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VIKINGNAIL

Get rid of the passive skill system.

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2 hours ago, entityofsin said:

I think this kind of goes away from the whole "characters persist and worlds die" core design that ACE marketed in their Kickstarter.

Oh right I forgot about that. Some people won't like the it if too many things get reset; it'll feel like the game is too transient, not permanent enough. I forgot that that was supposed to be one benefit of the skill tree system; the feeling of permanence.

 

1 hour ago, coolster50 said:

I really think ACE needs to rename the skill tree to the leveling tree.

YES!

 

...And they need 1,336 skills/levels so max level would make you 1337.

Edited by Silisquish

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On 1/14/2018 at 11:41 AM, Frykka said:

You can be very useful in one thing with a non-VIP account in less than a month, while that is training up you have lots of prep work to do and get out there and fight.  This account will gain another very useful skill after 4 months or so and at a year will have 3 useful skills or more.   With a VIP account double that to 2 at one month, 4 at 4 months and 6 at one year...  

So I have about 5 weeks trained in skinning...  i went out a farmed boar for one potion plus a little last night, I kill boars in about 15 seconds and take only a tiny amount of damage and I get about 8 leather per on ave,  with the potion I now have 4 pips plus the beneficial harvesting is active now that my specialization node is 100%...   In 40 minutes I get 245 white leather, 18 green leather and 8 blue leather plus 4 hunger shards 2 AP and 2 healing...  I went out to cats and strealth farmed them for awhile, then some guildies came and helped plus provided cover and scouting...  in an hour I got 250 cat leather...

Today I will craft 5 sets of Critical Damage leather on another account that is trained in LW for 5 weeks...  this is where you should be after a little over a month skill training.   If not, you need to re-evaluate your training plan.   I support a number of combat focused players and they absolutely know where their bread is buttered.  

My own harvesting and combat accounts get the second tier of gear, the best goes to our best fighters...   this is how it is done.

Good things come to those who plan and have patience for an MMO...    

Bottom line is that you are approaching things solo and that makes it twice as hard and twice as long to gear up...   just 2 people working together do far better.  This game is not about solo, nor is it about the individual.  Get with friends or make friends, join a guild or create one, the n your guild needs a plan and a strategy for harvesting, gear and battle.

And remember again you only have to do this "not having gear and not having skills" thing once in the life of the game...  Once you know how to do it efficiently you get basic gear in about the first 20 minutes from login, you will get intermediate gear after about a day and you can get advanced gear after about 3 days or a week, faster if you have a good team to work with.

thanks for the advice, but that was not what I was looking for with my initial post. 

I was trying to point out that if the game was to launch with it's current skill system you would get a lot of people who would play it for a few weeks and then probably leave because they aren't getting a feeling of accomplishment in game. I like CF and what it is trying to do. I don't want to see it fail because of a launch that leaves people feeling lukewarm.

People like feeling like they are contributing and they like a feeling of progression that they are directly responsible for. 

I'f I spend a day chopping down trees and hitting rocks I want it to at least feel like it helped toward my progression or that I was contributing towards my faction in some way.

I would love to see a system where you have the passive skill gains as the majority of your skill gain but also have some sort of progression from what's happening in game. 

I know the game is still in alpha and has a long way to go before launch. I don't know what the devs have in store for the release. They may already be addressing this problem, but that's why we are here on the forums talking about it, because several people feel that the current skill system is not quite right.

 

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Wasnt the passive training one of CF selling points during KS? I was there and honestly everybody loved it.

Certainly there was some changes which i think shouldnt have being made. Axing promotions is one of them (i think i will never get over it). The other one that made a huge impact was abandoning the active skill progress possibility. In KS it was said doing certain things could increase your related skill up to a small cap (was it 10%?). This could be brought back IMO.

They could make that skill gain decay overtime meaning that if you want that skill to be at max you need to put it to use regularly. It would also speed skill training tremendously since it could bypass the time gate we have now.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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8 minutes ago, johnstonwlt said:

thanks for the advice, but that was not what I was looking for with my initial post. 

I was trying to point out that if the game was to launch with it's current skill system you would get a lot of people who would play it for a few weeks and then probably leave because they aren't getting a feeling of accomplishment in game. I like CF and what it is trying to do. I don't want to see it fail because of a launch that leaves people feeling lukewarm.

People like feeling like they are contributing and they like a feeling of progression that they are directly responsible for. 

I'f I spend a day chopping down trees and hitting rocks I want it to at least feel like it helped toward my progression or that I was contributing towards my faction in some way.

I would love to see a system where you have the passive skill gains as the majority of your skill gain but also have some sort of progression from what's happening in game. 

I know the game is still in alpha and has a long way to go before launch. I don't know what the devs have in store for the release. They may already be addressing this problem, but that's why we are here on the forums talking about it, because several people feel that the current skill system is not quite right.

 

The passive system is one of several progression systems and while over time it does have significant impact as a slow set of gates being opened, other than that it is something you shouldn't dwell on other than knowing your particular path through it.   It is not meant to feel instant gratification like levels yet performs one piece of that function.   Gear and vessels-discipline load out and the sacrifice system are the main active progression elements and synergize with your passive choices.   These are where you put your effort and feel progression directly...   continuously improving your ability to perform the role you have chosen.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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1 hour ago, Silisquish said:

Oh right I forgot about that. Some people won't like the it if too many things get reset; it'll feel like the game is too transient, not permanent enough. I forgot that that was supposed to be one benefit of the skill tree system; the feeling of permanence.

Just to add onto what I previously said.

I am not trying to say it's impossible to have a campaign with a rule set with skill training reset each time but then it looks too much like a MOBA where you level up a character each game and build the items for the character build each game. There's a lot of people, despite how popular MOBA games are, that don't like MOBAs. Crowfall needs to feel like it's a MMO when you log in and play, not another game genre. It will fail to emulate another game genre.

Another concern I have for this kind of rule set idea is how it could basically transform the game into having more rule sets like it if it becomes really popular. Same goes for any sort of Battle Royale rule set. Hunger Dome was "fun", even though it had terrible combat, but it was fun for the fact you could jump into a match, screw around with a bunch of other people, and not worry about losing anything. Even if that was a campaign rule set it might empty out what would be considered "main" campaign worlds. I think that would be a bad thing for the game overall.

The ideas themselves aren't bad. It's what the result of putting them into the game that could be bad. I don't think it's worth the risk. If you want to play a Battle Royale game then the two best options are PUGB and Fortnite. If you want to play a MOBA then the best options are DOTA 2, LoL, and HOTS.

I really don't try to come off like I absolutely hate someone else's idea. I just don't think that because another genre of games is popular means that Crowfall needs to adopt design philosophies from those games because they're popular.

I would rather see more focus and effort placed on FFA campaigns, possibly some full friendly fire (including AOE attacks hurting yourself), and full loot related stuff. All of those things on a sliding scale type of spectrum. Even PvE content that leads to PvP even though I absolutely loath PvE with a passion. The end result is what is more important if it's a net positive in the overall direction of Crowfall's core design.


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2 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Wasnt the passive training one of CF selling points during KS? I was there and honestly everybody loved it.

Certainly there was some changes which i think shouldnt have being made. Axing promotions is one of them (i think i will never get over it). The other one that made a huge impact was abandoning the active skill progress possibility. In KS it was said doing certain things could increase your related skill up to a small cap (was it 10%?). This could be brought back IMO.

They could make that skill gain decay overtime meaning that if you want that skill to be at max you need to put it to use regularly. It would also speed skill training tremendously since it could bypass the time gate we have now.

At that point it was for a per character basis and you were going to have multiple character slots, and yes at the time part of the progression was going to be tied to active play.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I like the passive training system because am bored with grind-type leveling systems that make me kill 10,000 skeletons, or craft 10,000 noobie swords before I can do something more fun. Set it, and forget it works for me! I also like the permanent account level aspect to it. 

I do agree that:

On 1/14/2018 at 7:09 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Eve is a slow game, CF is not a slow game

And I think some of the current time-scaling and over-specialization in the skill trees needs some adjustment to feel right for CF. For me the most fun part of the skill training in CF is the idea of increasing options for gameplay variety, rather than the EVE model of specializing training for years along one track.


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On 1/13/2018 at 9:44 PM, Regulus said:

I support the passive training system and see that it has merits such as it is (we are much better off with it than without it). 

How so? What would be lost if it was removed completely or done in a different way, be it VN's suggestion or others.

On 1/14/2018 at 11:41 AM, Frykka said:

Good things come to those who plan and have patience for an MMO...    

This game is not about solo, nor is it about the individual.

only have to do this "not having gear and not having skills" thing once in the life of the game... 

I don't disagree with this, but will be interesting how ACE presents this and how unknowing players react once they are in.

Even with Faction CWs, actually communicating and working together will be a must.

There aren't any recent games (that I know of) that require such a time commitment (passive or not) nor social element to progress/succeed on this scale.

If unorganized players struggle to come together and new players find themselves without peers, game will likely be in trouble.

Dedicated groups will simply run over them as they do in pretty much every other team based game no matter the genre.

On 1/14/2018 at 5:48 PM, entityofsin said:

I want my time commitment to actually mean something in the skill training for the majority of campaigns.

What is your minor effort time "commitment" actually going to mean as is?

8 hours ago, coolster50 said:

I really think ACE needs to rename the skill tree to the leveling tree. Skill tree has a bunch of connotations with it which makes people thinks it’s there for customization, but it’s not. Just like leveling up, it’s there for progression. 

Yes. "Skill" be it player skill or abilities on a bar aren't the main focus of the system. "Passive Stat Gain"

7 hours ago, Kith said:

Y'all are trying to make the skill trees do way too many things.  Nearly everything folks have complained about the skill tree not doing the Discipline system does- and you're just too spoiled by being able to craft legendary quality disciplines for a single slag ore.

You want in campaign skill progression?  It's called getting a better vessel and disciplines. You already have what you're begging for.

Which is why I question the purpose for the passive system. For a game supposedly built with risk vs reward and choices/consequences in mind along with win/loss, dying worlds, looting, etc why have a basically out-of-game stat system that requires little to no effort/skill. I'd much rather have all character elements be in-game and actually matter moment to moment, not what I clicked on 3 months ago and watched slowly tick up.

6 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Wasnt the passive training one of CF selling points during KS? I was there and honestly everybody loved it.

Early on there were on going discussions about how poor the system was. Appeared many expected an actual "skill system" where we'd unlock new abilities, specialization (promos), or simply enhance characters in unique ways. Passive in of itself is nothing, it's what is actually happening that matters.

The addition of Crows/Vessels and Class/Race might be their way to appease some of those with issues, but the passive system is still just stat creep in the background.

6 hours ago, Frykka said:

you shouldn't dwell on other than knowing your particular path through it.  

It is not meant to feel instant gratification like levels yet performs one piece of that function.  

What gratification instant or otherwise should passive training provide?

If we aren't supposed to dwell on it, don't really have any earned "Ding" moments with it, and from what some say, won't really matter performance wise, what's the point?

They seem to have spent a significant amount of resources attempting to make it enjoyable yet has the same feedback from the very start.

I see.... Don't worry about it, not supposed to matter much, scrap it and start again, tweak it this way, etc. If I received that feedback on my work, would question what I am doing.

Even those that seem to maybe like it do so because it isn't kill 1000 rats like other games. Not that this system is good, just not as bad as another or simply something else.

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The passive system definitely used to promise much more with things like unlocking promotion classes and it being on a character basis giving people more room to develop multiple toons


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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We were talking about the skill training in UDL public crowfall discord channels today. I think a lot of people dislike the skill training. My thoughts behind it was that it catered to the people who can only play once a month TOO much.

Make it where you get 80% of your skill training from the passive and 20% from active activities. Maybe hitting a mob or sacrificing a player's loot gain overall skill in something. Yes, I know sacrificing already does this... but it doesn't help the HARD lock time gate on crafting. Early game will be the worst with the current system and that will be the determining factor on if this game survives.

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30 minutes ago, Unfolded said:

We were talking about the skill training in UDL public crowfall discord channels today. I think a lot of people dislike the skill training. My thoughts behind it was that it catered to the people who can only play once a month TOO much.

Make it where you get 80% of your skill training from the passive and 20% from active activities. Maybe hitting a mob or sacrificing a player's loot gain overall skill in something. Yes, I know sacrificing already does this... but it doesn't help the HARD lock time gate on crafting. Early game will be the worst with the current system and that will be the determining factor on if this game survives.

@thomasblair

They originally planned for 20-25 percent of a skill to have the option of being actively progressed.  They scrapped it for whatever reason.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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38 minutes ago, Unfolded said:

We were talking about the skill training in UDL public crowfall discord channels today. I think a lot of people dislike the skill training. My thoughts behind it was that it catered to the people who can only play once a month TOO much.

Make it where you get 80% of your skill training from the passive and 20% from active activities. Maybe hitting a mob or sacrificing a player's loot gain overall skill in something. Yes, I know sacrificing already does this... but it doesn't help the HARD lock time gate on crafting. Early game will be the worst with the current system and that will be the determining factor on if this game survives.

@thomasblair

As with all things there are ups and downs. Passive is great from a sense that you can progress and keep up with your social group no matter what is going on in real life, even if you can only login every few days. (It sucks being the friend who wasn't able to log in and all of a sudden your friends shot ahead 20 levels and now you have to PuG it)

Downside is you are gated by time, I know we have many, many people who would like to grind to the end, even if it means killing 1212762376 boars. Unfortunately that style of play as we have seen over and over is people race to the end, look around, ask where is the end game? proceed to complain about being bored and quit. Without fail. Every single game.

Do people want to make top end stuff day 1? Sure they do, and in games that let you grind it out, guilds can funnel everything to a player to those ends. Which sucks for longevity. You claim that the early game is going to be unpleasant (which might be true) but it would be even more unpleasant long term for the game if we let people zip to the the proverbial "end" in that first week too. 

The way we have it now there will be epochs of gear, where over time the gear that appears on the vendors will get better and better, and every couple of weeks the crafters will make a giant leap forward as they earn more experimentation points. (least that is the theory)

Where you can go get your grind on is with leveling vessels and finding Disciplines. +90 attributes from a basic white quality vessel at max is pretty significant, even more so if we up the amount of attributes gained per level on the higher quality vessels.

 

 

 


Thomas Blair
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18 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

As with all things there are ups and downs. Passive is great from a sense that you can progress and keep up with your social group no matter what is going on in real life, even if you can only login every few days. (It sucks being the friend who wasn't able to log in and all of a sudden your friends shot ahead 20 levels and now you have to PuG it)

Downside is you are gated by time, I know we have many, many people who would like to grind to the end, even if it means killing 1212762376 boars. Unfortunately that style of play as we have seen over and over is people race to the end, look around, ask where is the end game? proceed to complain about being bored and quit. Without fail. Every single game.

Do people want to make top end stuff day 1? Sure they do, and in games that let you grind it out, guilds can funnel everything to a player to those ends. Which sucks for longevity. You claim that the early game is going to be unpleasant (which might be true) but it would be even more unpleasant long term for the game if we let people zip to the the proverbial "end" in that first week too. 

The way we have it now there will be epochs of gear, where over time the gear that appears on the vendors will get better and better, and every couple of weeks the crafters will make a giant leap forward as they earn more experimentation points. (least that is the theory)

Where you can go get your grind on is with leveling vessels and finding Disciplines. +90 attributes from a basic white quality vessel at max is pretty significant, even more so if we up the amount of attributes gained per level on the higher quality vessels.

 

 

 

But as you mentioned there are still grinds so that friend is still going to fall behind in some manner from their social group if they can't play as much.  

What is the benefit to an account wide passive training that gives more of a slow burn type of feel over one that resets at the start of a campaign but lets players transition from early character builds into mid to late game with the progression of a campaign.  That seems like it is more synchronized and has a better flow for the game.  

Also doesn't the situation you say sucks for longevity (people making top end stuff day 1) still eventually occur with your system once people get trained up and enter a fresh campaign months or years after the game is launched?

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 minute ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

But as you mentioned there are still grinds so that friend is still going to fall behind in some manner from their social group if they can't play as much.  

What is the benefit to an account wide passive training that gives more of a slow burn type of feel over one that resets at the start of a campaign but lets players transition from early character builds into mid to late game with the progression of a campaign.  That seems like it is more synchronized and has a better flow for the game.  

You can dump items on them for sacrifice and PL them to some degree. (we just don't put ALL the eggs into this one basket, they can still make meaningful account progression via passively training)

If we were to reset skills every campaign you would lose that long term progression and make it much more akin to Diablo3 seasons. (They technically have some long term via dumping season Paragons back to your live characters but no one plays on live.) Also now we need another catch up for late campaign joiners. This also removes long term progression, do you have a replacement for this in mind?


Thomas Blair
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44 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

As with all things there are ups and downs. Passive is great from a sense that you can progress and keep up with your social group no matter what is going on in real life, even if you can only login every few days. (It sucks being the friend who wasn't able to log in and all of a sudden your friends shot ahead 20 levels and now you have to PuG it)

Downside is you are gated by time, I know we have many, many people who would like to grind to the end, even if it means killing 1212762376 boars. Unfortunately that style of play as we have seen over and over is people race to the end, look around, ask where is the end game? proceed to complain about being bored and quit. Without fail. Every single game.

Do people want to make top end stuff day 1? Sure they do, and in games that let you grind it out, guilds can funnel everything to a player to those ends. Which sucks for longevity. You claim that the early game is going to be unpleasant (which might be true) but it would be even more unpleasant long term for the game if we let people zip to the the proverbial "end" in that first week too. 

The way we have it now there will be epochs of gear, where over time the gear that appears on the vendors will get better and better, and every couple of weeks the crafters will make a giant leap forward as they earn more experimentation points. (least that is the theory)

Where you can go get your grind on is with leveling vessels and finding Disciplines. +90 attributes from a basic white quality vessel at max is pretty significant, even more so if we up the amount of attributes gained per level on the higher quality vessels.

 

16 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

You can dump items on them for sacrifice and PL them to some degree. (we just don't put ALL the eggs into this one basket, they can still make meaningful account progression via passively training)

If we were to reset skills every campaign you would lose that long term progression and make it much more akin to Diablo3 seasons. (They technically have some long term via dumping season Paragons back to your live characters but no one plays on live.) Also now we need another catch up for late campaign joiners. This also removes long term progression, do you have a replacement for this in mind?

personally my comment about it would be:

the crafting skill trees are interesting: you unlock utility by your choices that cannot be done by those without the training.

however if you look to then harvesting or combat, its more incremental stat inflation.

there are some small hints of utiliity in basic survival e.g. cooking recipies, unlocking drops that otherwise would not happen, the capacity to make fires and camps and the unknown "tracking" etc = interesting unlockable utility you can unlock, not just stat incrementations.

[and the downside of bringing the race/class into dual options is that the more unique class level utility you could train has now gone - and probably side effect of people not feeling as commited to a more specific role but don't mind the 'alt' options myself]

Edited by Tinnis

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17 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

You can dump items on them for sacrifice and PL them to some degree. (we just don't put ALL the eggs into this one basket, they can still make meaningful account progression via passively training)

If we were to reset skills every campaign you would lose that long term progression and make it much more akin to Diablo3 seasons. (They technically have some long term via dumping season Paragons back to your live characters but no one plays on live.) Also now we need another catch up for late campaign joiners. This also removes long term progression, do you have a replacement for this in mind?

In my opinion what do you need short, medium, and long term progression for?  The campaigns  right?  Sure this will also impact the EKs but the priority should be on making the campaigns themselves have a nice sense of progression right?  

With resetting progression like diablo style games each campaign will have an early mid and late game where season advancing, victory condition advancing, also coincide completely with character strengthening and advancement.  

With the overarching passive training progression once people have trained up enough and start entering campaigns months or years after launch, early game becomes something that is quickly bypassed, and whether you do it by import, or character skill progression this adds a significant element of uncle bob against people picking up the game later after release.  There are catchup mechanics but exactly how much of the gap a completely new player is going to realistically close early on still remains to be seen.  

So say for example you have a segment of your players that do not want any uncle bob whatsoever, these players don't have a true campaign scenario that suits them unless you get rid of the overarching passive progression for them.  

As far as campaign late joiners being behind are concerned if training is on a per campaign basis you can simply have checkpoints and allocate enough training for them to completely catch up or get pretty close to fully caught up.  

I understand some people will enjoy the persistence of long term passive skill-training, but in a way it does contribute to uncle bob and eventually makes it so that early game becomes dwarfed once many of the people entering new campaigns are trained up.  

Is it realistic to have zero uncle bob element campaigns where the campaign ignores your overall training and gives you a per-campaign mini-training progression instead?  

Do you yourself see any benefit to completely clean slate fresh campaigns?  It seems like in MMORPGs people often end up begging for completely fresh start servers because they enjoy the early mid to late game community transitions and I personally think it gives way to more RTS elements where people become extremely focused on early mid and late game builds and variations, whereas with account wide passive training progression you can't really go back to true early game anymore after a while.  

Edit:  I mean I see a lot of options, I don't mind the current passive skill-training system but think it cuts off people that truly want to avoid anything related to uncle bob dynamics and want real dying worlds and fresh starts in new campaigns.  As far as long term progression I am probably in the minority but I think it would be cooler if this type of stuff was tied to cosmetics as opposed to stats that will accumulate and carry over into new campaigns (though I am not opposed to that dynamic happening I just think there should also be the true fresh start options as well) for me I think cosmetics have proven to be able to carry significant satisfaction for players so maybe their long term progression could be tied into visuals based on how well they do in campaigns.  Things like titles, armor skins, and other cosmetics would be cool progression so you would know that that champion with 10 skulls hanging from his belt is pretty experienced.  

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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On 1/12/2018 at 11:53 AM, VIKINGNAIL said:

The system should have been giving people points over time in each individual campaign as it goes on, letting players try to stay ahead of specific campaign metas, and then letting them do it all over again in the next campaign.  This would have also kept the game feeling more fresh as people had more flexibility to truly deviate in separate campaigns and try to build and counterbuild each other, much like the reset button on rts games. 

This misses the point of the current system though, it doesn't replace it with something that achieves the same goal.  The goal here would be giving players some persistent progression outside of the campaigns so it doesn't feel like progression is ultimately meaningless because it will be reset every time a campaign ends.  This will already happen to some degree with the different import/export rules, you won't have every last thing from a previous campaign in a new one.  This game isn't framed or sold like a moba where you know each match you're going to be reset.  

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2 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

So say for example you have a segment of your players that do not want any uncle bob whatsoever, these players don't have a true campaign scenario that suits them unless you get rid of the overarching passive progression for them.  

I've actually thought about this and they could have "noob" campaigns which are restricted for accounts with less than X amount of training. 

That is the beauty of the campaign system where you can tailor rules however you want on a campaign basis.

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