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Dwartii

Dealing with gathering loot theft within faction

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I do not want to see ACE even try to manage this.  This is a social problem, not a programming problem.

so much this, alot of people play/will play crowfall because of the social aspect, ACE meddling with that will mess it up for lots of folk


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6 minutes ago, elvo said:

so much this, alot of people play/will play crowfall because of the social aspect, ACE meddling with that will mess it up for lots of folk

In the Dregs / FFA campaigns this is totally true.

Not sure the same logic applies to a Faction campaign though. What else are Faction rules but ACE meddling with the social aspect of sandbox PvP? What remains when you get rid of that meddling?


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21 minutes ago, Dwartii said:

I see being labeled as perma hostile a potential in that scenario. I think this mechanic is close to a potential solution but a person could use it as a griefing mechanic also. I see this kind of thing in BDO and guild prema decking on other guilds for months.  

Stealing is way to easy and it's almost impossible to do anything about it.

Then that "guild" will lose the world to the enemy factions, because they have divided the resources and focus of their side, and better be bloody big to support all the necessary interdependent roles, or always be stuck with lower quality gear, and certainly lesser access to resources.

Just imagine having to fight not only enemy faction members, but also your own, every time you go into the field.  Being world KOS is not going to be a fun place to be if your guild is not HUGE, and it will be hard for a guild to get HUGE with the primary objective being to troll your own side.

And that is exactly how it should play out.  The whole idea of this game revolves around social interactions and conquest. That includes inner faction challenges to cooperation.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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32 minutes ago, Dwartii said:

What's stopping me from login marking some random as hostile and logging out and going on vacation for a week. 

Nothing, but what would that even do?

Your not around to be hostile to anyone.  It's not faction level settings, it's personal level settings I am talking about.  YOU are hostile to them, you don't force anyone else to set them as hostile. In the doober stealing incident described above, every member of the harvesting group would need to flag them as hostile or be in the same position they are in now.

The natural effect of pissing off lots of people on your team, is lots of people on your team are hostile to you. Guilds could ask or require members to also flag someone as hostile, (KOS list), but the WORLD would still think of them as the same faction they started as.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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So..I've been giving this a bit of thought, and I think I have a reasonable solution. Even within factions, let inter-guild rivalries and wars persist. That is to say, if your guild and another guild just..custard hate each other, you might still end up on the same side of a faction campaign, but that doesn't mean you're both working together, just that the condition for victory within the campaign is the same for you as it is for them. So if friendly fire was only disabled by default, and not locked as such unless you were in the same guild with someone, your guild in Chaos could murder someone from a different guild in Chaos if they were flagged as hostiles, but when someone from Order showed up, you would both turn on them. Or not. For large-scale engagements, the guild leaders should be able to write up some kind of treaty, maybe as an actual item or a toggle both guild leaders had to activate that enabled a temporary truce.

I'd liken this to Shadowbane's Game of Realms, where guilds could own cities (or not) and have other guilds swear fealty to them (or not) and swear fealty to other guilds (or not), and if you or your guild decided that one particular person was being a hooligan, you had options. You could take it to the leader of your Nation (large guild to which other guilds have pledged fealty) and ask them to deal with it, such as by having the sub-guild in question gkick the person, thereby revoking their protection from you murdering the poorly made socks out of them, or you could deal with it directly through that sub-guild, or you could just leave the nation if you disagreed with how they handled the situation and murderize that guild on your own.

Obviously, having campaign-wide alliances in place that can't be changed for the duration adds yet another layer to this already fairly complicated game system (which I loved), but I don't see it as being insurmountable. Just add an inter-guild Friendly Fire toggle within campaign worlds, attach a delay to it through either use of in-game resources to make a physical treaty or declaration of war, or just add a time delay, and let the players hash it out.

Of course, there's also another option: if there's a guild that you know is full of trolls, wait for them to join the campaign and then...join a different faction. And murder them dead. Not every in-game problem needs to be resolved by the devs, or immediately at all. Take the long road to your revenge - suffer through a few people being dickbaskets for a few weeks, and get your revenge with style. Ruin them financially in-game. Destroy their carefully-orchestrated political alliances with real-life subterfuge. Don't expect ACE to hold your hand - they might give you the tools to resolve this in-engine, but if they don't, you are not devoid of choices.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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There's no easy solution to this.  It's ultimately a problem with not letting players police themselves and using hardcoded themepark rails.  

The only REAL solution to it is to make it so people can't be ninjalooted.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

There's no easy solution to this.  It's ultimately a problem with not letting players police themselves and using hardcoded themepark rails.  

The only REAL solution to it is to make it so people can't be ninjalooted.

Actually, my second solution is extremely easy and is absolutely a "real" solution. Discourage the behavior hard enough and people won't do it. Just because it doesn't require the dev team to lift a finger doesn't make it any less of a fix for the problem.

Edit: for that matter, my first solution also leaves the agency within the hands of the players without putting the game on rails, and both of those suggestions came before this post.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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17 minutes ago, goose said:

Actually, my second solution is extremely easy and is absolutely a "real" solution. Discourage the behavior hard enough and people won't do it. Just because it doesn't require the dev team to lift a finger doesn't make it any less of a fix for the problem.

Edit: for that matter, my first solution also leaves the agency within the hands of the players without putting the game on rails, and both of those suggestions came before this post.

You are attempting to trade one rail for another rail.  

ACE wants a hands off approach to policing social elements of the game.  Yet they also understand that there are certain mechanics that create issues when you have hardcoded friendlies that can grief others without repercussions.

The real solution to this on servers where ninjalooting is not desired is to remove ninjalooting.

Unless you somehow think you can discourage the desire for a griefer to grief without actually changing the nature of hardcoded friendly rulesets.  (You cant)


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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23 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This.  Also on social servers each faction should handle thieves internally.  

If I recall correctly, this whole throne war thing means that towns will have leaders, and leaders will be able to set rules, so if you find some thieves or players otherwise trolling, say spies or smugglers for example,  I do believe that the town leader will be able to mark those players as KOS to the thrall guards, even if they are in the same faction.

I would like to see a way for people to de-faction a player and basically cut them off from all factions in the world. 

 

Flagging and Pirate/villain debuff.  Worked well in other games.  You could flag to deal with pesky problems, but it goes both way.  Maybe only the town owners guild can flag and act as police?  

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7 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

You are attempting to trade one rail for another rail.  

ACE wants a hands off approach to policing social elements of the game.  Yet they also understand that there are certain mechanics that create issues when you have hardcoded friendlies that can grief others without repercussions.

The real solution to this on servers where ninjalooting is not desired is to remove ninjalooting.

Unless you somehow think you can discourage the desire for a griefer to grief without actually changing the nature of hardcoded friendly rulesets.  (You cant)

I actually explained how you absolutely CAN, and by making the game LESS restrictive instead of more. Other people also suggested removing doobers entirely, which is yet ANOTHER "real" solution that I guess also "doesn't exist."

Oh, and of course, there's the approach they actually decided to take, where they make doobers unlootable by people not in the group that generated them, which is..yet another simple solution that 100% fixes the problem without introducing rails.

Amazing how in a few hours, four separate simple solutions to a problem with no simple solutions were proposed and/or executed...

Edit: also, considering that removing doobers was YOUR SUGGESTION, I am amazed that you feel that there is "no simple solution" to this problem with myriad simple solutions. But you'll notice that my suggestions were basically "ninjalooted? KICK THEM IN THE hooligan. Upset that you can't? DEAL WITH IT." or "ninjalooted? KICK THEM IN THE hooligan. Upset that you can't? DECLARE WAR."

Your replies both ignored their existence, continuing on as if those suggestions didn't exist and making a claim that was kind of ridiculous since it came right after them... Reminds me why I usually don't check your posts. x.x

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Working as intended.

Go find a spot outside the initial spawn...

I would say half the problem here is Melee characters keep ending up slowly constantly zooming in and being forced to hit that resource node in the first person view.  Half the time they don't know an apple just dropped behind them, making it immensely fun for the troll to scoop their loot.

I would say allowing an option for ranged/melee  character to lock the zoom level on their characters might at least help people see some troll hanging around behind them on 'their' node.

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On 1/22/2018 at 12:54 PM, Jah said:

I actually like doobers and I'd actually like to see them used for looting of players as well. Explosions of doobers on the battlefield would be hilarious.

I can just see all the people forgetting there’s a siege because somebody forgot to bank his stuff before running into battle. Doobers for everyone!!! :lol:

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This is a fantastic topic and one I have been prey to a few times. In most cases, asking the player to not do it again and/or asking them to help out solves the problem. In that rare case, and so far it is not a common thing that occurs in the Balance faction, that you get a ninja looter the rest of the faction will often band together and the looter no longer has as much chance as everyone is aware of them being a looter eventually reducing the issue on its own.

The sandbox mechanic and the external loot drops are great fun as I am not a PvP primary player I love to see my rewards on screen. When I have had a player take something I engage with them. If they say oops no harm no foul. If they continue to do so without reply then I look to the entire Balance faction for ideas. If they continue to do so in a disruptive way there are ways to discourage it in normal gameplay. 

Offer to pay them for picking up the loot.

Invite them to a group and train them with monsters so they die and then loot them (this has been done and it does work well even if they are not in the group)

Go outside the Beachhead. Form a group and have them compete with the little sucker.

Chat in Global about it and lead an entire Campaign map hunt of the little perp. Heck set a bounty that can be looted from a bounty toon that they just gank if the perp is dealt with.

 

All I'm saying is there are options outside of having the developers restrict things.

 

Keep it sparky!

Robyn

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In another game i know there is a bloodlust mode which enables pvp within faction.

The huge drawback you  may not have thought about is faction can dissolve into guild wars instead of faction wars and green pirates can attack you exactly to get this loot.

It's even faster for thieves because now they just need to wait you to be full inventory and kill you instead of being around to gather stuff one by one.

So as you can imagine faction pvp rather makes it easier for thieves, and there is a high chance that factions won't have any meaning at all after that : enemy guilds would ally to kill together ally guilds or players, etc. I've seen that and it breaks the pvp concept at its root.

 

So another system should be thought about, maybe a more complex one. But definitely not a bloodlust mode.

 

Cheers

Edited by gegezz

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The guy stealing materials is probably the solo menace without a guild. This eliminates the guild war ability if he has no guild. If someone in my guild did this to their own faction they would be gone. If a guild of these types of players banded together they would quickly be flagged for war by many other guilds. 

my guess is that this will happen at the beginning of the game close to a beach head during the initial scramble of materials.


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A vast majority of responses in this thread are attempting to treat faction servers like FFA servers and have players manage each other.

As per Todd and Blair, multiple times when asked about it, that isn't the intent of Faction servers. This is why guild can not own structures in faction servers, players do not have the ability to choose where walls and siege go, and in general players are not given the ability to do anything that can conceivably be used to grief their own faction.

Those interactions are meant for campaign rulesets that are not yet in the testing environment. The intent of faction servers is that it is functionally impossible to grief your own faction.

The faction is an NPC referee specifically intended to keep you from negatively impacting your own faction members so that intra-faction rivalries are functionally impossible on these servers. There will not be a red flag, or hostile tag, or other mechanism to put the responsibility of punishing crimes against one's own faction members on the player in faction servers because the design goal of faction servers is to make commiting said crimes impossible in the first place.

Doober theft in faction play falls under the heading "griefing your own faction" and as such is something that is being literally turned off. The same way you're not allowed to troll your own faction with bad siege placements, bad city placements, KOS listing guilding in your faction you don't like to city guards, and any other interactions that are present and commonplace on the nonfaction rulesets. You guild can not functionally own or set rules for anything in faction servers. Every single player has the exact same limitations as a guild member of the faction with no administrative rights.

Doober theft can and should be left alone in its proper context, as should all other avenues for custard over friendlies. However Faction servers are not that context and exist specifically to remove player ability to do such things so that a bunch of random players that may not like each other much placed in the same faction only have the option of cooperating or not showing up to help each other.

Faction servers exist specifically to prevent people that are green to you from doing anything hostile to you. Player policing mechanisms will not exist on these servers because the ability to commit crimes is switched off at a server rule level. Those who wish to engage in such activities are meant to do so in the context of GvG and FFA servers where such behavior is unmoderated and encouraged as a normal part of play.


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