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VIKINGNAIL

This is the ruleset that brings ACE the most $$$

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10 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It's going to be a huge misstep if ACE designs a system with flexibility only to not incorporate ruleset combinations that would actually be most attractive for their game.  This isn't early 2000s where the only people playing MMORPGs are a small crowd that are mainly PvErs and generally carebear, it's 2018 and there is such a huge population of PvP focused players and specifically ones more used to harder rulesets.

And what are you basing the assertion on?, lets see some NUMBERS here, not just some "I think..." BS

Yeah I don't really expect you to answer this, cause I am fairly certain you don't have anything to back up your statement

Edited by Gummiel

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5 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

And what are you basing the assertion on?, lets see some NUMBERS here, not just some "I think..." BS

Yeah I don't really expect you to answer this, cause I am fairly certain you don't have anything to back up your statement

Have you been out into the modern gaming scene?  Do you understand how antiquated people/games appear to modern gamers when they are terrified of things like proximity chat and competitive PvP games and environments?  

What numbers do you want?  You need proof that the mmo population is bigger now than in the early 2000s?  I mean WoW cracked 12million subs, GW2 cracked 4million sales, heck even games like lineage 2 revolution have 5 million accounts.

You need proof that PvP focused gamers are a huge population?  PUBG 20million copies sold, Fortnite millions more within weeks after they put in battle royale mode.  LoL Dota2 CSGO PUBG all with millions of concurrent players daily/weekly.  

You living under a rock?


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just now, Tinnis said:

he just wants to turn crowfall into an e-sports moba/battle royale $$$

Actually I'm the first person on these forums to tell ACE to never make CF an esport as it goes against the nature of MMORPGs that should be focused on open world interaction and not mini arenas.  Seems like your biases got the best of you again!  Shucks!


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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A game that is designed to give options seems a bit silly not giving the option to have worlds that fall more in line with what is proven to be popular and in high demand in the present. 

Especially when those options really aren't that hard to achieve.  They already have worlds that read your level of training, they already have the ability to scale who can be hit by spells and who can't.  And they'll obviously have the ability to scale import rules.  

It works out much better for them if they just cover the spectrum from hardcore to softcore completely instead of ignoring hardcore players.  The last thing they should want is for hardcore players to be forced to try the game out on softer campaign rules, that will just be less fun for the hardcore players while also being unfun for the players who wanted a softer experience but ended up having to deal with hardcore players.

 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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8 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Have you been out into the modern gaming scene?  Do you understand how antiquated people/games appear to modern gamers when they are terrified of things like proximity chat and competitive PvP games and environments?  

What numbers do you want?  You need proof that the mmo population is bigger now than in the early 2000s?  I mean WoW cracked 12million subs, GW2 cracked 4million sales, heck even games like lineage 2 revolution have 5 million accounts.

You need proof that PvP focused gamers are a huge population?  PUBG 20million copies sold, Fortnite millions more within weeks after they put in battle royale mode.  LoL Dota2 CSGO PUBG all with millions of concurrent players daily/weekly.  

You living under a rock?

Yeah this was the kind of reply I expected, no actual evidence, you can't make business (which is what a game company is still doing in the end) based on your gut-feeling of playing certain times of day in your own country's timezone only. You need to make a proper market analysis, which alone will take weeks, to get proper data. If you dont have anything like that, stop making bold claims about how you know how the market is.

As for your questions to me, they are meaningless, cause I never claimed I had any data, and never told you, if you points about the market were right or wrong, but rather I asked you to actually give some actual sources for your very bold claims

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6 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

Yeah this was the kind of reply I expected, no actual evidence, you can't make business (which is what a game company is still doing in the end) based on your gut-feeling of playing certain times of day in your own country's timezone only. You need to make a proper market analysis, which alone will take weeks, to get proper data. If you dont have anything like that, stop making bold claims about how you know how the market is.

As for your questions to me, they are meaningless, cause I never claimed I had any data, and never told you, if you points about the market were right or wrong, but rather I asked you to actually give some actual sources for your very bold claims

You need evidence for things that have already been covered countless times in gaming news?  Do you think if I mention to JTC or GW that WoW has already broken 12 million subs they are going to be in disbelief and demand proof?  They already know, it's commonly known, it's already been reported countless times. 

What you are going to be infinitely happier if I actually link you an article where blizzard announces hitting that milestone?

http://www.pcgamer.com/playerunknowns-battlegrounds-has-sold-more-than-20-million-copies/

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/fortnite-passes-40-million-downloads/1100-6456122/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/10/11/pubg-breaks-2-million-concurrent-players-on-steam-for-the-first-time/#6c32dcba2689

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/27/riots-league-of-legends-reveals-astonishing-27-million-daily-players-67-million-monthly/#61c3a87f6d39

This is already common knowledge, you believing it or not does not make it any less true, nor does it make me any less credible if I link it or not.  This is a case of people being very oblivious to what is going on in modern games.  

That out-of-touchness is driving a lot of the feedback on these forums and giving ACE at times very false reads on what their game is doing well and isn't doing well.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You need evidence for things that have already been covered countless times in gaming news?  Do you think if I mention to JTC or GW that WoW has already broken 12 million subs they are going to be in disbelief and demand proof?  They already know, it's commonly known, it's already been reported countless times. 

What you are going to be infinitely happier if I actually link you an article where blizzard announces hitting that milestone?

http://www.pcgamer.com/playerunknowns-battlegrounds-has-sold-more-than-20-million-copies/

This is already common knowledge, you believing it or not does not make it any less true, nor does it make me any less credible if I link it or not.  This is a case of people being very oblivious to what is going on in modern games.  

Why do you even keep mentioning WoW? The average WoW player is not exactly the person that will want what you are asking for, like full-FF etc.

and copies sold (in the case of the PUBG/fortnite you talk about) is just about the more useless number you could get, concurrent players a few months after launch is a much more useful statistic, and regardless PUBG/fortnite is not even MMO's, and probably most ppl playing those anyway would not be interested in 3+months long games

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17 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

Why do you even keep mentioning WoW? The average WoW player is not exactly the person that will want what you are asking for, like full-FF etc.

and copies sold (in the case of the PUBG/fortnite you talk about) is just about the more useless number you could get, concurrent players a few months after launch is a much more useful statistic, and regardless PUBG/fortnite is not even MMO's, and probably most ppl playing those anyway would not be interested in 3+months long games

Copies sold generally indicates a higher demand and will generally correlate with higher concurrent users than games with much lower sales.

What exactly are you basing that claim off of?  Do you have a ton of experience playing with PUBG and FORTNITE crowds to know what they love about those kinds of games?  

Were you there to see the transition as  the community went from arma2 battle royale to arma3 battle royale to h1z1 to pubg while also attracting the survival junkies from games like dayz and rust?

Survival games are a hit, hardcore survival games are a hit, battle royale survival games are a hit.  Gigantic hits, probably the fastest growing genre with the most pvp-centric playerbase.  

Biggest streamers on twitch?  Majority getting their most views playing these battle royale and survival games.  Shroud, Lirik, Summit1g, DrDisrespect.

Should ACE just not offer rulesets that would be in high demand even though they have the means to do it pretty easily?  I have faith that at least GW will see the benefit as it is not really selling out as long as they can offer other variety as well.  And guess what, everyone benefits if ACE can do well financially, because then they have more resources to poor back into the game.  

What really drives any of these pvp games, mmos, battle royale, survival, moba alike?  Emergent content and emergent behavior that created it.  Why are the survival genre and its battle royale offshoot and even games JTC mentions like minecraft doing so well?  Because they weren't afraid to take the gloves off and give people the wildwest and let those players do what they want in those sandboxes and create content for each other.  So why would it ever be wise for ACE to hamstring CF by not having hardcore rulesets more in line with what is already so prevalent in the modern gaming scene?  What exactly do you think CF's image should be, soft mmo pvp?  Gritty play2crush pvp?  

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Is it only me that completely and totally disregards someone as soon as they use the term 'carebear'?

Anyway, defining PvP by the games that contain it is like defining art by the medium in use - sure it's art, but what kind of art?

Most of the PvP games touted here are either MOBAs or scenario shooters, which don't apply to Crowfall's design... if you actually isolate the PvP mode (not the general game loop, but the specific PvP modality) in an actual MMORPG, you'll find it to be very comparable to Crowfall's intent.

Crowfall does mix things up a bit by adding emphasis to the duration of the PvP and the involvement of the team/guild though. Most MMO-based PvP is very short attention-span and very lone-wolf; the win-condition is attained very quickly (open-world or arena (1v1, 3v3, 5v5) conflicts are over in minutes, MOBA-style "battleground" matches are generally over in under an hour, longer RvR scenarios run maybe a week before the static reset, etc.) and the only time you need to rely on someone else is if the win-condition requires people to stand somewhere for a time to achieve it.

Crowfall wants to run PvP engagements over months, utilizing ever-changing environments, and the game design demands group participation because the win-condition requires building/destroying things over the duration.

The one PvP game I've not seen anyone mention by way of comparison is Eve Online, which is funny because it's the closest to Crowfall's design... Which as a 'hardcore PvP MMO' has been ticking along nicely since 2003 - and the biggest complaint it has is the universe needs periodic resets to dethrone BoB (who dethroned themselves, but that's a tale for another time)... Which, oddly enough, Crowfall does.

So, sure, dream up new rule-sets that you think people will like, but try to refrain from the hyperbole that the mythical everyone stands with your singular opinion.

Edited by raeshlavik

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4 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

Is it only me that completely and totally disregards someone as soon as they use the term 'carebear'?

How ironic.  

Anyway, defining PvP by the games that contain it is like defining art by the medium in use - sure it's art, but what kind of art?

Most of the PvP games touted here are either MOBAs or scenario shooters, which don't apply to Crowfall's design... if you actually isolate the PvP mode (not the general game loop, but the specific PvP modality) in an actual MMORPG, you'll find it to be very comparable to Crowfall's intent.

To me this mentality is shortsighted.  PvP is PvP, the way crowfall's PvP plays is not much different than say a game like smite.  That is not an mmorpg and you'll find that the actual gameplay experience of PvP as in the mechanics and flow have nothing to do with the genre of the game.  It would be like saying crowfall must have raids because the action combat shares similarities with eso or gw2 as well.  

Crowfall does mix things up a bit by adding emphasis to the duration of the PvP and the involvement of the team/guild though. Most MMO-based PvP is very short attention-span and very lone-wolf; the win-condition is attained very quickly (open-world or arena (1v1, 3v3, 5v5) conflicts are over in minutes, MOBA-style "battleground" matches are generally over in under an hour, longer RvR scenarios run maybe a week before the static reset, etc.) and the only time you need to rely on someone else is if the win-condition requires people to stand somewhere for a time to achieve it.

Crowfall wants to run PvP engagements over months, utilizing ever-changing environments, and the game design demands group participation because the win-condition requires building/destroying things over the duration.

Weeks + months.  PvPers like good PvP if crowfall has good PvP it is not automatically going to turn off the majority of pvp-centric gamers just because the duration is longer, if people have fun while playing that's what matters.

The one PvP game I've not anyone mention by way of comparison is Eve Online, which is funny because it's the closest to Crowfall's design... Which as a 'hardcore PvP MMO' has been ticking along nicely since 2003 - and the biggest complaint it has is the universe needs periodic resets to dethrone BoB (who dethroned themselves, but that's a tale for another time)... Which, oddly enough, Crowfall does.

CF and Eve are not close to each other in design, Eve does not reset, Eve is not an action combat game.  Eve is a slow spreadsheet game with a fitting slow training system to match.  CF is an action combat game with resetting worlds with a slow training system that does not match.  Eve is also not a hardcore PvP MMO, it's a slow-paced game generally designed to attract an older slower type of gamer.  

So, sure, dream up new rule-sets that you think people will like, but try to refrain from the hyperbole that the mythical everyone stands with your singular opinion.

Never once have I indicated everyone stands with my opinion, but I think this thread clearly shows that there are people out there that aren't really experienced with the modern gaming scene, and I definitely know how those players think a lot better than some people here seem to.  

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

A game that is designed to give options seems a bit silly not giving the option to have worlds that fall more in line with what is proven to be popular and in high demand in the present. 

Especially when those options really aren't that hard to achieve.  They already have worlds that read your level of training, they already have the ability to scale who can be hit by spells and who can't.  And they'll obviously have the ability to scale import rules.  

It works out much better for them if they just cover the spectrum from hardcore to softcore completely instead of ignoring hardcore players.  The last thing they should want is for hardcore players to be forced to try the game out on softer campaign rules, that will just be less fun for the hardcore players while also being unfun for the players who wanted a softer experience but ended up having to deal with hardcore players.

I think it is a little too soon to say ACE is completely ignoring hardcore players and that harsher rulesets wont be harsh enough. We have as of now the austounding amount of 1 ruleset released (tug of war) and honestly it is a pretty underwhelming one. As you said it wouldnt be hard for them to change some details to make the dregs a harder ruleset.

The only point worth talking about is FF since it should be considered when developting combat as a whole. It is a thing from the start or it is better to forget it.

I dont think we will see Full FF (combat isnt precise enough for that IMO) but hitting non-party members seems enough to me. Making this possible would also be trivial since it is only a matter of treating everyone else as an enemy.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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12 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

How ironic.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

12 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

To me this mentality is shortsighted.  PvP is PvP

This is irony...

In that mentality, chess is the same as D&D is the same as PUBG is the same as poker; all are players versus other players, right?

The problem is, they are totally different things that appeal to different people. Twitchy shooter people may not like Crowfall's PvP - this is fine, they are not the same thing. MOBA warriors who bank on playing pre-gen characters may not like having to actually create a character in D&D - which is also fine, they are not the same thing.

Where the problem comes in is when a fan of (A) decides that there needs to be more (A) in (B) because (insert generalization about market, players, or [current year] here).

20 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

PvPers like good PvP

I'm a huge fan of 4x games (which are PvP) because I'm a tactician and I crush people with supply chains, market manipulation, and diplomatic agreements. But I also despise shooters (also PvP) because I don't enjoy jumping around, circle strafing everything, and they have entirely too much rinse and repeat.

The difference is I don't head over to The Shooter Forum and complain that there's not enough 4X in it...

So your generalization is false. PvPers like good PvP that interests them.

And unfortunately I need to head to work. So that's about all I have time to refute. :)


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17 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

This is irony...

In that mentality, chess is the same as D&D is the same as PUBG is the same as poker; all are players versus other players, right?

The problem is, they are totally different things that appeal to different people. Twitchy shooter people may not like Crowfall's PvP - this is fine, they are not the same thing. MOBA warriors who bank on playing pre-gen characters may not like having to actually create a character in D&D - which is also fine, they are not the same thing.

Where the problem comes in is when a fan of (A) decides that there needs to be more (A) in (B) because (insert generalization about market, players, or [current year] here).

I'm a huge fan of 4x games (which are PvP) because I'm a tactician and I crush people with supply chains, market manipulation, and diplomatic agreements. But I also despise shooters (also PvP) because I don't enjoy jumping around, circle strafing everything, and they have entirely too much rinse and repeat.

The difference is I don't head over to The Shooter Forum and complain that there's not enough 4X in it...

So your generalization is false. PvPers like good PvP that interests them.

And unfortunately I need to head to work. So that's about all I have time to refute. :)

Give this man a prize! WINNER!


.

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2 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I think it is a little too soon to say ACE is completely ignoring hardcore players and that harsher rulesets wont be harsh enough. We have as of now the austounding amount of 1 ruleset released (tug of war) and honestly it is a pretty underwhelming one. As you said it wouldnt be hard for them to change some details to make the dregs a harder ruleset.

The only point worth talking about is FF since it should be considered when developting combat as a whole. It is a thing from the start or it is better to forget it.

I dont think we will see Full FF (combat isnt precise enough for that IMO) but hitting non-party members seems enough to me. Making this possible would also be trivial since it is only a matter of treating everyone else as an enemy.

I've seen plenty of evidence that they are ignoring hardcore players and harsher rulesets.  It's a shame I can't necessarily share all that evidence. 

1 hour ago, raeshlavik said:

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

This is irony...

In that mentality, chess is the same as D&D is the same as PUBG is the same as poker; all are players versus other players, right?

The problem is, they are totally different things that appeal to different people. Twitchy shooter people may not like Crowfall's PvP - this is fine, they are not the same thing. MOBA warriors who bank on playing pre-gen characters may not like having to actually create a character in D&D - which is also fine, they are not the same thing.

Where the problem comes in is when a fan of (A) decides that there needs to be more (A) in (B) because (insert generalization about market, players, or [current year] here).

I'm a huge fan of 4x games (which are PvP) because I'm a tactician and I crush people with supply chains, market manipulation, and diplomatic agreements. But I also despise shooters (also PvP) because I don't enjoy jumping around, circle strafing everything, and they have entirely too much rinse and repeat.

The difference is I don't head over to The Shooter Forum and complain that there's not enough 4X in it...

So your generalization is false. PvPers like good PvP that interests them.

And unfortunately I need to head to work. So that's about all I have time to refute. :)

The irony was that your behavior was like the label you scoff at.  

The problem is it sounds like you are a bit inexperienced with other genres.  You are seeing a lot of hybrid types of games where mmorpg, fps, moba all have games that vastly differ from one another and are often similar to ones you might find in other genres.  Smite for example is action combat, completely different from LoL and in this case very close to Crowfall a game that is considered an MMORPG.  

You have your preferences, but they actually don't seem to match with crowfall, they seem more suited for a game like Eve.  You seem to like things slow, CF is an action combat game.  I mean things you bemoan, like jumping, and circle strafing, and I imagine dashy abilities all exist in CF.  

This isn't really your forum, it's a forum for a game in development that has changed its own identity in many significant ways over the course of development.  Some of those were very easy to project for people like me and not so easy to project for people that tried to define crowfall based on their own personal preferences instead of where the systems would naturally lead to based on what they were trying to throw together.   

This game is built upon flexibility with many different rules to choose from.  There can be rules for softer players and rules for more competitive pvpers, and just because competitive pvpers want a place to play in too has nothing to do with "gosh darn twitchy people" and you definitely aren't entitled to having more of a game to play than they are.  Especially cause your natural tastes seem to conflict with the direction CF is headed combat wise.  

Honestly to me it's been pretty funny seeing people over the years try to prevent CF from having truly hardcore rulesets when it's so easy to implement and there is such a high demand for that type of pvp experience right now.  It's like people are cool with the game giving you options you enjoy, but you seem terrified of giving hardcore pvpers the options they would enjoy? 

But let's keep it related to the thread.  In your mind how exactly would the advice I've given to add more options for a playerbase that already exists through other games be bad for this game?  Where should the line be drawn and who should ACE cater to?

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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14 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I've seen plenty of evidence that they are ignoring hardcore players and harsher rulesets.  It's a shame I can't necessarily share all that evidence. 

Tsk. This is probably related to the exclusive backer forum and its NDA.

To be fair i dont really like that. I understand you guys supported the game and all that but sometimes i get the feeling that there is too much information being withholded. Couple this with the not so informative updates we get most of the time and it becomes hard to ignore that there exist information but it just isnt shared.

Take VN quote above, it implies multiple situations but i cant even begin to guess what the hell he is talking about. Are we even talking about the same game? How different can the information available be? It is not the first time this happens either.

Again, i understand the preferential treatment for people who put their money in and arent all talk like me but perhaps the gap is too big? The fact that things are only shared when they are ready is probably the reason. You guys might consider sharing some of those ideas after letting them roll in the exclusive forum for a while.

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43 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The problem is it sounds like you are a bit inexperienced with other genres.  You are seeing a lot of hybrid types of games where mmorpg, fps, moba all have games that vastly differ from one another and are often similar to ones you might find in other genres.  Smite for example is action combat, completely different from LoL and in this case very close to Crowfall a game that is considered an MMORPG.

Actually, the problem is that your ability to miss a point is the very fabric of legend around here. When you can wrap your head around there being more to the game than the combat mechanics, we might actually have a discussion about PvP on our hands...

44 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You have your preferences, but they actually don't seem to match with crowfall, they seem more suited for a game like Eve.  You seem to like things slow, CF is an action combat game.  I mean things you bemoan, like jumping, and circle strafing, and I imagine dashy abilities all exist in CF.

Ahh, yes - the "throne war simulator" with it's reliance on player made everything, market dynamics, sociopolitical maneuvering, supply chain management, and many-month long campaign coordination is totally not within the spectrum of game I enjoy. Thank you for taking the time to tell me my preferences. Much appreciated. :)

See, this is the point you valiantly avoid; contrary to your extremely narrow focus on "my dude hits your dude" there are many kinds of PvP and Crowfall contains several varieties... Which is the point you continually miss when folks try to talk to you about this.

Your constant many-year quest to make mano-e-mano deathmatching the focus of Crowfall does nothing but illustrate that you don't really get the bigger picture of the game, which is why people mock you in these threads. The sum-total of Crowfall is not, and never has been (at least in everything I've seen - up to and including the investor documents) any sort of solo-artist one-on-one e-sport like you seem to think it should be.

This is not to say there cannot be a rule-set where everyone shows up naked and the last person standing is the winner; but this rule-set won't do diddly for the overall game if nothing from that rule-set feeds back into the other systems such as the aforementioned player made everything, market dynamics, sociopolitical maneuvering, supply chain management, and many-month long campaign coordination.

Leaderboard combat for the sake of leaderboard combat simply won't run the rest of the game - and that's the point a lot of people keep trying to impress upon you.

57 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

This game is built upon flexibility with many different rules to choose from.  There can be rules for softer players and rules for more competitive pvpers, and just because competitive pvpers want a place to play in too has nothing to do with "gosh darn twitchy people" and you definitely aren't entitled to having more of a game to play than they are.  Especially cause your natural tastes seem to conflict with the direction CF is headed combat wise.

Again, your personal bias not only blinds you to the reality of what is going on around you, but makes you a bit of a jerk in the process. As I illustrated above (which you will probably valiantly avoid again), my 'natural tastes' are more in-line with the overall design of Crowfall than I think you like to admit, because there is way more to the game than simply bashing each other over the head for internet points.

Yes, there can be lots of different rule-sets, but a rule-set cannot be what the game is not. "Competitive" combat can happen, sure, but it will (more than likely) never be the sole focus because the game is designed for factions/guilds interacting with a lot of systems to be successful as a group. "Competitive PvP" will (more than likely) be entire guilds fighting over things, "Leaderboards" will be successes measured in months.

If this doesn't sound like fun for you, you might be in the wrong place.

1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Honestly to me it's been pretty funny seeing people over the years try to prevent CF from having truly hardcore rulesets when it's so easy to implement and there is such a high demand for that type of pvp experience right now.  It's like people are cool with the game giving you options you enjoy, but you seem terrified of giving hardcore pvpers the options they would enjoy?

Oddly, the initial rule-band offering for the kickstarter was "the dregs"; for those who don't know this is low to zero import, no-faction, everyone is naked, FFA Crowfall... About as hardcore as Crowfall gets. If people are so afraid of this, why then did the Kickstarter bring in double what ACE was looking for?

I don't think anyone is "terrified of giving hardcore PvPers options"... I mean, have you played against any of the people on this forum? I can name ten, right now, who will drive you like a tent peg in straight up combat.

I think what it is, is you can't see beyond the immediate 'leet skill ceiling' momentary fight to the bigger picture where "hardcore PvPer options" must include conditions that support the other two thirds of the game. Insanity-Mode Crowfall simply has to include gathering, crafting, sieging, etc - because that's most of the game.


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