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touchmybow

Gathering is not real content

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I agree with the overall message of this post however, currently the game is Quarryman Simulator / Lumberjack Simulator. Hopefully they do things to make it easier to get descent gear and do more things to reward pvp. Reducing the mats needed to make gear in half would be a good first step.

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First of all, your axe breaks too often. It feels like I'm using a trash item, and nobody wants to use a trash item except for maybe the rarest occasions. I would like a decent, dependable tool as a starter item. Secondly, it represents too much of a drain on my wood supply to replace tools. It's like half the time im gathering just so i can start gathering, its dumb.

Give us tools that aren't trash items.

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While I understand how someone could hold the opinions expressed by the OP and some of the posters in this thread, that understanding is like that of an adult watching a child get angry and frustrated at trying to tie their shoes for the first time. It is not that the shoelaces are inherently hard to tie, it is just that they don't know enough about what they are doing to make it painless. For the most part, with harvesting, that is what is going on here.

First of all, how often your tool lasts is a variable - for some people it will last for a very short time, and for others it will last for a very long time. There are a huge number of variables that control just this single aspect of harvesting, here is what is mostly likely an incomplete list of things that can impact how long your tool lasts:

  • Quality of the Tool - What kind of a +Mining modifier it has for example, for a Pick, as well as it's durability
  • Rank of the Resource Node - Higher rank nodes have more Armor/HP, this means your tool will last longer on a Rank 1 node versus a Rank 3, and it may be doing so little damage to a Rank 9 node that you won't be able to do any 'damage' to the node at all and get resources before your tool breaks
  • Skill Training - Not only does skill training impact how long your tool lasts, there are multiple areas of skill training that do this, from skill nodes which cause your tools to directly last longer/take less of a durability hit when used, to nodes that cause your tools to do more damage, then nodes which increasing the Harvesting Skill directly (+Mining) to Leadership Skills that can buff the effectiveness of an entire group. The difference any one of these, to say nothing of a combination of them, can make in your tool's lifetime is striking.
  • Harvesting Discipline Runes, Passives & Powers - There are multiple runes which can be used to shorten the time it takes to harvest a node, which of course means your tool will last longer. Some of these tie into the Leadership system and have group-based powers as well.
  • Equipment Modifers: - You gear's attributes can be modified so that instead of buffing your combat stats, they can buff your harvesting stats.

I would not be surprised if I were overlooking something when it comes to extending the life of your tool. In addition to all of that, beyond the tool lifetime, harvesting itself with the addition of the active harvesting mechanic and the various related powers, has become a much more exciting and tactical exercise. Slotting Harvesting Runes instead of Combat Runes is a choice that has real consquences. Having to focus on the weak spots, the timing of pip usage for powers etc, means it is easier for enemy players to sneak up on you unnoticed. I can tell you, that recently while harvesting R10 nodes in a group of 4, with blue and purple ore in our inventory, harvesting was very much an exciting experience...

Harvesting is very much a gameplay experience, and this is only a subset of what it is and how it will be manifest in release. People may find harvesting boring, but there is no question the system in it's totally is rich, complex and can lead to some great, exciting gameplay.

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10 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

While I understand how someone could hold the opinions expressed by the OP and some of the posters in this thread, that understanding is like that of an adult watching a child get angry and frustrated at trying to tie their shoes for the first time. It is not that the shoelaces are inherently hard to tie, it is just that they don't know enough about what they are doing to make it painless. For the most part, with harvesting, that is what is going on here.

First of all, how often your tool lasts is a variable - for some people it will last for a very short time, and for others it will last for a very long time. There are a huge number of variables that control just this single aspect of harvesting, here is what is mostly likely an incomplete list of things that can impact how long your tool lasts:

  • Quality of the Tool - What kind of a +Mining modifier it has for example, for a Pick, as well as it's durability
  • Rank of the Resource Node - Higher rank nodes have more Armor/HP, this means your tool will last longer on a Rank 1 node versus a Rank 3, and it may be doing so little damage to a Rank 9 node that you won't be able to do any 'damage' to the node at all and get resources before your tool breaks
  • Skill Training - Not only does skill training impact how long your tool lasts, there are multiple areas of skill training that do this, from skill nodes which cause your tools to directly last longer/take less of a durability hit when used, to nodes that cause your tools to do more damage, then nodes which increasing the Harvesting Skill directly (+Mining) to Leadership Skills that can buff the effectiveness of an entire group. The difference any one of these, to say nothing of a combination of them, can make in your tool's lifetime is striking.
  • Harvesting Discipline Runes, Passives & Powers - There are multiple runes which can be used to shorten the time it takes to harvest a node, which of course means your tool will last longer. Some of these tie into the Leadership system and have group-based powers as well.
  • Equipment Modifers: - You gear's attributes can be modified so that instead of buffing your combat stats, they can buff your harvesting stats.

I would not be surprised if I were overlooking something when it comes to extending the life of your tool. In addition to all of that, beyond the tool lifetime, harvesting itself with the addition of the active harvesting mechanic and the various related powers, has become a much more exciting and tactical exercise. Slotting Harvesting Runes instead of Combat Runes is a choice that has real consquences. Having to focus on the weak spots, the timing of pip usage for powers etc, means it is easier for enemy players to sneak up on you unnoticed. I can tell you, that recently while harvesting R10 nodes in a group of 4, with blue and purple ore in our inventory, harvesting was very much an exciting experience...

Harvesting is very much a gameplay experience, and this is only a subset of what it is and how it will be manifest in release. People may find harvesting boring, but there is no question the system in it's totally is rich, complex and can lead to some great, exciting gameplay.

Crowfall will release, new players will log in and play the game.  Should their experience be that of "yea it's tedious but don't worry you'll understand how that tedium works later" or should they be eased in (at least on some campaigns).

You never want the early impressions to be "not fun but trust me it gets better just wait!".  

You can try to argue that it's testing and will be more streamlined and user friendly at launch, that's fine, but trying to lambast the OP for a perfectly valid impression that I'd wager is similar to what a lot of new players would feel if they stepped in, is silly, you don't want to leave that kind of first impression when someone plays a game.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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ok so I started getting deeper into crafting. I am surprised that just to do gathering you have to immediately look beyond the "starter tool". Calling it a starter tool is a mistake, since, as I'm saying, its a trash tool. Which is redundant, because why have the item if its just there to grief players who haven't looked further into crafting? Anyway, I schooled myself in crafting and made myself a runestone axe. Keep in mind this is the second time i looked deeper into crafting. I'm not super eager to get into crafting, but I did initially take a peak days ago to have a look at, you guessed it, the first weapon upgrade. So it took a second "journey" into crafting to find the very much needed runestone tool. I built the axe and took it for a spin. Yes, its adequate and the mats required are not extreme or anything. However, I'm not enthusiastic about having to carry around crafting components just to craft gathering tools. I mean, I'll have to come up with a logistics solution just to manage gathering tools? Yay, logistics, my absolute fav.

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24 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Crowfall will release, new players will log in and play the game.  Should their experience be that of "yea it's tedious but don't worry you'll understand how that tedium works later" or should they be eased in (at least on some campaigns).

You never want the early impressions to be "not fun but trust me it gets better just wait!".  

You can try to argue that it's testing and will be more streamlined and user friendly at launch, that's fine, but trying to lambast the OP for a perfectly valid impression that I'd wager is similar to what a lot of new players would feel if they stepped in, is silly, you don't want to leave that kind of first impression when someone plays a game.  

If you think my post was a lambasting, you have clearly never seen me issue a lambasting. :)

I agree regarding the first impression actually, it is a point I have made many times on these forums in the context of final combine failures and the new player experience, and have done so as well to Todd directly. This is part of why I phrased my response this way - the flaw is not that the harvesting system is boring or overly difficult, but rather that new players have their first impression based on an uninformed conception of how things are. This is a failing in how the game, and indeed how ArtCraft, has or hasn't informed and educated new players - but it is not a failing in the game or content itself. Posts like mine which details these things should not be how players find out about the true nature of a core game system, even in this test phase.

That said, as regards the details in question...this content is like beauty, what it is, is largely in the eye of the beyolder. Some people love the harvesting system and content. The opinions of individual players are valid of course, but they do not reflect the actual game, only their understanding, impression and conception of it. This is an important distinction to make, even more so to newer players.

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I personally think they should make basic vessels also get basic armor, weapons, and harvesting tools. It'd normalize things differently, but mitigate the problem of entering the game and punching trees - something you'll likely never do again.

It would also limit the feeling of tediousness from basic harvesting tools breaking. Just don't let them break. Make it so they do not damage non-basic resource nodes at all. So, you've gated harvesting specials, but opened harvesting basics to anyone, at all times. Then make all the basics necessary for building structures, and boom.

ACE openly states that harvesting is a play-style that appeals to some and not others. Okay, shades of grey, but okay. Why, then, make people "only" interested in combat do an hour of harvesting? These are the responses they will get, and some of those people will likely quit after that hour is over, despite likely liking the game they were about to play.

Ultimately, the argument "the first couple hours is not an accurate representation of the game" is valid, really problematic, and should be readily fixed.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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1 minute ago, McTan said:

I personally think they could make basic vessels also get basic armor, weapons, and harvesting tools. It'd normalize things differently, but mitigate the problem of entering the game and punching trees - something you'll likely never do again.

It would also limit the feeling of tediousness from basic harvesting tools breaking. Just don't let them break. Make it so they do not damage non-basic resource nodes at all. So, you've gated harvesting specials, but opened harvesting basics to anyone, at all times. Then make all the basics necessary for building structures, and boom.

I think one of the reasons they do not do this, based on some of the things said in recent live streams, is that the crafting of these tools and the process by which it is done, is meant to train playes in the mechanics involved. Even if players were given the things you mentioned and spared of having to craft them, they would still need to learn these systems for more the advanced versions. It is specifically why the equipment racks were removed. Not sure I agree with that decision, but at least it has some logic behind it.

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2 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

I think one of the reasons they do not do this, based on some of the things said in recent live streams, is that the crafting of these tools and the process by which it is done, is meant to train playes in the mechanics involved. Even if players were given the things you mentioned and spared of having to craft them, they would still need to learn these systems for more the advanced versions. It is specifically why the equipment racks were removed. Not sure I agree with that decision, but at least it has some logic behind it.

Yes, I have heard and understand this logic too. But, it's a flawed premise. If a person is going to harvest/craft, there will be a first thing harvested/crafted. Whether that is basic or intermediate or advanced is irrelevant to it being "first." 

I have no problem with the first crafted thing not being the first weapon I use - as long as it is better than the basic I get for free. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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4 minutes ago, McTan said:

Yes, I have heard and understand this logic too. But, it's a flawed premise. If a person is going to harvest/craft, there will be a first thing harvested/crafted. Whether that is basic or intermediate or advanced is irrelevant to it being "first." 

I have no problem with the first crafted thing not being the first weapon I use - as long as it is better than the basic I get for free. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so.

I think the idea is that the first thing, which as you say, will exist, is better off being a tool that costs 3 wood, than an advanced weapon that could cost 18 wood, 51 ore and 6 stone. Learning is painful enough as it is, no need to make it involve more pain than the minimum amount possible, something which the basic tools definitely embody.

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8 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

I think the idea is that the first thing, which as you say, will exist, is better off being a tool that costs 3 wood, than an advanced weapon that could cost 18 wood, 51 ore and 6 stone. Learning is painful enough as it is, no need to make it involve more pain than the minimum amount possible, something which the basic tools definitely embody.

Learning is not inherently "painful". It's what drives you to learn that dictates how you feel about the process. For me, I have very little desire to learn about what I consider boring. Some may think its just fine content, and that's fine. I just believe it to be uninspired, dull, and lacking immersion. I just thinking summoning a magical blue axe is poorly uninteresting, and on top of that ask yourself where the magical blue axe came from? A "sigil" crafted from paper and ore, and a "runestone" crafted from stone. That, sir, is not very rich or interesting. Thus, I consider it a drag to engage in.

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7 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

I think the idea is that the first thing, which as you say, will exist, is better off being a tool that costs 3 wood, than an advanced weapon that could cost 18 wood, 51 ore and 6 stone. Learning is painful enough as it is, no need to make it involve more pain than the minimum amount possible, something which the basic tools definitely embody.

Following the same logic, wouldn't it be better for that first thing to be something that cost nothing? And is automatically retrieved through any basic vessel?


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Also worth considering is most of the issues with gathering early on become less of an issue with more training.  Tool durability, rate of resource acquisition, ease of gathering higher tier resources, all of these things become easier as you train the respective skills.  It won't be quick but over time playing things do get easier.  I mean even starting in a campaign with absolutely no import won't be a huge issue once you've gone far enough down the gathering skill trees.

And yes I understand that saying "it gets better later" doesn't help the initial impression of gathering.  Honestly though, just like with combat, you have to start somewhere and at the start you're never anywhere near as strong/useful as you are once you hit cap.  

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1 minute ago, ArcJurado said:

Also worth considering is most of the issues with gathering early on become less of an issue with more training.  Tool durability, rate of resource acquisition, ease of gathering higher tier resources, all of these things become easier as you train the respective skills.  It won't be quick but over time playing things do get easier.  I mean even starting in a campaign with absolutely no import won't be a huge issue once you've gone far enough down the gathering skill trees.

And yes I understand that saying "it gets better later" doesn't help the initial impression of gathering.  Honestly though, just like with combat, you have to start somewhere and at the start you're never anywhere near as strong/useful as you are once you hit cap.  

For me the issue is not for people who want to train harvesting, but for people who do not. "You have to start somewhere" is exactly the conversation we need, and in my opinion, where we start now: in a basic vessel with no tools and no equipment of any kind, should be replaced by: in a basic vessel with basic tools and basic equipment. The earliest harvesting should be to improve on this low quality basic equipment, not create it.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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8 hours ago, touchmybow said:

Learning is not inherently "painful". It's what drives you to learn that dictates how you feel about the process. For me, I have very little desire to learn about what I consider boring. Some may think its just fine content, and that's fine. I just believe it to be uninspired, dull, and lacking immersion. I just thinking summoning a magical blue axe is poorly uninteresting, and on top of that ask yourself where the magical blue axe came from? A "sigil" crafted from paper and ore, and a "runestone" crafted from stone. That, sir, is not very rich or interesting. Thus, I consider it a drag to engage in.

I am curious, what would you consider to be a suitably interesting alternative?

 

8 hours ago, McTan said:

Following the same logic, wouldn't it be better for that first thing to be something that cost nothing? And is automatically retrieved through any basic vessel?

I do not know. Part of the requirement for learning the process includes having to gather the materials and make the item.

Look, if someone has trouble with gathering 3 wood, and the effort and self-reliance involved in these basic things, release-level Crowfall with the hardcore PvPer that will be swimming in it like sharks is going to be a very severe wake-up call. I don't actually disagree with you in priciple, but in practice, in this context specifically, I feel their approach in this regard at least is not a bad one.

Edited by Anthrage

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5 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Look, if someone has trouble with gathering 3 wood, and the effort and self-reliance involved in these basic things, release-level Crowfall with the hardcore PvPer that will be swimming in it like sharks is going to be a very severe wake-up call. I don't actually disagree with you in priciple, but in practice, in this context specifically, I feel their approach in this regard at least is not a bad one.

I have trouble gathering 3 wood, the effort and self-reliance involved in these basic things, is my point, because they break faster being used on basic activity, than advanced stuff being used on advanced resources. I do not have trouble gathering and crafting for the earliest "advanced" stuff. Harvesting and crafting the basic stuff is made all the more tedious because it is basic, IMO. 

Let me offer a possible alternative: ask people to harvest and craft basic things: tools, weapons & armor. But then, those basic things never break and never get lost. Do it in the EK as a "tutorial," enter the first CW with those things permanent attached to your Crow-soul.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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1 minute ago, McTan said:

For me the issue is not for people who want to train harvesting, but for people who do not. "You have to start somewhere" is exactly the conversation we need, and in my opinion, where we start now: in a basic vessel with no tools and no equipment of any kind, should be replaced by: in a basic vessel with basic tools and basic equipment. The earliest harvesting should be to improve on this low quality basic equipment, not create it.

Honestly I don't agree that you need to be provided with equipment from the start.  Making your first set of tools is not a painful process and it shows you the basics.  You start with nothing and you can very quickly and easily figure out how to make a full set of tools.  3 wood for your first axe and then 6 more for the hammer and pick.  It teaches you the very basics of crafting and gathering.  It shows you how to get materials, how to make them into equipment and that the basic logic of what tools to use on what.  

Starting with literally nothing is how the devs have decided they want to start the game, it's fairly traditional for a survival game.  While tradition should be challenged, this one isn't really causing an issue in my opinion and changing it the way you suggest doesn't necessarily improve it.  It speeds you through the process but I'd say both are honestly viable.  

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1 minute ago, Anthrage said:

I am curious, what would you consider to be a suitably interesting alternative?

It's not my place to say. This game was built a certain way and I'm disappointed to see how it was built. We could argue all day about who's tastes and preferences are more relevant, but the house always wins. I just hope that when conflicting opinions arise, developers adapt their creative designs with a desire to create an even better and more accessible system.

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1 hour ago, McTan said:

 

Let me offer a possible alternative: ask people to harvest and craft basic things: tools, weapons & armor. But then, those basic things never break and never get lost. Do it in the EK as a "tutorial," enter the first CW with those things permanent attached to your Crow-soul.

I think this idea is great

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