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Xpade

WTB real crowd control class

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12 hours ago, McTan said:

This type of class would only become close-to-reasonable in CF, if all other classes had CC effects removed from their damage powers.

That’s the idea.  Bring back classes..... tanks are tanks, supports are supports.  Games have gone the way of hybrids vice actualky having a real role.  It’s like a soup kitchen these days... everybody gets a bowl filled with mildly bland soup that has a little of everything in it, but no real substance or anything that you can distinguish apart.

Look at the current game race/class choices.  Remove CC from your ranged classes and you will find a whole lot more supports being played.  What you have now is:  Why would you ever play anything other than Xxxx ( you know what they are) because you have speed, ranged damage that is arguably the highest dps in the game, the best CC, a good melee table with more CC, kite skills, and can self heal or lifesteal in NUMEROUS ways.   

Why would these classes ever not be played or allowed their team to be hindered by grouping a class that can’t do everything.  If you think this point is invalid.... you probably play one of the 2-3 classes that have a chance right now.  

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I couldn't imagine a design for FW without some type of frosty-stasis CC... But not too much!

It has long been my belief that CC heavy classes tend to be difficult to balance. This would especially be an issue in CF with the vast number of options to hybradize roles through disciplines.

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26 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

I couldn't imagine a design for FW without some type of frosty-stasis CC... But not too much!

It has long been my belief that CC heavy classes tend to be difficult to balance. This would especially be an issue in CF with the vast number of options to hybradize roles through disciplines.

Personally I would prefer a frosty skate rink effect, where traction was reduced dramatically.

(With full FF in effect for this one.)

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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On 1/24/2018 at 12:53 PM, Xpade said:

I’m not talking about rotating 2-3 second abilities.  I’m talking about 9second unbreakable aoe stuns, 20-60 second breakable smezz(stun like) and 20-60 second aoe roots.

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On 1/24/2018 at 11:53 AM, Xpade said:

I’m not talking about rotating 2-3 second abilities.  I’m talking about 9second unbreakable aoe stuns, 20-60 second breakable smezz(stun like) and 20-60 second aoe roots.  Then it has no long duration cool down.  We’re talking spammable and can really lay down some CROWD CONTROL.

This is a strong disagree and firm no from me.

Every single time I've seen a MMO that I've played that has allowed this in PvP has got nerfed into the ground where it belongs.

CC, particularly CC that you can't break, absolutely kills the fun of the pvp experience.

We don't need more CC in the game. We need more creative abilities of everything else that we can tool towards whatever vessel build we want to make. Even slows in Crowfall are devastating and that's a very common soft CC effect in MMOs.

The idea sounds great on paper until you're the one on the receiving end of this kind of stuff when it's implemented.


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That’s the thing, current games have way more cc than what I’m suggesting... but nobody gets past the first line and get red in the eyes cuz “ it’s too OP” and fail to realize, super OP CC is offset with super OP anti-CC.  Oh.... and if you get CC, you get about 0 damage output.  Imagine any class that currently has CC having their damage crippled to essentially nothing.  I mean who ever thought giving dps glass cannon like damage and CC that can last an entire fight.... on the same class.

As far as people not getting past the firmest line and seeing unbreakable CC.  It’s allllll breakable when you counter it.  Tanks would spec/equip determination and purge which made them almost immune to CC.  That 60 second sleep/stun was now about 2-3 seconds .... oh and wait... now that tank is immune to cc for quite a while cuz unlike current MMO, you don’t get to spam short duration CC and not trigger immunities.  When it’s all said and done, current/recent games have more and longer CC cuz it’s so short they don’t consider the need to program in 30-60 second immunities.  And that’s how you end up with 1 class that can rotate stun/trip/suppress and kill you before it all wears off.  Remember CC class can’t do damage of any kind really.  

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Daoc had it right but it had the system for it to make it work. Casters couldnt run and cast and could easily be intetupted so they couldnt cast at all. Classes each had something special to bring to the group but also lacked something that another class had. When a group got together you had jobs to do which suited the group playstyle. What was also not mentioned that a 40 sec mezz (sleep) could be broken by any damage, cured by certain classes or you buy a purge realm ability (need realm skill points gained by gaining ranks which u get by killing players). When a CC on you fades or broken you gain immunity from that type allowing you to be safe for pretty much the rest of the fight, so respecing enemies who were CC'd was a must and you needed alot of group coordination.

I completly agree what Xpade is saying, in crowfall atm every class has access to everything, CC, high damage, movement speed etc etc. Because every class can pretty much do anything there is no group building and decisions to be made, you can just do your thing and with pretty much no coordination at all and why bother even having a mixed class group at all when you could just have 6 rangers which pretty much can do everything.

I do like how casual friendly crowfall is and im sure changes will be made down the line i just hope they take something away from each class to allow more unique group setups.

 

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You are using a bad example that is making people disagree with you about a point that they might actually agree with in principle. You're essentially saying that you want more characters designed to be played by careful skill use and planning, as opposed to mechanics-heavy twitch gameplay.

A control-oriented character isn't a bad way to do that, but DAOC style mezzing is a sledgehammer application of a control character, an unsubtle mess of design. You're looking at a very early iteration of MMO pvp, basically "virtual world" stuff, where there was no specific audience in mind, and no true vision for what combat was supposed to look like. DAOC Mezzers are a cautionary tale, not a thing to emulate. They show what happens when you put too much hard CC in a game. It becomes the tail that wags the dog, a substitute for every other tactic.

Your point about counter-cc and resistances and stuff as a balancing component isn't realistic. Just look at the lengths WoW has had to go to in order to salvage something resembling competitive pvp out of a pve game stuffed to the gills with cc. We're talking about elaborate internal cooldowns on single cc resistances, elaborate cc chains, giant band-aid cd's that make most of the actual combat irrelevant. It barely works even on a 3v3 scale. They threw a billion dollars at it, and it's still the butt of every MMO pvp joke.

That said, there are other ways to do this. There are examples of control classes that have a more subtle application of control that doesn't crush the rest of the game in the process. Guild Wars 1 mesmers play an elaborate game of situational debuffs, control, enchantments, debuff stripping, cover enchants to counter enemy stripping, etc. Vanilla WoW Warlocks had an interesting active-control mechanic where you could chain a sequence of breakable and unbreakable CC on a single target through continuous casting that created little windows where they could be damaged, but gave the target constant opportunities to counterplay or break out. Aion sorcerers had powerful breakable AoE CC, but it required extensive knowledge of enemy magic resistance to make any use out of it. Healers could group strip it instantly and were practically immune to it, so it was a high risk opener or very high risk surprise, nothing else.

So to TLDR it, if you want a control character, do not ask for AoE Mezzes and stuns. That's just asking for a win button.

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2 hours ago, Xpade said:

That’s the thing, current games have way more cc than what I’m suggesting... but nobody gets past the first line and get red in the eyes cuz “ it’s too OP” and fail to realize, super OP CC is offset with super OP anti-CC.  Oh.... and if you get CC, you get about 0 damage output.  Imagine any class that currently has CC having their damage crippled to essentially nothing.  I mean who ever thought giving dps glass cannon like damage and CC that can last an entire fight.... on the same class.

As far as people not getting past the firmest line and seeing unbreakable CC.  It’s allllll breakable when you counter it.  Tanks would spec/equip determination and purge which made them almost immune to CC.  That 60 second sleep/stun was now about 2-3 seconds .... oh and wait... now that tank is immune to cc for quite a while cuz unlike current MMO, you don’t get to spam short duration CC and not trigger immunities.  When it’s all said and done, current/recent games have more and longer CC cuz it’s so short they don’t consider the need to program in 30-60 second immunities.  And that’s how you end up with 1 class that can rotate stun/trip/suppress and kill you before it all wears off.  Remember CC class can’t do damage of any kind really.  

But why even go to the lengths of making super OP CC and super OP CC breakers. Just balance the CC we have now against retaliate timers and stam regen. You're much more than able to make a full CC class as is...with multiple different classes. 

Crowfall does have CC DR and it kicks in quite quickly. After the 3rd CC of the same type you get like a 15s CC immune buff. We just couldn't see the blue effect on our character in 5.3. 

In terms of the class design issues you brought up, I somewhat agree. The issue isn't classes having CC AND damage, it's classes having CC/damage/mobility and sometimes even good survivability. A class should only have 2 strengths and that's where we get these OP classes like old myrm, WE ranger, old fessor, etc. You can't just have a class be good at ONE thing and doggy doodoo at everything else because that restricts build options waaaay to much.

 

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@Jjohnsin , can’t really disagree.  Only tweak I’d like to see is once I’ve been cc’d one time and my anti cc goes into effect I’m not rotated to another type of cc on the same class.  Stun, knockdown, suppress, root, ..... did I miss any?  All that Hitting you in rotation is pretty lame.  I’d prefer my 60 second cc that I can purge and now be immune for 60 seconds.  I don’t know what came before 5.3 so not super knowledgeable, but a follow up question..... when your immunity triggers, is it only for that 1 type of cc and now that same enemy still has 3 other CC to choose from?  Maybe the meta just needs to shift to be more anti -CC and resists armor become more accessible. 

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3 hours ago, Xpade said:

Maybe the meta just needs to shift to be more anti -CC and resists armor become more accessible. 

Hopefully. Although I also hope it isn't just get the "best" gear with all stats. If someone wants to be heavy CC resists, they shouldn't also have a ton of health, armor, resources, etc. Should be some strategic choice involved. Or else the options are aim for the best or be sub par. Rather it be a shallow curve.

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I personally hope they never put in CC like there was in DAOC. It's not fun to be stunned or mezzed for an extended period of time. I hope the CC in this game is of the type that allows for a counter other than, dodge this or lose every time. I'd rather have my opponents fight back than stand there and die because they don't have CC in their group.

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The most fun solution for everyone is balancing the strength of a form of CC is to make the duration not very long at all. A 5 second stun is pretty garbage thing to deal with as the person getting stunned by it. 1.5 second stun not so much as it's more of an interrupt than anything else. Same goes for long duration silences, slows, roots, blinds, or even any other type of debuff.

The longer the CC the easier it is to chain CC someone with different forms of CC. Even if someone gets stun immunity, there is then slow, then sleep, then silence, and root and blind. A result of having long CC durations just means one person is a punching bag while the other person gets all the fun. In team and group based pvp, like Crowfall is being designed around and for, it's just going to put a lot more emphasis on having a focused kill target for everyone to drop ASAP. That's an incredibly linear and boring way to pvp.

Stats should have the same approach too on a sliding scale. More offense means less defense just like more defense means less offense.


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In my opinion the CC debate cannot be separated from a conversation about mobility and ease of hit. In fact, I’d argue that the CC we see is actually a symptom of the game being too easy to fully mitigate damage by dodging. This is very salient on melee characters. We almost always need something to be CCd in order to land any significant amount of damage.

For me, this is a design problem that is compounded through CC.

Everybody has dodges so everyone needs CC anti-dodge. Otherwise everyone runs in circles not dying and not really getting hit. This was evident in early Hunger Dome and persists to now. 

For me, a major tune down on both mobility and CC (make specific classes like Champion mobile and specific classes like frostweaver CCers).

I could honestly do without the RMB dodges, but I’m likely in a minority there. I’d love to see them tuned to 5meters with long cool down.

Combat still feels flighty and unsatisfying, especially as melee. Ease of hit, mobility, and CC are all culpable. Most of the time I am not being hit (except for by ranged) and I am also not hitting anyone.

Then, I will get CCd or land CC, and die or kill. It feels...unsatisfying.

 

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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^ a.k.a. when they shifted to full mobility on most ranged powers and from projectiles/physics to largely raycasts etc (melee as well, but that made somewhat more sense)

Edited by Tinnis

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<<~ Former EQ PVP Enchanter.

 

CC classes become the most powerful PvP classes. In EQ I could not only chain mez nuke you but I could charm you and make you my pet......


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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