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Xpade

WTB real crowd control class

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Hoping frost weaver can fill that role!  And when I say crowd control, I mean no player hit limit of 5, and able to have that 1 ability persist for 20-60 seconds.  Those that remember DAoC know I’m talking about.   I’m not talking about rotating 2-3 second abilities.  I’m talking about 9second unbreakable aoe stuns, 20-60 second breakable smezz(stun like) and 20-60 second aoe roots.  Then it has no long duration cool down.  We’re talking spammable and can really lay down some CROWD CONTROL.   

Now before you all freak out.  There’s equal return.  Once stunned/mezz/rooted and you break it purge it or it’s broken, you are immune for the duration that the original spell was cast.  You get hit with a 40 second root, now your immune to root for 40 seconds.  Same for breakable/unbreakble stun/mezz/sleeps/disables etc.  

where the money is made!  Now you add structure and balance into individual and group builds.  You want to be a dps glass cannon and skip purge and anti-cc, go for it.  But that CC class is the great equalizer.  You want to be the tank, and hamper your offense but gain an almost insane amount of anti-cc and that 40 second sleep now looks like a stutter step, good on you while you counter and stun/block for your aoe cc’d team mates.  

I’d like to see games revolve more around good intentioned players vice twitchy finger  pro-gamers that turn off your average for enjoyment players. 

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I remember fondly my dwarf healer.  Aoe mezzes that froze a full party of eight while they were attacked and eliminated one by one.  Roaming, open world pvp.  Eight man group versus eight man group.  Best MMO fun ever.  

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4 minutes ago, Asim said:

I remember fondly my dwarf healer.  Aoe mezzes that froze a full party of eight while they were attacked and eliminated one by one.  Roaming, open world pvp.  Eight man group versus eight man group.  Best MMO fun ever.  

daoc's midgard pacification healer was a beast [instant AoE stun hah!], but lets not forget alb sorcerors or say hib bards either! :)


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26 minutes ago, Xpade said:

I’d like to see games revolve more around good intentioned players vice twitchy finger  pro-gamers that turn off your average for enjoyment players. 

I don't understand what this has to do with CC?

CF is geared towards "average" players in how it is very easy to aim and hit everything and everyone. Good luck with CC sticking ever.

People complain about 1 sec CC, forget about 20-40-60 sec.

DAOC is my favorite PVP MMO but what worked in that system wouldn't translate well to CF. At least not the majority. Would enjoy seeing more positionals beyond backstab...

IMO, CF needs less CC as it is handed out like candy to every class a long with disciplines.

If it was rare, longer duration might work, but even then, combat is too hectic with "average" players likely not avoiding breaking CC.

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Those values sound horrible.

9 secs unbreakable AOE stuns? AOE? Unbreakable?

1 minute mezz?

20-30 secs AOE stuns roots? AOE again? u serious?

All of that in a low cooldown?

Can a class be more easier and OP than this?

I imagine breaking from CC was pretty easy in DAOC? To the point where all these values becomes void? Otherwise it wouldnt be considered good.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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stuns were only up to 8-12 ish, not 20-30 ;p slower paced fighting

well you can't really compare direct to direct game wise.

there were some 'cc break' powers on long [30min] cooldowns that any one could get [one class even had a group purge]

if CC was applied via magic instead of a physical effect then a user's relevant magical resistance by gear and magic buff effects could easily reduce the duration by a huge amount e.g. 25% to 60%

any damage would break a root or mezz

a number of classes had a cleanse they could cast on an ally that would remove a mezz

after a target has been affected by a CC they would be entirely immune to it for a whole minute

Edited by Tinnis

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20 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

imagine breaking from CC was pretty easy in DAOC? To the point where all these values becomes void? Otherwise it wouldnt be considered good.

Actually, no.  Stuns did not break, period.  Mezzes broke on damage, nothing else.  There were also roots that broke on damage.  And yes, it really disgruntled people off and cc was toned down many times over the life of the game.

Originally a dwarf healer could keep you incapacitated almost indefinitely.  Stun, mez, stun again...you get the picture.

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32 minutes ago, APE said:

I don't understand what this has to do with CC?

CF is geared towards "average" players in how it is very easy to aim and hit everything and everyone. Good luck with CC sticking ever.

People complain about 1 sec CC, forget about 20-40-60 sec.

DAOC is my favorite PVP MMO but what worked in that system wouldn't translate well to CF. At least not the majority. Would enjoy seeing more positionals beyond backstab...

IMO, CF needs less CC as it is handed out like candy to every class a long with disciplines.

If it was rare, longer duration might work, but even then, combat is too hectic with "average" players likely not avoiding breaking CC.

PvP in DAoC really came down to who got off their 10s+ mez on the opposition first.

Hard CCs just need a lower duration. Anything above 2 seconds for a knock down or stun is too long. Soft CCs like roots and sleeps that break on damage are okay if they're longer.

On top of that you can go the route that ESO went and have an active CC breaker on a low cool down and/or which consumes stamina or some other resource.

Edited by Helix

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8 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

stuns were only up to 8-12 ish, not 20-30 ;p slower paced fighting

well you can't really compare direct to direct game wise.

there were some 'cc break' powers on long [30min] cooldowns that any one could get [one class even had a group purge]

if CC was applied via magic instead of a physical effect then a user's relevant magical resistance by gear and magic buff effects could easily reduce the duration by a huge amount e.g. 25% to 60%

any damage would break a root or mezz

a number of classes had a cleanse they could cast on an ally that would remove a mezz

after a target has been affected by a CC they would be entirely immune to it for a whole minute

If I remember correctly, there were few if any cc counters early on.  All this stuff Tinnis mentions were added as time passed.  Also, you couldn't purge/cleanse if you were stunned/mezzed.

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3 minutes ago, Helix said:

PvP in DAoC really came down to who got off their 10s+ mez on the opposition first

Yes, and there were third party add ons out there which let you know when a group was approaching so you were ready.  Against the rules to use of course, lol.  My guild never used them, but many did.  You knew when someone was cheating because the group was spread out and ready when they entered clipping range.  Normally you travelled under /follow, in a line.  

Edited by Asim

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43 minutes ago, Asim said:

If I remember correctly, there were few if any cc counters early on.  All this stuff Tinnis mentions were added as time passed.  Also, you couldn't purge/cleanse if you were stunned/mezzed.

uthgard level patch had mez removal [i only played up to shortly after shrouded isles. left before ToA mess etc]

[uthgard classic private server 1.6 something]

Edited by Tinnis

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Long Hard CC with giant area effects needs to go away... it's been a major issue for a while... we keep bringing it up but nothing has been done about it... yet. No one wants to be hard CC'd to death... it's literally one of the worst mechanics in PvP games.

2 or 3 second Hard CC should be the cap


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27 minutes ago, Destrin said:

Long Hard CC with giant area effects needs to go away... it's been a major issue for a while... we keep bringing it up but nothing has been done about it... yet. No one wants to be hard CC'd to death... it's literally one of the worst mechanics in PvP games.

2 or 3 second Hard CC should be the cap

Yes, the proliferation of CC is a big problem. 

Ranged AOE CC is the #1 reason that fights in this game are largely decided by numbers. It lowers the skill cap so much that it is hard to overcome any numbers advantage. 

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A class like that will cost you roughly 20 million dollars.

Because you will have to create your own mmorpg to ever see something that ridiculously OP again.

Even then, you would have to play it all alone, because no one will accept 40s to 1 minute crowd control ever again.

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1. Developers design combat with "long duration CC until dead" mechanics

2. Players complain for 6+ months 

3. Developers finally change it because it's not fun (on the receiving end) or competitive

 

Why we have to do this every time? :blink:


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Sounds a bit like you like the idea of PvE more than PvP, because long term loss of agency for other players is just frustrating and bad game design.  

As much as you like the feeling of locking several players down for over five seconds, they hate it.  Keep long term CC for PvE games where you can kite and control to your heart's content against enemies with no emotion or ability to simply quit the game in frustration.

When you do it to a real person, it's only remotely fun for one of you.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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19 hours ago, APE said:

IMO, CF needs less CC as it is handed out like candy to every class a long with disciplines.

If it was rare, longer duration might work, but even then, combat is too hectic with "average" players likely not avoiding breaking CC.

Ape! Hiii!  Agree with the meat and potatoes... for the masses.  I want to see less CC, less CC is good right?  Don’t get hung up on the 60 second CC.. read the second half of the mechanic... think... everybody gets free immunity because, and access to purges that purge all negative affects, not just 1 type or just 1 negative affect.  And once you purge it, your immune to it for 60 seconds.

i guess where I want this to go and totally agree with you.  less CC across the board, and 1-2 classes that specialize in CC.  I don’t like how every class has 3-4 different CC abilities that last 1-3 seconds and can be rotated or spammed and offer no immunity.  This is why you have people crying about 1 second CC.  If everybody gets it, can spam it, and there no immunity, it becomes a giant finger roll fest of only executing CC abilities vice trying to actually use your tactics and such.

 I see this being fixed in 2 ways:  1 is limit cc to cc classes with much longer durations.  Your damage dealers don’t get CC.  Period.  Nope nope and more nopes!  Cc is for cc classes and supports. You don’t get to be a healer, a glass cannon... and a cc chaining hoss master (sorry rangers running standard bearer, bard, field medic, spamming suppress/root/knockdowns etc)  2 :   Add very long cc immunity timers.  this should resolve the QQ about 1 second CC.  And grouping things like stun, nockdown, suppress into the same immune table.  People complain about 1 second CC because everybody gets it.  You can rotated and turn 1 second into 9+ seconds, almost indefinitely, and there is little to no CC immunity.  

Where and why everybody loved DAoC CC is because it waassss loooooong, but long came with a price.  For those that remember the tool tip of a red/purple mezz, it was 60 seconds or longer.  I know... people are like... WTF, 60 second stun!???!!!!! But they forget that once you take damage or receive a 2nd CC it breaks the first AND now you are immune to it for the equal original duration.  And heaven forbid you are a tank... who just by. Ring the class was nearly immune to non physical CC (mage stun vs shield slams) Apply that 60 second mezz, it breaks, now immune for 60 seconds.

For the twitch finger part: No amount of twitch finger CC rotations going to help you rotate CC when you have a 60 second immunity is where I was going with that.  Some people are good at rotating CC, while your average player will be open with an ability and left click away.  This becomes the team tactics vs individual argument.

Edited by Xpade

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