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Tinnis

Should all accounts start with X days in the time bank?

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59 minutes ago, narsille said:

For me, at least, the reason to have banked time at the offset is specialisation

^this

it gets people on board about specialising their characters/account at creation, without having to wait weeks to get that rolling and actually get them 'invested' in what the skill trees mean rather than "i'll click these three things that i have zero choice in and maybe i'll remember to reclick them many times over the next few days....or i wont bother"

[e.g. they'll actively start planning / looking at the skill trees in depth rather than only clicking on the initial nodes with no choice as they go from the offset]

Edited by Tinnis

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Why not let us choose any path from Day 1?

I don't understand the reasoning for requiring weeks/months to access end goals if the power curve is super shallow and most of passive training is stat gains. There isn't any real linear progression in the majority of areas.

I can hop in a be XYZ relatively quickly, yet can't train those specifically for a good while.

Rather have the option on Day 1 to train as an Elf or Racial Basics. Leave it up to me to make good use of (or waste) my time training them. If I want to broaden my horizons or simply increase my Elf power, I'll go back over time to the more generalize options. I make the choices that matter to me.

Training Racial Basics first provides no real learning or benefit. It's a means to an end and what I believe some see as "pointless waiting," even if it benefits the end all the same. 

Maybe if we had to learn how to be a "Mage" prior to "Arcane" or a Cleric, it might make sense, but as it is, we are just getting a few stats here and there tied into time. There is no real progression in-game that goes with passive training for most areas.

This would work easily with everything except Crafting and maybe Exploration. At least when it comes to Recipes and more linear unlocks.

Even then, if someone wants to hop in Day 1 and start specializing in grave digging or runemaking, so be it.

Everyone has the same options and it's the choices they make that matter.

Do you go straight for the imagined end goal or start with the basics and build your way up?

Might not work perfect with the current layout/numbers, but IMO, would avoid some initial buy in issues people will have and emphasize the importance of choice and consequence.

Along with needing a very good tutorial/introduction to the game explaining all the areas. Could even tie this in to training making the first 5% or whatever, be active participating in the tutorial.

Edited by APE

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The way I see it is that...why even bother giving new players head-starts? I don't think many people will come into the game and be so upset that they need to train basic skills before specializing that they leave. I mean, we all have to train them and I think they should too. Like was stated earlier, imo the first couple weeks of a game should be spent doing THE BASICS. I don't log into WoW and expect to be like 700 blacksmithing right away, I don't even expect to be level 2 blacksmithing right away. I expect to spend time leveling it up...and you could argue that the basic v specialization argument is in WoW too with things like gnome engineer/goblin engineer versus regular engineering. 

Seems like just extra headaches to me holding new players hands. I think it's overblown how new players will react to having to start from scratch, and there should/will be plenty of other things them to be focused on. Imo they should be spending time in game actually playing before deciding a specialization. If anything speed their training by 2x or something, seems like this is the is being made more complicated than it needs to be. My .02. 

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literally just look at this posted right now

https://community.crowfall.com/topic/19564-locking-down-crafting-without-passive-trade-systems-may-be-a-mistake/?do=findComment&comment=377742

27 minutes ago, TheRealStupid said:

Having just gained access to the TEST server (beta 1 group here), I was extremely disappointed that as an aspiring crafter, there is literally NOTHING that I can do to craft until 7-1/2 days of Real Time training have passed. I want to craft!  But even after grinding out 100 ethereal dust to place a crafting station... which I did by the way! I literally played for 12 hours straight, basically sitting at a bunch of low level nodes that I could chip away at with the Basic tools - the only tools I could make because Runecrafting is also time-gated! - until I had enough dust to build a crafting station... and then I discovered that even after all that effort, I still can't even START crafting because all of the recipes are time-gated to a skill node that is a minimum of 7.5 days investment.

Admittedly, there are a lot of short-loop game elements that are not in place yet, but my point is that new crafters want to craft and the current design paradigm is that "No, you are not allow to do that until you make a 7.5 day investment in the game." So, now that I know this, I've completely stopped playing/testing. I just log in twice a day to manage my skill training and wait until the Node that I 'need' is unlocked so that I can actually look at the part of the game that I want to play.

I agree that the artificially boosted crafting in 5.3 is not helpful. Crafting should require some kind of dedication to doing it right. It should be: pop a potion and suddenly you're an uber-crafter. But there needs to be SOMETHING for low-level, unskilled, aspiring crafters to do.

 

 

Edited by Tinnis

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

First--how does EVE handle this?  I don't know but perhaps there is something to learn there.  Also, if you live online, you are most certainly not going to like passive progression.  You hit "the wall" now (without a skill surge) or later (with it) either way.   Finally, I have no doubt that ACE will have to fine tune passive crafting, and it may be sped up, slowed down, added to, rerouted, etc. in order to improve it.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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3 hours ago, Tinnis said:

I mean...oh no, you need to wait a little while before crafting? You more than likely won't even have premium mats to craft stuff and take advantage of any skills you do have if you just bought the game anyways. Maybe it'll feel better for people when there is an actual game loop and stuff to do that is meaningful in game to fill that basic training time. 

I don't think it's too much to ask for people to just chill and play the game for a while before specializing. But hey I really don't care either way and whatever ACE ends up doing won't impact my thought much. 

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4 hours ago, Tinnis said:
4 hours ago, TheRealStupid said:

Having just gained access to the TEST server (beta 1 group here), I was extremely disappointed that as an aspiring crafter, there is literally NOTHING that I can do to craft until 7-1/2 days of Real Time training have passed. I want to craft!  But even after grinding out 100 ethereal dust to place a crafting station... which I did by the way! I literally played for 12 hours straight, basically sitting at a bunch of low level nodes that I could chip away at with the Basic tools - the only tools I could make because Runecrafting is also time-gated! - until I had enough dust to build a crafting station... and then I discovered that even after all that effort, I still can't even START crafting because all of the recipes are time-gated to a skill node that is a minimum of 7.5 days investment.

Admittedly, there are a lot of short-loop game elements that are not in place yet, but my point is that new crafters want to craft and the current design paradigm is that "No, you are not allow to do that until you make a 7.5 day investment in the game." So, now that I know this, I've completely stopped playing/testing. I just log in twice a day to manage my skill training and wait until the Node that I 'need' is unlocked so that I can actually look at the part of the game that I want to play.

I agree that the artificially boosted crafting in 5.3 is not helpful. Crafting should require some kind of dedication to doing it right. It should NOT be: pop a potion and suddenly you're an uber-crafter. But there needs to be SOMETHING for low-level, unskilled, aspiring crafters to do.

 

 

This poor fellows experience would have totally been solved with a way to craft training tomes for the basics skills.  3 days per tome, say 3 wood per tome, and in a couple of hours he would have been crafting his first items instead of it taking 12 to find out he has to twiddle his thumbs for a week before actually playing the game he wanted to play.

Would some people go nuts and fill all the basics trees this way? yea I suppose.  

Does that break anything at all for the end game or leave people with a solid end point if they finished the basic trees that way. 

Nope.

Really I think that is the most elegant solution.  

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

 

I mean...oh no, you need to wait a little while before crafting? You more than likely won't even have premium mats to craft stuff and take advantage of any skills you do have if you just bought the game anyways. Maybe it'll feel better for people when there is an actual game loop and stuff to do that is meaningful in game to fill that basic training time. 

I don't think it's too much to ask for people to just chill and play the game for a while before specializing. But hey I really don't care either way and whatever ACE ends up doing won't impact my thought much. 

If that's sarcasm, that is up there as one of the daftest things I have ever heard. He ONLY wants to be a crafter. That is his "play the game". Maybe that's all he wants to do, and what you call "play the game for a while" doesn't interest him in the slightest, so really the only option he has to play the game is to wait.

I bet your parents made you open your Christmas presents wrapping, showed you what you were going to get, then made you wait until April before you could actually play with it.

 

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6 hours ago, APE said:

Why not let us choose any path from Day 1?

I don't understand the reasoning for requiring weeks/months to access end goals if the power curve is super shallow and most of passive training is stat gains. There isn't any real linear progression in the majority of areas.

I can hop in a be XYZ relatively quickly, yet can't train those specifically for a good while.

Rather have the option on Day 1 to train as an Elf or Racial Basics. Leave it up to me to make good use of (or waste) my time training them. If I want to broaden my horizons or simply increase my Elf power, I'll go back over time to the more generalize options. I make the choices that matter to me.

Training Racial Basics first provides no real learning or benefit. It's a means to an end and what I believe some see as "pointless waiting," even if it benefits the end all the same. 

Maybe if we had to learn how to be a "Mage" prior to "Arcane" or a Cleric, it might make sense, but as it is, we are just getting a few stats here and there tied into time. There is no real progression in-game that goes with passive training for most areas.

This would work easily with everything except Crafting and maybe Exploration. At least when it comes to Recipes and more linear unlocks.

Even then, if someone wants to hop in Day 1 and start specializing in grave digging or runemaking, so be it.

Everyone has the same options and it's the choices they make that matter.

Do you go straight for the imagined end goal or start with the basics and build your way up?

Might not work perfect with the current layout/numbers, but IMO, would avoid some initial buy in issues people will have and emphasize the importance of choice and consequence.

Along with needing a very good tutorial/introduction to the game explaining all the areas. Could even tie this in to training making the first 5% or whatever, be active participating in the tutorial.

From an egoistical standpoint I would LOVE that, but from a game design standpoint where you can not ever respec or reroll a new crow (short of rebuying the game at least), it is a very bad idea, as plenty of ppl would manage to custard up and do the wrong thing. Starting broad is a way for developers specially in such a locked in system once you picked) to protect players from themselves so they don't even have a chance to custard up their character before they have a chance to learn what they should be doing

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12 hours ago, Frykka said:

Certainly my skills after 3 months on this schedule feel like I am progressing far faster than previous tests in some areas and the effect of vessel leveling on the base attributes and child stats give players plenty to do to progress actively while this short period of limited skills exists as a single occurrence in the entire life of an account

This may be true, but it's the start of the life of the account for most folks.

You, having seen what you can do three months in, are willing to say "It's just a temporary condition." Meanwhile Joe the Gamer buys the product for $50, tries to play and find that he can't do anything, looks at the skill tree and discovers that he wont be able to do anything meaningful for X days/weeks/months. Guess what Joe does then? He returns the game for a refund and makes a zillion posts on reddit about what a horrible game Crowfall is. The mid- and end-game simply don't matter to a new player, and in today's game market there are more than enough games for people to completely abandon anything that isn't immediately compelling.

The New Player Experience has to be fun, or the game is DOA. Now, we all know the game isn't done yet and maybe there are plans to add a lot of "fun" in that first week while waiting to get through the first (mandatory) tree. Maybe the tutorial (which we have ZERO knowledge about) will put the new player in a position where they've already completed the no-choice trees. Personally, I'm hopeful that something will be done at some point. But the current (unfinished) iteration of pre-alpha simply isn't there yet.

I remain cautiously hopeful.

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39 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

From an egoistical standpoint I would LOVE that, but from a game design standpoint where you can not ever respec or reroll a new crow (short of rebuying the game at least), it is a very bad idea, as plenty of ppl would manage to custard up and do the wrong thing. Starting broad is a way for developers specially in such a locked in system once you picked) to protect players from themselves so they don't even have a chance to custard up their character before they have a chance to learn what they should be doing

Originally ACE said they wanted us to be able to screw up and that choices would come with consequences, good or bad. As you point out, the current model decreases or removes such horrible elements...

While yes some need hand holding, many do not and removing choices and the challenge of actually thinking, seems rather sad.

Heck, offer some sort of respec with a timer and or diminishing returns so not let people go crazy with it. Much like Tomes in catch up.

Putting barriers in place just to potentially prevent some from "screwing up," is not a good design IMO. Even when "screwing up" consists of simply swapping to something else. Might lose a bit of time, but really, what will it be +5 Dex, +5% crafting speed?

If someone manages to train for months before realizing they "screwed up," it's much more likely they just want to do something else aka just start training it then.

Although again, if the introduction to the game and systems are clear, people shouldn't be overly confused as to what it means to train Armor vs Weapons or Runemaking vs Blacksmithing or Human or Elf.

If people really are that confused and believe they "screwed up" choosing one over another, oh well, maybe this game requires a little too much mental gymnastics for them...

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5 hours ago, Regulus said:

First--how does EVE handle this?  I don't know but perhaps there is something to learn there. 

IMO, EVE's system makes sense and is intuitive while having more going on that CF's simple system.

You have more pre-req free options from Day 1 that branch out in linear and pre-req paths that work.

However, training and how ships works is rather different than CF's Vessels and passive training. Clearly they looked to EVE for some ideas, but not enough.

What works well in EVE has no comparison to CF as it is very different and not in a good way.

In EVE they have more tiered progress. Like you train Skill A I, Skill A II, Skill A III, Skill A IV, in order. Skill B I might require Skill A III as a pre-req so you get it.

Not like CF with Skill A I then Skill B I then Skill A I again in one path, along with Skill A I found in multiple different trees. CF's system is full of redundant copy/paste skill training.

Then again I'm not an EVE player so I might be way off, but this is how I understand the basics.

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my tl;dr is that the basic trees* should be essentially 'instant' for a new player to initial spec a path through, with the real meat of progression and choices coming from the advanced sub trees.

think of the basic trees as an extension of character creation, and an instant way to give players the feeling that they are building a character in the way they want and won't just be like everyone else for the first month plodding through offline/disinterested waiting for get the 'the real skills'

currently there are just next to no choices for a starting player for mulitple days [and weeks before anything really meaningful IMO]

*at least in their current forms

Edited by Tinnis

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p.s. or just delete the initial single node at the start of the basic trees with no choice and let people pick from the initial 3-5+ lines at the next level instead

Edited by Tinnis

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7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If that's sarcasm, that is up there as one of the daftest things I have ever heard. He ONLY wants to be a crafter. That is his "play the game". 

 say he/she starts playing the game right and he sees he can specialize right away in crafting. Hey great, that's awesome for him. Oh wait, he/she has no resources to even craft with besides basic stuff. Oh wait, he/she hasn't played the game at all to be able to trade for anything. Oh wait, he's a new player more than likely without a guild to give him/her any low level premium resources. Oh wait, there is literally nothing he can do with that instantly specialized path he/she took. But maybe if he played for a week or two and built up some stockpile of mats...when he does specialize he/she can actually do something since he was actually able to get some mats. I mean, even only crafters are gonna have to get their hands dirty in CWs, so this notion that crafting is the thing he enjoys so that's what 100% of their time will be consumed by from the very start of his journey is daft.

But let's just say that this crafter logs in, instantly starts training blacksmithing, gets a bunch of slag and stuff from somewhere are starts crafting. Oh wait, more trained crafters are doing the same thing but with factories blowing him out of the market anyways. 

Like, skipping basic trees does nothing for you unless you have physical mats to use with it. And I guarantee you that new players will not. So either way they are training "pointless" skills for a while either way until they get materials or a group. 

 

Edited by Jjohnsin

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7 hours ago, TheRealStupid said:

This may be true, but it's the start of the life of the account for most folks.

You, having seen what you can do three months in, are willing to say "It's just a temporary condition." Meanwhile Joe the Gamer buys the product for $50, tries to play and find that he can't do anything, looks at the skill tree and discovers that he wont be able to do anything meaningful for X days/weeks/months. Guess what Joe does then? He returns the game for a refund and makes a zillion posts on reddit about what a horrible game Crowfall is. The mid- and end-game simply don't matter to a new player, and in today's game market there are more than enough games for people to completely abandon anything that isn't immediately compelling.

The New Player Experience has to be fun, or the game is DOA. Now, we all know the game isn't done yet and maybe there are plans to add a lot of "fun" in that first week while waiting to get through the first (mandatory) tree. Maybe the tutorial (which we have ZERO knowledge about) will put the new player in a position where they've already completed the no-choice trees. Personally, I'm hopeful that something will be done at some point. But the current (unfinished) iteration of pre-alpha simply isn't there yet.

I remain cautiously hopeful.

I have seen what I can do 3 months in and 6 months in and 1 year in...   but implying that I don't understand is foolish because I have done day one, week one, etc a few times now and in none of them did I find myself feeling like I was waiting on skills...  I formulate a plan and execute it.   I harvest at the slow starting rate and get my gear so I can scout, fight, do those fun things in game.   I stockpile materials so that as my skills progress I can make better gear and then I harvest more, and then I go roam with my friends and get better at fighting, get better at harvesting, get better at crafting (yes, I have multiple accounts).  

Things are changing though as they must and I have to roll with it, suggest improvements, trust that our dev team has the skills and the feedback to make the game I want.   A lot of these players truly are coming from an environment fundamentally different from my gaming experience.    Instant gratification has changed not just the gaming industry but the gamers themselves.  I do not disagree that the new player experience needs to be fun but to say it must embody the instant gratification of some modern gameplay ignores the reason those of us that want hard work to be our gratification can to back this particular game.

Edited by Frykka

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43 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

p.s. or just delete the initial single node at the start of the basic trees with no choice and let people pick from the initial 3-5+ lines at the next level instead

This could be done.

I also dont like how some nodes are hidden behind some seemingly unrelated nodes. You should never be forced to literally waste your time training something just because it is a requirement for what you want. Requirements should make sense.

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41 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I have seen what I can do 3 months in and 6 months in and 1 year in...

...(yes, I have multiple accounts)

we have been doing that with cheat potions, unlocked recipes, no crafting station requirements and easy disciplines though

[and generally everyone has had mostly equal access to all the above as well at the same times]

zzz multi accounts ;p

Edited by Tinnis

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This is a very interesting idea. 

The biggest drawback I see is that the initial 30 days or so spent while going through basic training should be when you figure out WHAT you want to do. The combat basics tree is pretty universal and would apply to any race/class selection.

The problem I see with the current harvesting and crafting basic trees is that they force you to make a decision from day 1 and that goes against what this basic training was supposed to be about. 

I do agree that this would solve VIP being less useful at the start as well as the awkward early game campaigns though. 

 


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