to be profitable, it's something that simply has to be included, because without it 95% of players simply won't be competitive or involved enough to want to keep playing. PUBG works without it, because the expectation is you are going to lose, and you have zero reliance on other, so every kill is a victory of sorts. For CF, even if you lose a campaign and get zero exports, you will still have some gained passive skill, increased the reliance of the team on you,  and maybe do better the next round because of it.

For pure competition, like chess, it's not needed. For an MMO, long term progression is basically a requirement.  

It's also fun to be able to do something you were not able to do before, or see marked progress in results for the same effort.  Just the same as every once in a while a good DM will put level 12 players in a room full of level 1 zombies, possibility even recreating the exact same encounter that kicked their asses at level 2, just to show them how much progress they have made.

I mean just how much vitriol and debate people are having about the VIP thing and it being Pay to Win.  Obviously they feel as if more passive skills=winning, despite the fact that its a team game and you can win just as easily with zero personal skill and the right team.

Don't underplay the value of emotions you don't think you have or appreciate. They are still a critical component to a fully fleshed out game if it wants to be a success. From what I have seen of your responses, I think you have large blind spot as to what makes harvesters or crafters tick.

Oh and for the record, I personally don't pursue that sort of recognition, I just recognize the need to have it in the game.  If I was that type of person, I certainly would not have only one account.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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9 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It gives everyone a hierarchy they can participate and move ahead in, regardless of merit or personal skill. It's also long term recognition of effort or participation, not necessarily tied to "skill". It is the skilless version of Epeen. It's something you "earn" through participation, not for any particular achievement. It's the "look at the thing I did", like farmville and other casual games.

Is it really a long term recognition of effort?  Isn't the whole point of the system to minimalize effort to just a few clicks every once in a while?  Also what participation are you referring to, participating in those few clicks?  Furthermore, you say it's a big thing games have been lacking, but haven't they also had their own skilless epeen through things like leveling and achievement pages?

In a world where only very few players can truly excel and win on skill alone, it gives that much needed emotional kick to keep people trying, without having to actually be good.  As a component of a competitive game that wants to be profitable, it's something that simply has to be included, because without it 95% of players simply won't be competitive or involved enough to want to keep playing. PUBG works without it, because the expectation is you are going to lose, and you have zero reliance on other, so every kill is a victory of sorts. For CF, even if you lose a campaign and get zero exports, you will still have some gained passive skill, increased the reliance of the team on you,  and maybe do better the next round because of it.

Does it really give people a kick to keep trying when they don't actually have to play to get their long term persistence?  If anything I think it encourages a fire and forget mentality more than enticing people to log in, which of course should always be fostered by the gameplay experience itself and I really just don't think passive training contributes to any of that excitement.  I also think it contradicts what a competitive game is, which are supposed to be games where you excel based on merit and personal skill.  I also don't see why it HAS to be included when other competitive games across all genres are doing fine without it.  This system is not the norm for competitive PvP games, it is pretty unique and doesn't really fit what competitive PvPers generally look for in games imo.  If PUBG works because there is an expectation you are going to lose, and that game is wildly popular for pvpers, why is it CF is going the other route, why wouldn't a game advertised as play2crush be harsh with the expectation that most people will not be winners?  Do you think a PvP game will thrive if it's approach is to hand out participation trophies?  I understand needing enough sheep for the wolves to be wolves, but how does a long term passive training system keep more sheep than one that resets and keeps things fresh and dynamically evolving like other games have.  You would think that would be more casual friendly no?

For pure competition, like chess, it's not needed. For an MMO, long term progression is basically a requirement.  

Is it?  Shadowbane itself was an MMO that people rerolled and hopped around servers on and made so many alts on.  I'm not saying shadowbane's design was great either, I just think casual or hardcore pvpers alike all care more about fun active gameplay experience than any sense that this passive training system offers them as far as progression goes.  Like perhaps you yourself have identified, they will most likely find it too slow as it currently is.

It's also fun to be able to do something you were not able to do before, or see marked progress in results for the same effort.  Just the same as every once in a while a good DM will put level 12 players in a room full of level 1 zombies, possibility even recreating the exact same encounter that kicked their asses at level 2, just to show them how much progress they have made.

Wouldn't this also be achieved with a system that works on a per campaign basis?

I mean just how much vitriol and debate people are having about the VIP thing and it being Pay to Win.  Obviously they feel as if more passive skills=winning, despite the fact that its a team game and you can win just as easily with zero personal skill and the right team.

 

Don't underplay the value of emotions you don't think you have or appreciate. They are still a critical component to a fully fleshed out game if it wants to be a success. From what I have seen of your responses, I think you have large blind spot as to what makes harvesters or crafters tick.

Oh and for the record, I personally don't pursue that sort of recognition, I just recognize the need to have it in the game.  If I was that type of person, I certainly would not have only one account.

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

This is not something that will make or break CF, but it is something that players that do play will eventually realize is one of the flaws with the game, not one of the strengths, and the game will have to suffer from "oh man it could have been better if they had just done so and so differently".

That is probably true. It's probably not game breaking since it only affects newbies but it's not great either.

Maybe if the stat/skill gains were nerfed but the trees had extra racial emotes, gathering animations, craftable item skins/colours and other aesthetics you could unlock with your time bank it might be different, but the devs might not have the manpower to do all that (and if they did maybe they'd put those in the cash shop).

Buffing up base character stats/abilities and getting only, or mostly, aesthetic/cosmetic rewards for time spent playing/training would make more sense; newbies would be rewarded for their loyalty and dedication to the game and by the time they'd max out their trees they'd have played the game enough to want to keep on playing. Since there are very few cosmetic abilities you can have compared the skill trees would become dramatically compressed however.

One thing I know for sure is the devs will be resistant to the idea of completely getting rid of this system because they've already done work on creating it. Scrapping it would be a setback for them.

Or a simpler solution would be, as has been mentioned, to make the skills retrainable in every campaign and reset eveytime.

Edited by Silisquish
Forgot cash shop is a thing that exists in this game

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28 minutes ago, Silisquish said:

One thing I know for sure is the devs will be resistant to the idea of completely getting rid of this system because they've already done work on creating it. Scrapping it would be a setback for them.

They could just decrease the time frame it takes for players to progress through a skill tree. It would also mean skill tree categories need to be expanded upon more often to make up for that cause of faster skill training and Skill Tomes (catch up mechanic). This is of course if any of this is going to be an actual real issue. Speculation doesn't really do anyone any good when there isn't enough evidence to suggest the current skill training times are too long. Just decreasing time required is an easier fix to the current system.

Or a simpler solution would be, as has been mentioned, to make the skills retrainable in every campaign and reset eveytime.

I think this kind of goes away from the whole "characters persist and worlds die" core design that ACE marketed in their Kickstarter. It could work for a rule set though but it's kind of against the core design they're going for. Not trying to say that every rule set needs to since there was mention of Hunger Dome coming back potentially after launch and when we play tested that it didn't align with the game's design principle of "characters persist and worlds die". 

The question that might be presented is whether or not the game starts moving away from its root designs if rule sets steer it too far off the rail tracks. I think it's practical to say that we should first have the opportunity to play test such ideas before they permanently get put into the game as part of the core design.

 


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I really think ACE needs to rename the skill tree to the leveling tree. Skill tree has a bunch of connotations with it which makes people thinks it’s there for customization, but it’s not. Just like leveling up, it’s there for progression. 


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Y'all are trying to make the skill trees do way too many things.  Nearly everything folks have complained about the skill tree not doing the Discipline system does- and you're just too spoiled by being able to craft legendary quality disciplines for a single slag ore.

 

You want in campaign skill progression?  It's called getting a better vessel and disciplines. You already have what you're begging for.

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5 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

 

I'll just say this, your not wrong, but your also not right, and if you remember from previous threads about this topic where this has been discussed, I have always advocated for campaign training in one form or another. But it must have a component of continuation, something you keep from world to world.  Even PUBG gives you BP to buy loot crates so you can put on different outfits.  It's all cosmetic, but it does give you a permanent thing to work/luck towards.

For some, campaign only training would be a draw, and for others passive training WITHOUT GRIND.  Grind was what ACE was trying to get away from with long term passive training, and what shadowbane had with single weekend max level is what they are trying to get with sacrifice. 

It is crushingly ironic that they replaced PvE grind with PvRock grind.  I would have much prefered for harvesting to be territorial control based like Company of Heroes did.  Hold a point, get the resources. 

Frankly I think your more right than wrong about the pace and draw that campaign specific training would offer, IF it was supplemented with a permanent training system for EK's.  

It's really tricky to make training feel meaningful, while at the same time not creating a bunch of ancient uncle bob's that can do everything.

So here we are.  They can't scrap it, because well frankly it would be a bad call to scrap it without at least trying it given the effort put into building it in the first place, not to mention its one of the bigger things sold to buyers already in, including yourself.

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