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VIKINGNAIL

This is the ruleset that brings ACE the most $$$

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27 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

Actually, the problem is that your ability to miss a point is the very fabric of legend around here. When you can wrap your head around there being more to the game than the combat mechanics, we might actually have a discussion about PvP on our hands...

When you can understand that combat is the most important thing in crowfall then you can start to understand things better.  

Ahh, yes - the "throne war simulator" with it's reliance on player made everything, market dynamics, sociopolitical maneuvering, supply chain management, and many-month long campaign coordination is totally not within the spectrum of game I enjoy. Thank you for taking the time to tell me my preferences. Much appreciated. :)

Well I mean the game has circle strafing and jumping and you seem to rule those out as twitchy gameplay and not your cup of tea, those are indeed not your preferences no?

See, this is the point you valiantly avoid; contrary to your extremely narrow focus on "my dude hits your dude" there are many kinds of PvP and Crowfall contains several varieties... Which is the point you continually miss when folks try to talk to you about this.

I don't think I've ever avoided this at all, as a matter of fact I have a few threads cooking right now suggesting crowfall take steps closer to RTS metagaming that have nothing to necessarily do with actual real time combat.  This is just your bias clouding your perception.  

Your constant many-year quest to make mano-e-mano deathmatching the focus of Crowfall does nothing but illustrate that you don't really get the bigger picture of the game, which is why people mock you in these threads. The sum-total of Crowfall is not, and never has been (at least in everything I've seen - up to and including the investor documents) any sort of solo-artist one-on-one e-sport like you seem to think it should be.

Never tried to make crowfall any such thing, again clouded bias.  The people that mock are general the same ones that are wrong time after time about projecting big things in crowfall.  From combat to quests to whatever else.  But your bias is so thick and inaccurate, go ahead and show me at any point where I've ever tried to make crowfall a one on one esport.  Quite the contrary actually, I've argued against EK pvp that will distract from CWs, I've directly told ACE not to get distracted by the notion of esports and focus on open world PvP.  But cognitive bias has you so confused you've conjured up a completely false narrative.  

This is not to say there cannot be a rule-set where everyone shows up naked and the last person standing is the winner; but this rule-set won't do diddly for the overall game if nothing from that rule-set feeds back into the other systems such as the aforementioned player made everything, market dynamics, sociopolitical maneuvering, supply chain management, and many-month long campaign coordination.

Leaderboard combat for the sake of leaderboard combat simply won't run the rest of the game - and that's the point a lot of people keep trying to impress upon you.

Weird, because a lot of these people actually want leaderboards, and I've actually talked about the psychological impact leaderboards have at conditioning people away from good mmo pvp.  Again, your ignorance on display.  

Again, your personal bias not only blinds you to the reality of what is going on around you, but makes you a bit of a jerk in the process. As I illustrated above (which you will probably valiantly avoid again), my 'natural tastes' are more in-line with the overall design of Crowfall than I think you like to admit, because there is way more to the game than simply bashing each other over the head for internet points.

Crowfall has action combat, circle strafing, jumping, dashing, all things you scoffed at.  I mean the posts are literally right there just a few inches up.

Yes, there can be lots of different rule-sets, but a rule-set cannot be what the game is not. "Competitive" combat can happen, sure, but it will (more than likely) never be the sole focus because the game is designed for factions/guilds interacting with a lot of systems to be successful as a group. "Competitive PvP" will (more than likely) be entire guilds fighting over things, "Leaderboards" will be successes measured in months.

If this doesn't sound like fun for you, you might be in the wrong place.

Oddly, the initial rule-band offering for the kickstarter was "the dregs"; for those who don't know this is low to zero import, no-faction, everyone is naked, FFA Crowfall... About as hardcore as Crowfall gets. If people are so afraid of this, why then did the Kickstarter bring in double what ACE was looking for?

Oddly ACE has gone away from prioritizing dregs, also oddly enough the game also showed a vision of softer bands, right from the beginning.  This is confirmation bias at play, I mean according to some of these threads some people swear up and down they funded the game for passive training, completely unrelated to dregs.  

I don't think anyone is "terrified of giving hardcore PvPers options"... I mean, have you played against any of the people on this forum? I can name ten, right now, who will drive you like a tent peg in straight up combat.

Yea I've played against them, they don't really stand any chance against modern competitive pvpers when release rolls around.  

I think what it is, is you can't see beyond the immediate 'leet skill ceiling' momentary fight to the bigger picture where "hardcore PvPer options" must include conditions that support the other two thirds of the game. Insanity-Mode Crowfall simply has to include gathering, crafting, sieging, etc - because that's most of the game.

You've misrepresented my position quite a bit in this response, but it all seems like an attempt to dodge the reality of the situation.  Either you are tolerant to giving people hardcore rulesets or you aren't.  

This game doesn't succeed as gathering or crafting sim.  It will survive or fail based on the merits and fun of the actual combat.  But you are basically proving my point.  I've asked for hardcore rulesets, I've never asked for CF to be an esport, as a matter of fact I've done the opposite, but the idea of hardcore rulesets is so terrifying that you've irrationally misrepresented my position instead of objectively reading what is being said.  So again, do you have a problem with the game having hardcore rulesets for competitive PvPers?  Is there a problem with them covering a wide spectrum of pvp preferences?

 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

Tsk. This is probably related to the exclusive backer forum and its NDA.

To be fair i dont really like that. I understand you guys supported the game and all that but sometimes i get the feeling that there is too much information being withholded. Couple this with the not so informative updates we get most of the time and it becomes hard to ignore that there exist information but it just isnt shared.

Take VN quote above, it implies multiple situations but i cant even begin to guess what the hell he is talking about. Are we even talking about the same game? How different can the information available be? It is not the first time this happens either.

Again, i understand the preferential treatment for people who put their money in and arent all talk like me but perhaps the gap is too big? The fact that things are only shared when they are ready is probably the reason. You guys might consider sharing some of those ideas after letting them roll in the exclusive forum for a while.

I need to check, but I'm pretty sure there's no NDA on the backer forum. There is a standing 'please don't record on the test server because stuff be broken, yo', but I've never seen an NDA.

Let me go look, and I'll report back. :)

Yeah. Just a note from Tyrant stating the reason for the backer forum is to allow a more direct Q&A is all there is. They even make a video monthly with a lot of the Q&A that goes on in there.

Edited by raeshlavik
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1 minute ago, raeshlavik said:

I need to check, but I'm pretty sure there's no NDA on the backer forum. There is a standing 'please don't record on the test server because stuff be broken, yo', but I've never seen an NDA.

Let me go look, and I'll report back. :)

There is no NDA on the dev partner forum, just a general understanding that it's better for them for people not to leak stuff they share there until they themselves OK it or are ready to reveal it. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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30 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

I don't think anyone is "terrified of giving hardcore PvPers options"... I mean, have you played against any of the people on this forum? I can name ten, right now, who will drive you like a tent peg in straight up combat.

Um........Have you ever sat at the "Table of Champions"?


.

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40 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I've seen plenty of evidence that they are ignoring hardcore players and harsher rulesets.  It's a shame I can't necessarily share all that evidence. 

The irony was that your behavior was like the label you scoff at.  

The problem is it sounds like you are a bit inexperienced with other genres.  You are seeing a lot of hybrid types of games where mmorpg, fps, moba all have games that vastly differ from one another and are often similar to ones you might find in other genres.  Smite for example is action combat, completely different from LoL and in this case very close to Crowfall a game that is considered an MMORPG.  

You have your preferences, but they actually don't seem to match with crowfall, they seem more suited for a game like Eve.  You seem to like things slow, CF is an action combat game.  I mean things you bemoan, like jumping, and circle strafing, and I imagine dashy abilities all exist in CF.  

This isn't really your forum, it's a forum for a game in development that has changed its own identity in many significant ways over the course of development.  Some of those were very easy to project for people like me and not so easy to project for people that tried to define crowfall based on their own personal preferences instead of where the systems would naturally lead to based on what they were trying to throw together.   

This game is built upon flexibility with many different rules to choose from.  There can be rules for softer players and rules for more competitive pvpers, and just because competitive pvpers want a place to play in too has nothing to do with "gosh darn twitchy people" and you definitely aren't entitled to having more of a game to play than they are.  Especially cause your natural tastes seem to conflict with the direction CF is headed combat wise.  

Honestly to me it's been pretty funny seeing people over the years try to prevent CF from having truly hardcore rulesets when it's so easy to implement and there is such a high demand for that type of pvp experience right now.  It's like people are cool with the game giving you options you enjoy, but you seem terrified of giving hardcore pvpers the options they would enjoy? 

But let's keep it related to the thread.  In your mind how exactly would the advice I've given to add more options for a playerbase that already exists through other games be bad for this game?  Where should the line be drawn and who should ACE cater to?

FF is not easy to implement if the powers are not designed from the ground up with the expectation of FF in mind. That's the problem with even talking about it now. They have built the powers around no FF, and if you tried to play a game like that with FF, you would be sorely disappointed.

LoL is another game, very PvP, very competitive, and also ZERO FF. The powers are designed around no FF. 

It's a totally false proposition that a game needs FF to be properly PvP competitive.  A game needs the game modes that the powers and abilities have been built around. If you turn on FF and play in a world with powers that are build around the philosophy and balance of no FF, odds are you would be playing alone very quickly until you also said "this sucks".

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9 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

FF is not easy to implement if the powers are not designed from the ground up with the expectation of FF in mind. That's the problem with even talking about it now. They have built the powers around no FF, and if you tried to play a game like that with FF, you would be sorely disappointed.

LoL is another game, very PvP, very competitive, and also ZERO FF. The powers are designed around no FF. 

It's a totally false proposition that a game needs FF to be properly PvP competitive.  A game needs the game modes that the powers and abilities have been built around. If you turn on FF and play in a world with powers that are build around the philosophy and balance of no FF, odds are you would be playing alone very quickly until you also said "this sucks".

It is very easy to implement, there is this notion that you have to build for FF from the ground up but it is completely untrue.  You can simply flip the switch and the good players will adjust their coordination and positioning to determine what becomes ideal play under that environment. I'll give you an example.  Say melee abilities are designed to be cleavey and have a wide arc.  Bad players in full FF will be hitting friendlies with this arc due to poor coordination and timing.  Good players will be coordinating different weave patterns for when to go in and out, spacing properly based on their knowledge of the arc, etc.  It actually ends up fitting the game better because you get a more controlled and coordinated combat focused on tactics instead of the frenetic spammy combat you might see in something like gw2.  

The game needs FF to raise the skill-ceiling and attract the closest crossovers, those come form not mobas, but from people playing survival and battle royale games right now, games that are commonly utilizing third person action combat, harsh pvp environments, and of course FF.  

The people that can't handle full FF will think it sucks and tap out.  But they'll be opening up the game to people that want a higher skill-ceiling than what CF currently has to offer.

Anyway hopefully ACE will be openminded enough to try full FF near release when there is a larger population and more people are interested because the release is actually near.  Then they'll have their eyes opened.  But last we heard they have a reason they don't want to try it, and to be frank that reason was quite weak.  

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

FF is not easy to implement if the powers are not designed from the ground up with the expectation of FF in mind. That's the problem with even talking about it now. They have built the powers around no FF, and if you tried to play a game like that with FF, you would be sorely disappointed.

LoL is another game, very PvP, very competitive, and also ZERO FF. The powers are designed around no FF. 

It's a totally false proposition that a game needs FF to be properly PvP competitive.  A game needs the game modes that the powers and abilities have been built around. If you turn on FF and play in a world with powers that are build around the philosophy and balance of no FF, odds are you would be playing alone very quickly until you also said "this sucks".

It doesnt need anything true, but the game was advertised as one. What I dont get is the immediate need to suddenly shut down VNs words here. I mean come on its an option he asks for that was advertised when he first backed the game. Ofcourse he wants to express his opinion about disliking that. If you buy into something that shows of as this and that and then you get half... well i know I wouldnt like it. 

Even if it doesnt work with the current powers there could be some alterations made I guess to make sure that the Dregs were to happen.

 

2 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It is very easy to implement, there is this notion that you have to build for FF from the ground up but it is completely untrue.  You can simply flip the switch and the good players will adjust their coordination and positioning to determine what becomes ideal play under that environment.  

The game needs FF to raise the skill-ceiling and attract the closest crossovers, those come form not mobas, but from people playing survival and battle royale games right now, games that are commonly utilizing third person action combat, harsh pvp environments, and of course FF.  

The people that can't handle full FF will think it sucks and tap out.  But they'll be opening up the game to people that want a higher skill-ceiling than what CF currently has to offer.

Exactly nobody needs to join the Dregs.. but they can, if they want to .. seems like that is the main issue that people arent quite on par with you on.

Edited by deiphoboz

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17 minutes ago, raeshlavik said:

I need to check, but I'm pretty sure there's no NDA on the backer forum. There is a standing 'please don't record on the test server because stuff be broken, yo', but I've never seen an NDA.

Let me go look, and I'll report back. :)

Yeah. Just a note from Tyrant stating the reason for the backer forum is to allow a more direct Q&A is all there is. They even make a video monthly with a lot of the Q&A that goes on in there.

I've been asked by Todd to not quote directly from that forum, mostly because they like to state things to us in there with plain language that if public should be taken out of context for a spin ride by the media.

As someone who follows both, I can tell you that we have probably less than 10% more detail on things than those outside.  I also ask and pull out topics that I think are big enough to be of interest to whatever the fight of the day is out here. 

I can't recall a time I was turned down where I didn't agree with the reason given. Either they didn't have the final answer (most of the time),  or they were still working on enough details for it to go public.

 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I've been asked by Todd to not quote directly from that forum, mostly because they like to state things to us in there with plain language that if public should be taken out of context for a spin ride by the media.

As someone who follows both, I can tell you that we have probably less than 10% more detail on things than those outside.  I also ask and pull out topics that I think are big enough to be of interest to whatever the fight of the day is out here. 

I can't recall a time I was turned down where I didn't agree with the reason given. Either they didn't have the final answer (most of the time),  or they were still working on enough details for it to go public.

 

Ahh. Yeah, I can see that.

In general though, of all the developers/publishers I've interacted with over the years, ACE is hands-down the most open with their fans and players. It's pretty amazing really.


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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I've been asked by Todd to not quote directly from that forum, mostly because they like to state things to us in there with plain language that if public should be taken out of context for a spin ride by the media.

As someone who follows both, I can tell you that we have probably less than 10% more detail on things than those outside.  I also ask and pull out topics that I think are big enough to be of interest to whatever the fight of the day is out here. 

I can't recall a time I was turned down where I didn't agree with the reason given. Either they didn't have the final answer (most of the time),  or they were still working on enough details for it to go public.

 

People also already complain that their dev forum Q&As are thin, it would seem even more thin if all those questions and some of the dev responses were leaked prematurely.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 minutes ago, deiphoboz said:

It doesnt need anything true, but the game was advertised as one. What I dont get is the immediate need to suddenly shut down VNs words here. I mean come on its an option he asks for that was advertised when he first backed the game. Ofcourse he wants to express his opinion about disliking that. If you buy into something that shows of as this and that and then you get half... well i know I wouldnt like it. 

Even if it doesnt work with the current powers there could be some alterations made I guess to make sure that the Dregs were to happen.

 

Exactly nobody needs to join the Dregs.. but they can, if they want to .. seems like that is the main issue that people arent quite on par with you on.

It's not immediate. 

He has been on and on and on about it, both here and in dev forums for months. Todd answered him directly on the FF matter ages ago, with pretty much the same reason I just did. It will suck, and people will complain that it sucks, and that ACE should change the way the rest of the game plays to fix the suck that FF will be with powers not designed around that idea. VK still feels the need to bring it up every other minute despite having his answer, and posters unfamiliar with the issue keep getting sucked into the argument vortex.  An argument that is essentially settled.

Usually I keep him on ignore, but today I guess I decided to test my own patience because he had some valid points in the training thread.

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's not immediate. 

He has been on and on and on about it, both here and in dev forums for months. Todd answered him directly on the FF matter ages ago, with pretty much the same reason I just did. It will suck, and people will complain that it sucks, and that ACE should change the way the rest of the game plays to fix the suck that FF will be with powers not designed around that idea. VK still feels the need to bring it up every other minute despite having his answer, and posters unfamiliar with the issue keep getting sucked into the argument vortex.  An argument that is essentially settled.

Usually I keep him on ignore, but today I guess I decided to test my own patience because he had some valid points in the training thread.

You must not have read the answer given about FF.  It was nothing like the reason you gave.  It literally had nothing to do with game mechanics at all and was more socially driven.  Please don't spread misinformation.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

People also already complain that their dev forum Q&As are thin, it would seem even more thin if all those questions and some of the dev responses were leaked prematurely.  

Yea, I put an offer for people to PM with questions they want me to take a stab at asking for them.  Nobody has taken me up on it yet though, so I guess the best we get are the questions us partners can come up with.

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1 minute ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You must not have read the answer given about FF.  It was nothing like the reason you gave.  It literally had nothing to do with game mechanics at all and was more socially driven.  

It was months ago, but that was what I got from it. I even remember thinking to myself "Man VK is going to hate that answer".  I'll go see if I can dig it up to make sure I remember it right. 

 

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15 minutes ago, deiphoboz said:

It doesnt need anything true, but the game was advertised as one. What I dont get is the immediate need to suddenly shut down VNs words here. I mean come on its an option he asks for that was advertised when he first backed the game. Ofcourse he wants to express his opinion about disliking that. If you buy into something that shows of as this and that and then you get half... well i know I wouldnt like it. 

Even if it doesnt work with the current powers there could be some alterations made I guess to make sure that the Dregs were to happen.

You new here? There is this weird rivalry between VN and some (actually a lot) players. It is basically a trademark of CF forums.

Sometimes i think people are being unreasonable and VN is bringing up some reasonable points. At other times you really cant tell if VN is trolling or not since his points are really unreasonable.

I would say this topic is okay and VN is raising acceptable points (except proximity chat screw that). I mean, you might not agree with him but that is what discussion are about.

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's not immediate. 

He has been on and on and on about it, both here and in dev forums for months. Todd answered him directly on the FF matter ages ago, with pretty much the same reason I just did. It will suck, and people will complain that it sucks, and that ACE should change the way the rest of the game plays to fix the suck that FF will be with powers not designed around that idea. VK still feels the need to bring it up every other minute despite having his answer, and posters unfamiliar with the issue keep getting sucked into the argument vortex.  An argument that is essentially settled.

Usually I keep him on ignore, but today I guess I decided to test my own patience because he had some valid points in the training thread.

Right I get it, I just dont see the reason why people hack on the idea, it seems VN really really wants FF to happen. And the game was also advertised as one; "if there is a ruleset out there you(meaning us players) would like to try, we can do it". Thats what I got from one of their first videos when they mentioned all the worlds they would have and different rulesets. I didnt mean to get sucked into VNs vortex :( But he did argument good both here and in the passive training thread

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

It was months ago, but that was what I got from it. I even remember thinking to myself "Man VK is going to hate that answer".  I'll go see if I can dig it up to make sure I remember it right. 

 

Yea you are definitely remembering it wrong, hope you dig it up alright!  

Oddly enough the misinformation you were spreading is nothing new though, if they give bad answers to good suggestions you gotta stick with it when you know you are right.  Dealt with the same stuff early on with their combat.  Despite some of the people just being like "omg they will never go with twitch kiddy combat, we have what we have", then of course we all know how that ended, they completely revamped the combat because the old one sucked really badly.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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