Dwartii

Dealing with gathering loot theft within faction

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20 hours ago, Silverback said:

The guy stealing materials is probably the solo menace without a guild. This eliminates the guild war ability if he has no guild. If someone in my guild did this to their own faction they would be gone. If a guild of these types of players banded together they would quickly be flagged for war by many other guilds. 

my guess is that this will happen at the beginning of the game close to a beach head during the initial scramble of materials.

In the game i used to play for 4 years, with several thousand players on the same server, green pirates were a majority of the players, not a small minority. There were thieves guilds. You could kick them out of one guild, but they wouldn' care because they were numerous enough to make thier own ones with thieves only. In fact in my experience with such a feature green pirates were  dominating the server. They even recruited people who knowingly knew what it was about : faction thefts etc, often arguing that stealing greens is easier than enemies for "technical" reasons. Don't be so sure it will be something rare, i'm pretty sure that if you allow it, it might get an everyday and massive problem. Lots of pvp players organize in dominating not matter what the the base rules are if they are allowed to do so, usually doing it as guilds or guild alliances. Getting your apple etc picked up while gathering is a really minor problem compared to this one from a faction's point of view.

Edited by gegezz

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7 hours ago, gegezz said:

In the game i used to play for 4 years, with several thousand players on the same server, green pirates were a majority of the players, not a small minority. There were thieves guilds. You could kick them out of one guild, but they wouldn' care because they were numerous enough to make thier own ones with thieves only. In fact in my experience with such a feature green pirates were  dominating the server. They even recruited people who knowingly knew what it was about : faction thefts etc, often arguing that stealing greens is easier than enemies for "technical" reasons. Don't be so sure it will be something rare, i'm pretty sure that if you allow it, it might get an everyday and massive problem. Lots of pvp players organize in dominating not matter what the the base rules are if they are allowed to do so, usually doing it as guilds or guild alliances. Getting your apple etc picked up while gathering is a really minor problem compared to this one from a faction's point of view.

In CF the end result could easily be, divide the faction, drop the faction population, lose the world, and export little at the end of the world.

A much different dynamic may emerge when that sort of behavior is also self defeating.

 

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I wonder how relevant it all is...

yes you can steal a green drop from me, it will require you to stand still around me till it drops, and it's only 1 green drop... in other games, drops like that are less common, in crowfall one green drop isn't that rare. If someone did it to me intentionally, I'd stop using potions, stop using my better pick axe for a low quality backup I carry around, gather commons with the occasional green drop, move immediatly myself to pick it up in random loc, and wish you good luck while you stand there bored in shadows. Basically the same thing I'd do if there was a lot of pvp noise in my immediate vincinity. It's more an issue now with the small map and fixed spawn locations and weird overal mentality.

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Honestly Since 5.4 it really hasn't been an issue. In any early game activity things seem like a bigger deal than in later game.  A common drop once leveled up is not a huge deal ... they are well common and plentiful.

In fact free doober looting prompted a fun stealth stealing activity from some lone unsuspecting gatherer from the other faction and a promotes an atmosphere of murder.  

I formally retract my previous request. I was young, naive and near sighted.    

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Archeage allows for same faction pirating or attacking your own for the gain of packs.  Most people hated it.  It destroyed the faction, the pirates loved it as they got first hits in and made off like the bandits they are. 

I really hope this is not the road they go down.  AA was fine for a while but has been through numerous server merges and continues to bleed players.

As for picking up the stuff.  I dislike having to run around and pick the stuff up even in my own EK.  How about it just goes into inventory, at least in the EK's?   

If real factions are going to mean something,  adding in mechanics for a few troublemakers to ruin it for everyone is a dangerous choice to make.  Who is it fun for, does it add something fun for everyone?

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On 1/22/2018 at 12:48 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

I do not want to see ACE even try to manage this.  This is a social problem, not a programming problem.

Now I would be on board with them dropping the entire doober dropping mechanics and just drop them in the inventory of whoever last hit the node, because frankly I think it's unfun and not at all a good mechanic. That would not stop ninja looting of droppen enemies.

But ACE acting as world cop, no thanks.

This is not a social problem if the code is prohibiting negotiation of the issue through "physical means".  The OP pointed out the code is protecting the thieves, which means it's been taken out of the hands of the players to deal with as it is happening.  Do I understand this correctly?

It IS A CODING PROBLEM, if the code is, by virtue of a loophole, being used to perpetrate this kind of thing.  E.g. leveraging flagging protections to get away with it.

ACE:  If you have ANY dynamics like this, tune that up.  The concept here is:

In the matrix of design regarding harvesting and loot drops, there can be NO wide open mouse-hole players can drop into to get away with asset theft under the protection of coding.  In my experience this usually means exploiting prohibited flagging vs versus open looting capability.

Dizzy down has it's roots in the desire to prohibit people from exploiting in/out of combat (do I remember the rational for it correctly?).  In a sense, a similar objective.

This issue ONLY becomes a design issue IMO . . . if it's protected by the code, which would mean same-faction toons can't be attacked.

This is NOT an issue at all so long as the looter can be attacked and dealt with.

 

Edited by Bramble

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4 hours ago, Bramble said:

This is not a social problem if the code is prohibiting negotiation of the issue through "physical means".  The OP pointed out the code is protecting the thieves, which means it's been taken out of the hands of the players to deal with as it is happening.  Do I understand this correctly?

It IS A CODING PROBLEM, if the code is, by virtue of a loophole, being used to perpetrate this kind of thing.  E.g. leveraging flagging protections to get away with it.

ACE:  If you have ANY dynamics like this, tune that up.  The concept here is:

In the matrix of design regarding harvesting and loot drops, there can be NO wide open mouse-hole players can drop into to get away with asset theft under the protection of coding.  In my experience this usually means exploiting prohibited flagging vs versus open looting capability.

Dizzy down has it's roots in the desire to prohibit people from exploiting in/out of combat (do I remember the rational for it correctly?).  In a sense, a similar objective.

This issue ONLY becomes a design issue IMO . . . if it's protected by the code, which would mean same-faction toons can't be attacked.

This is NOT an issue at all so long as the looter can be attacked and dealt with.

 

And there are going to be dozens, if not hundreds of potential loopholes, known and unknown, especially as it relates to faction servers. There is always going to be some loopholes that nefarious players will attempt to use to troll their own faction, even if that requires out and out conning the players into trusting them.

Given that 

A.) The goal of faction servers are supposed to make it absolutely safe within your own faction.

B.) Players will also need to aid each other, and sometimes that will mean looting fallen comrades so they can preserve their durability if required to tow truck, even if the duration of that looting is only while they wait for the crow to return.

If you want the "protection" of a faction server, your simply going to have to live with the idea that your range of options, including options for dealing with in faction trolls, are going to be limited.

In short, there are ALWAYS going to be issues on the faction servers that need to be solved by the players themselves, with whatever means they have available.  If that means posting lists of known thieves, banning certain players from shops and group activities, ostracization, etc, that is what will have to happen.

The other easy way to get around them, is don't play on a server where they are protected.

But frankly, I still think the doober chasing is a mechanic that really should go. It's causing more problems than it's worth, because frankly I think it's worthless as a "fun" part of the game.

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On 2/25/2018 at 8:00 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

[snip] . . .

But frankly, I still think the doober chasing is a mechanic that really should go. It's causing more problems than it's worth, because frankly I think it's worthless as a "fun" part of the game.

Agreed.

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its a part of the game.  You need to look out and go further out to get your resources.   To start, use your EK to craft basic equipment

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Posted (edited)
On 2/25/2018 at 8:00 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

But frankly, I still think the doober chasing is a mechanic that really should go. It's causing more problems than it's worth, because frankly I think it's worthless as a "fun" part of the game.

The doobers are merely a style of getting loot, which is nostalgic to older games (for me it would be games like Ragnarok Online). While I can agree that they could cause stability issues and currently they bounce/slide way more than needed I still think they have a place. 

It depends on the design intent, but I could argue that players fighting over dropped resources is one such intent. It creates more tension because it isn't about hitting the node it is about making sure you collect the resources, when enemies could be watching. Adds critical moments for ambushing. 

In its current state doobers are kinda meh, generally because of the UX.

Edit:

To add on to OPs suggestion. Doobers could have restriction timers based on an itemized list. I label 0s because in my mind those all fit into the same category of when they should be open to others picking them up. However, they could be adjusted to add a slight delay of .5-1s so the original player that generate the doober can pick it up first (in most cases).

  • Enemies 0s
  • Party 0s
  • Guild 0s
  • Faction 2s
Edited by KanashiGD

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Posted (edited)

It seems more common with newer players coming into the game. Sometimes it just takes a moment of educating the new player and then offer them a shiny blue hammer to play with. Happened to me just yesterday when my doobers were poached. I'd much prefer they fix the good doobers from falling into the abyss first. The timer isn't a bad idea though. Right now I just start gatherin' me bits and if I see someone comin' my way I get ready to burrow which is my modus operandi.

Edited by Gaiawyn

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I liked the idea with doobers being exclusive to harvesting team. Flagging is fun (Also necessary sometimes against the troll) but than you need to worry about all 3 factions and not 2 when harvesting. Plenty of guilds flagged in Archeage to keep other guilds from harvesting or joining raids.

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