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VIKINGNAIL

Do not soft launch until you have strong anticheat.

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Cheaters can kill a game very quickly (as we learned with shadowbane)

We've played CF.  We know the current intention is to soft launch this year.  I'm not sure how well anticheat works for a game that won't be fully release ready but if ACE doesn't have a strong anticheat for soft launch it's going to be ugly for the game.  

The price for the game is a small deterrent but in reality hackers these days pay hundreds/thousands for private cheats and it isn't going to deter the committed hackers.  

It's a never ending battle, but if there isn't a strong commitment and allocation of resources on ACE's part to stop cheaters it's going to drive players off really quickly.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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cheaters is a big problem, I agree. usually cheaters - ppl who get stronger in pvp or abuse (items dupe and such) with package sniffers.

I think CF design is built in such a way that it will not be much noticeable. I mean banks slots is low, items stacks is low.

the battle mechanics is casual. so, they can only did some unlimited CD or play with oneshots and something which can be noticable and reported -> ban. all other silent undetected cheats like aimbot has no reason in CF.

only one can be viable - detection, but there is also tracking in skill tree

 

damn, ACE even thing about boting.

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

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2 hours ago, makkon said:

cheaters is a big problem, I agree. usually cheaters - ppl who get stronger in pvp or abuse (items dupe and such) with package sniffers.

I think CF design is built in such a way that it will not be much noticeable. I mean banks slots is low, items stacks is low.

the battle mechanics is casual. so, they can only did some unlimited CD or play with oneshots and something which can be noticable and reported -> ban. all other silent undetected cheats like aimbot has no reason in CF.

only one can be viable - detection, but there is also tracking in skill tree

 

damn, ACE even thing about boting.

I dropped The Division because the developers didn't ban the cheaters. Blizzard banned 1500+ (or some number similar) in Overwatch and it was a hardware ID ban so even buying the game again didn't allow the person to play. I'm still playing it off and on.

problem CF has is that items are tradeable for VIP which means if a person could dupe items they could get VIP.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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2 minutes ago, jetah said:

I dropped The Division because the developers didn't ban the cheaters. Blizzard banned 1500+ (or some number similar) in Overwatch and it was a hardware ID ban so even buying the game again didn't allow the person to play. I'm still playing it off and on.

problem CF has is that items are tradeable for VIP which means if a person could dupe items they could get VIP.

the Division, Overwatch, Darkfall, Counter strike,  and such - they all have an one main common - non target. I can call it "skill" based. (overwatch actually not coz aim also pretty easy)

This is main reason why ppl download cheats for this games. 100% accuracy, radars and such - dramatically increase "skill"

CF is not a game about "skill". In Darkfall I need to spent weeks in duels training, party training to be success. In CF I need 1 evening and read skills.

 

Not sure CF cheats will be pay off


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

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24 minutes ago, makkon said:

the Division, Overwatch, Darkfall, Counter strike,  and such - they all have an one main common - non target. I can call it "skill" based. (overwatch actually not coz aim also pretty easy)

This is main reason why ppl download cheats for this games. 100% accuracy, radars and such - dramatically increase "skill"

CF is not a game about "skill". In Darkfall I need to spent weeks in duels training, party training to be success. In CF I need 1 evening and read skills.

 

Not sure CF cheats will be pay off

 

So they won’t dupe or teleport or other things? Cause I’ve been on the net for a while to know people will cheat if there isn’t protection and even then they’ll try to get around it. 

Remember that CF is about winning the campaign so any cheat will help even aim bots. 


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38 minutes ago, jetah said:

 

So they won’t dupe or teleport or other things? Cause I’ve been on the net for a while to know people will cheat if there isn’t protection and even then they’ll try to get around it. 

Remember that CF is about winning the campaign so any cheat will help even aim bots. 

Pretty much this. I remember early days of Guild Wars 2, a bunch of cheaters showed up in WvW. As in, teleporting everywhere, flying across the map etc.
People will cheat if they have the means to, it doesn't matter what the stakes are.


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Usually early access games have not gotten around to working on integrating good release-quality anticheats and protections when they release their games, and this tends to let cheaters run wild early on and leave a very bad impression of the quality of the game.  

I'd love for ACE to do hardware bans, a lot of making CF is them figuring stuff out as they go and learning, anticheat is one thing that has to be done amazingly and can't be cobbled together for their soft launch.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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As a matter of fact, cheats run on PCs of some (so-called) players and surely are not allowed on a server, whichever MMORPG we have. 
Then cheating is due by the ability of a client to change server knowdledge of the world.

Meanwhile since the beginning ACE invested on client predictive power and reading a post by blair about how engeneers work:
"To avoid easy cheating we're calling the thing the server does the state of the world and anything a client sees an approximation. To improve look and feel on your client, we pretend that your client's view of the world is the right one and correct when we learn otherwise."

While I agree a concern about cheats is critical before launch, I trust the problem was addressed since the development of core system of Crowfall.


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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I dont know if it is necessary to tell them this. I expect them to not half-ass in anything and that includes anti-cheating control.

The concept of "soft-launch" is kinda fuzzy though. I assume the core game includes pretty much anything necessary for a stable game but i think they never outright said it...

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3 hours ago, RikForFun said:

As a matter of fact, cheats run on PCs of some (so-called) players and surely are not allowed on a server, whichever MMORPG we have. 
Then cheating is due by the ability of a client to change server knowdledge of the world.

Meanwhile since the beginning ACE invested on client predictive power and reading a post by blair about how engeneers work:
"To avoid easy cheating we're calling the thing the server does the state of the world and anything a client sees an approximation. To improve look and feel on your client, we pretend that your client's view of the world is the right one and correct when we learn otherwise."

While I agree a concern about cheats is critical before launch, I trust the problem was addressed since the development of core system of Crowfall.

You can build a game from the ground up to make it difficult to hack in, it's still going to get hacked to pieces if you don't have good anticheat. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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21 hours ago, makkon said:

CF is not a game about "skill". In Darkfall I need to spent weeks in duels training, party training to be success. In CF I need 1 evening and read skills.

Sad face :(

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20 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You can build a game from the ground up to make it difficult to hack in, it's still going to get hacked to pieces if you don't have good anticheat. 

I don't think so.
I'm quite familiar with coding and I'm sure hacks don't work without a system is vulnerable in some point.

Obviously somebody can hack to piece Crowfall if they know that Todd's own password is "Joshua", but we are not in a film of year 80s. :P


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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24 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

Also anti-cheat is not really something they can talk about much, the more they do, they easier they make it for the cheaters to get around it

This is true but we still need to emphasize that they do need anticheat, good anticheat, even for a soft launch, or their game can get crippled by cheaters/hackers.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The best anti-cheat is simply to never trust the client and use server data as authoritative... They did this early on.

The second-best is to have strong encryption on the data stream to prevent tipping your hand - pretty sure they did this too.

The third-best is to generate unique UUIDs for every item in the game that can be placed in inventory, because this makes it trivial to detect duplication. Not sure if they did this.

Finally you get to the typical 'anti-cheat' system which tends to be a utility that runs on the client and watches application memory for injection. If you did option 1 through 3 above, you don't really need this.


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24 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

The best anti-cheat is simply to never trust the client and use server data as authoritative... They did this early on.

The second-best is to have strong encryption on the data stream to prevent tipping your hand - pretty sure they did this too.

The third-best is to generate unique UUIDs for every item in the game that can be placed in inventory, because this makes it trivial to detect duplication. Not sure if they did this.

Finally you get to the typical 'anti-cheat' system which tends to be a utility that runs on the client and watches application memory for injection. If you did option 1 through 3 above, you don't really need this.

What's your view on things like hardware bans?  Is it an effective method to deterring cheaters?


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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37 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

What's your view on things like hardware bans?  Is it an effective method to deterring cheaters?

Not really. There's no real hardware ID that can't be easily spoofed.

The best option is to not allow cheating in the first place with proper design and code. For an example of how to do everything wrong with regard to cheating an MMO, read up on "The Division". :D


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Lets distinguish cheating into two categories:  hacking and botting.

In the hacking category we have teleports, wall hacks, speed hacks, duping, etc. In order for hacking to work, Crowfall needs to have an exploitable bug (or exploitable feature). By not trusting the client (as is typical in Unreal Engine games) they can avoid a large class of these kinds of hacks. But software is extremely complex, and even well reviewed security protocols turn out to be wrong and hackable. So hacks will arise; nobody writes perfect code. What ACE needs to do is monitor for anomolies and have a team that works 24/7 to investigate these anomolies and determine if they have been hacked, and then to fix the bug. This will always be an ongoing effort.

One other hacking-based cheat, the "lag switch", doesn't exploit a bug, it just uses the granted window-of-opportunity to attempt to manipulate the server's notion of when a movement command was issued.  It's less of an issue without trusting the client, but still there is a window of manipulation available. Again , they should monitor for these sorts of anomolies.

In the botting category, we have aim bots, macro-mining, radar alarms, etc. These are theoretically impossible to completely detect. Even WoW's warden doesn't know everything; and if you run under a VM (in the proper manner) you can run cheats outside of the space that warden is even aware of. Most players are not skilled enough to cheat in a way that ACE could not possibly detect, or else they don't have the technology to do so. But organizations running out of China and Korea that are well funded could implement these kinds of cheats, and never be detected. Macroing can be made to look "human" and "random" by introducing random delays. Radar alarms could be a raspberry pi camera with AI software pointed at a UI element on the screen that screams if an enemy is detected. And even an encrypted protocol needs a key somewhere in the client... with enough resources, that key will be found out, so the protocol can be decrypted outside of the game client.

Due to the technical impossibility of actually solving the botting problem, I've always advocated server-side macros in a "if you can't beat them, join them" kind of capitulation. Those macros could be used to run shop keepers.

 

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On 1/14/2018 at 8:46 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

 

The price for the game is a small deterrent but in reality hackers these days pay hundreds/thousands for private cheats and it isn't going to deter the committed hackers.  

It's a never ending battle, but if there isn't a strong commitment and allocation of resources on ACE's part to stop cheaters it's going to drive players off really quickly.

Even in games that are well known to ban cheaters, and have no lasting in game goals, they will spend an accounts value for troll factor alone. 

PUBG has banned as of Dec 29 1.5 million players.  Even still the cheaters keep buying accounts to play and get banned again.  I've seen streams where a fellow named "speed gonzales" was using the speed hack to run around like the Flash. Obviously a paid for throw away account fully expecting to get banned but enjoying the cheat just the same. I have also heard that culturally speaking people from China have way fewer hangups with being branded a cheater. It's not really a moral consideration for them.

ACE has to be very obviously in support of banning cheaters, even if the software for detecting it isn't fully fleshed out at the start.  If they are at all tolerant, for any reason, it's going to leave a very bad impression.

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9 hours ago, raeshlavik said:

The best anti-cheat is simply to never trust the client and use server data as authoritative... They did this early on.

The second-best is to have strong encryption on the data stream to prevent tipping your hand - pretty sure they did this too.

The third-best is to generate unique UUIDs for every item in the game that can be placed in inventory, because this makes it trivial to detect duplication. Not sure if they did this.

Finally you get to the typical 'anti-cheat' system which tends to be a utility that runs on the client and watches application memory for injection. If you did option 1 through 3 above, you don't really need this.

As I understand it, setting up an immutable ledger blockchain with your own economic policy like Etherium is not a huge task these days.  If they made every item a programmable contract they could not only detect duplication, but follow every item from birth to destruction.

Might be too much work to shoehorn it in, but hey what company doesn't want to raise it's profile and value by simply saying they are using blockchain these days?

 

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