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Tinnis

Should all accounts start with X days in the time bank?

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3 minutes ago, blazzen said:

The problem I see with the current harvesting and crafting basic trees is that they force you to make a decision from day 1 and that goes against what this basic training was supposed to be about.

yea, that is a fair enough observation which people have previously touched upon by making it tied to self making an in game item [or hell, the early levels of the sacrifice xp system]

not too sure about that myself <shrug>

Edited by Tinnis

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3 hours ago, Jjohnsin said:

 say he/she starts playing the game right and he sees he can specialize right away in crafting. Hey great, that's awesome for him. Oh wait, he/she has no resources to even craft with besides basic stuff. Oh wait, he/she hasn't played the game at all to be able to trade for anything. Oh wait, he's a new player more than likely without a guild to give him/her any low level premium resources. Oh wait, there is literally nothing he can do with that instantly specialized path he/she took. But maybe if he played for a week or two and built up some stockpile of mats...when he does specialize he/she can actually do something since he was actually able to get some mats. I mean, even only crafters are gonna have to get their hands dirty in CWs, so this notion that crafting is the thing he enjoys so that's what 100% of their time will be consumed by from the very start of his journey is daft.

But let's just say that this crafter logs in, instantly starts training blacksmithing, gets a bunch of slag and stuff from somewhere are starts crafting. Oh wait, more trained crafters are doing the same thing but with factories blowing him out of the market anyways. 

Like, skipping basic trees does nothing for you unless you have physical mats to use with it. And I guarantee you that new players will not. So either way they are training "pointless" skills for a while either way until they get materials or a group. 

 

I think you're conflating the idea of "I want to craft" with the pipe-dream of "I want to be able to craft the best stuff right away." As a new player, I -expect- to be locked out from crafting the biggest and best stuff. I -know- that people who have more advanced skills are going to make whatever I'm doing seem pointless. But, here's the thing, as a new player (in the current state of the 5.4 build) I can't even make pointless, crappy (slag) gear!

Playing on 5.3, I was pleased as punch when I made my first slag weapon. Sure it's lower quality than someone who has been playing for several weeks/months and it probably has an overall in-game value of next-to-nothing. So what? I made it! It took me several days to figure out the game systems to gather the 'right' materials, to find the right places to gather them, and then to assemble them... all while dreading the notorious "You get nothing, good day sir!" And at the end of that effort, I had created a near-worthless slag weapon and I was overjoyed by that!

Want to know what I did after that? I farmed boars for a few hours to collect hide and made a pair of leather gloves for myself. Again, low-level, and low-quality, but I MADE IT!!  Only a fool would expect to be instantly competitive within moment after they log in and create a character. But time-gating crafting for over a full week after logging in for the first time is simply beyond the pale. Crafters want to craft for the sake of crafting. And on 5.4, I just can't (at least not yet).

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On 1/28/2018 at 6:56 AM, Kraahk said:

But the feedbacks i've seen shows over and over again that people feel like they couldn't do anything without having to "pointlessly wait" a long time, before they can "do anything". Though that's not true in particular, the feeling exists and will cause disappointment about the game during the first days.

 

Frankly, 7 - 10 days isn't anything. This feeling of not being able to do anything is a function of missing game elements. 

1) No volume/variety of mobs, adventure zones, reasons to be out.

2) No real campaign with win mechanics driving behavior. Right now, all sides get the same reward, the same access to exports (which they wipe every so often). 

3) No guild banks or structure able to support mutually assisted crafting. The volume of materials with all the different color varieties is really bad. You can't fit it all on your bank or inventory. 

4) No trade system/auction house or vendors. No common currency. This is a primary way "solo" players can get what they need but it is not in game. The trade mechanics are difficult and with fewer people in game in test and the times people are in game being a little inconsistent, this is really a "must have" to help individuals feel better supported.

Once these are in game, it will feel a lot better for players. They will still have to pick their skill lines. They will not be able to be great at everything, so there will always be a feeling of not being able to do something, but if you give them something they can do to get what they want, then they will be able to feel good about making that progress. I do think giving people some time reward to make some early decision about what they want to do is a good thing based on learning the game even if it is a quest completion or tutorial. They can then choose if they want to be better in one area over another straight away. 

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12 hours ago, Gummiel said:

From an egoistical standpoint I would LOVE that, but from a game design standpoint where you can not ever respec or reroll a new crow (short of rebuying the game at least), it is a very bad idea, as plenty of ppl would manage to custard up and do the wrong thing. Starting broad is a way for developers specially in such a locked in system once you picked) to protect players from themselves so they don't even have a chance to custard up their character before they have a chance to learn what they should be doing

There is literally zero way to "do the wrong thing".  All skills are additive.  There is no skill the precludes you from training a different skill later.

The only thing you can do is cost yourself some time down the road to back track and train something later that you decided you actually wanted.  There is no reason on earth to "reroll" your crow, other than to want to get back several months rather than wait out a new profession.

If you're anything but a day one VIP, odds are you will have plenty of training ceiling to work with and just upgrade with tomes.

If you are a day one VIP, well frankly a huge percentage of those are doing the experiments now to see what they want, and before you commit just ask around and someone will tell you what is what.  

I'm sure as we get near the end of the changes, a wiki will pop up that has all the information a person could ask for pre-training start.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, TheRealStupid said:

I think you're conflating the idea of "I want to craft" with the pipe-dream of "I want to be able to craft the best stuff right away." As a new player, I -expect- to be locked out from crafting the biggest and best stuff. I -know- that people who have more advanced skills are going to make whatever I'm doing seem pointless. But, here's the thing, as a new player (in the current state of the 5.4 build) I can't even make pointless, crappy (slag) gear!

Playing on 5.3, I was pleased as punch when I made my first slag weapon. Sure it's lower quality than someone who has been playing for several weeks/months and it probably has an overall in-game value of next-to-nothing. So what? I made it! It took me several days to figure out the game systems to gather the 'right' materials, to find the right places to gather them, and then to assemble them... all while dreading the notorious "You get nothing, good day sir!" And at the end of that effort, I had created a near-worthless slag weapon and I was overjoyed by that!

Want to know what I did after that? I farmed boars for a few hours to collect hide and made a pair of leather gloves for myself. Again, low-level, and low-quality, but I MADE IT!!  Only a fool would expect to be instantly competitive within moment after they log in and create a character. But time-gating crafting for over a full week after logging in for the first time is simply beyond the pale. Crafters want to craft for the sake of crafting. And on 5.4, I just can't (at least not yet).

Slag advanced weapons were an anomaly of testing and pretty much gone for good...  by the time a crafter has open his craft unlocked the recipes, they will probably already have access to premium materials from the gatherers.   The replacement for that weapon for one week after launch in the very first CW will be the intermediate weapon made with slag and affected by the crafters first few days of training in basic crafting.   The war of basics has begun!   It lasts a whole week in the lifespan of our game...

One thing I am reading here is the pros for this suggestion are using an example player who seems not to wish to play 2/3 of the game and is then saying that he has to wait rather than play...   seems proper actually.   He is waiting while the rest of us are exploring, capping forts, fighting mobs and each other, adventuring...   why do you think the women of Katagarrd had so much time to sit around while the Vikings were off doing stuff?   This game encourages even the most timid crafter, in fact in this build it forces them to get out into the world and play the damn game.   Be Lagertha, not Aslaug if you don't want to sit in the home and wait.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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28 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Slag advanced weapons were an anomaly of testing and pretty much gone for good...  by the time a crafter has open his craft unlocked the recipes, they will probably already have access to premium materials from the gatherers.   The replacement for that weapon for one week after launch in the very first CW will be the intermediate weapon made with slag and affected by the crafters first few days of training in basic crafting.   The war of basics has begun!   It lasts a whole week in the lifespan of our game...

One thing I am reading here is the pros for this suggestion are using an example player who seems not to wish to play 2/3 of the game and is then saying that he has to wait rather than play...   seems proper actually.   He is waiting while the rest of us are exploring, capping forts, fighting mobs and each other, adventuring...   why do you think the women of Katagarrd had so much time to sit around while the Vikings were off doing stuff?   This game encourages even the most timid crafter, in fact in this build it forces them to get out into the world and play the damn game.   Be Lagertha, not Aslaug if you don't want to sit in the home and wait.

What exactly is better about the game if it has a 7 day, "wait to do what you want" period?

I keep seeing people defending it, like it's paying your dues to even start into your chosen playstyle, but really that's just an excuse to defend a negative status quo as far as I can see, rather than a positive for the game.

"Wait it out", "it's not a big deal", etc, is a really crappy way to address an early game that does the opposite of what games are supposed to do, relieve boredom and give positive entertainment.

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

"Wait it out", "it's not a big deal", etc, is a really crappy way to address an early game that does the opposite of what games are supposed to do, relieve boredom and give positive entertainment.

As long as the game is fun from the start it won't really matter if there are some specific things you can't do right away.

The passive training system is not the part that is supposed to entertain you in the early game.


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10 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

What exactly is better about the game if it has a 7 day, "wait to do what you want" period?

I keep seeing people defending it, like it's paying your dues to even start into your chosen playstyle, but really that's just an excuse to defend a negative status quo as far as I can see, rather than a positive for the game.

"Wait it out", "it's not a big deal", etc, is a really crappy way to address an early game that does the opposite of what games are supposed to do, relieve boredom and give positive entertainment.

The reason is pretty plain...   ask then why do we even have basic weapons and armor if you will bypass them on day 1?  you may then ask why we have progression at all?  I know this is a Not A = Not B argument but it does illustrate that the reason is progression...  sure I think the initial training could have cooler nodes in it that don't just give me more apples to lose to enemies in battle and make them feel they got a prize.   

If the crafter only player now going to ask why are you making me train combat and gathering skills, I don't want to play 2/3 of this game, why gate further crafting skill nodes behind a bunch of combat and gathering skills in the race tree, why give me class training at all, nothing in class training makes my crafting better?

Maybe because you are not playing 2/3 of the game.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

The passive training system is not the part that is supposed to entertain you in the early game.

It's not even really entertaining mid to late game either. 

The entertainment is supposed to be actually playing the game.  The early game does need some work on the "entertaining" portion.. especially for those people coming in solo with out friends and without a guild.  Something needs to hook them early into wanting to find friends to play with. What that hook should be? I have no idea.

Edited by Destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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9 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The reason is pretty plain...   ask then why do we even have basic weapons and armor if you will bypass them on day 1?  you may then ask why we have progression at all?  

I don't remember if it was Blair or Todd, but I'm 99% sure one of them flat-out said we'd be starting with free banked time because forcing people to start passive training from 0 would hinder the day 1 experience. As to "why even have basic weapons and armor if you will bypass them on day 1," well...will you? How?

Basic weapons and armor will always be useful at the starts of campaigns, because they are cheap and easy to manufacture, unlike any advanced equipment. Even if 30 days of banked time on day 1 was enough to get you reliably crafted advanced gear (and you, Frykka, KNOW this is not the case), you would still need to gather materials from harvesters, since you would have invested all of your points into crafting.

All this does is kickstart the economy. What exactly is the negative, here?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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19 minutes ago, goose said:

I don't remember if it was Blair or Todd, but I'm 99% sure one of them flat-out said we'd be starting with free banked time because forcing people to start passive training from 0 would hinder the day 1 experience. As to "why even have basic weapons and armor if you will bypass them on day 1," well...will you? How?

Basic weapons and armor will always be useful at the starts of campaigns, because they are cheap and easy to manufacture, unlike any advanced equipment. Even if 30 days of banked time on day 1 was enough to get you reliably crafted advanced gear (and you, Frykka, KNOW this is not the case), you would still need to gather materials from harvesters, since you would have invested all of your points into crafting.

All this does is kickstart the economy. What exactly is the negative, here?

I am referring to X days banked...   as opposed to X hours.   If you get a 7 day universal tome at launch then how long until the first advanced weapon hits the field?   If you get a 1 day tome, what is the timing.   Since the worst possible flawed attempt is still double the damage of an intermediate weapon this is a key turning point in the initial encounters between guilds and factions.   We also have the unknown layout of the recipe unlock skill nodes...   one node says you can now use the bench and make a component but you can still cannot craft a final assembly.   This are surely a part of the base progression design decisions, the implementation of those decisions and the tweeking of the pieces until things mesh.   In our current test the recipes open wide up with cracking the craft...   is this going to be another period of waiting for recipe skills?   again?    when does it stop?     oh  you have a huge stack of blue materials now but you can only experiment with 6 pips...   waiting again.     The waiting should not be a reason ever to boost...    kickstarting the economy, that has merit.

Edited by Frykka

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16 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I am referring to X days banked...   as opposed to X hours.   If you get a 7 day universal tome at launch then how long until the first advanced weapon hits the field?   If you get a 1 day tome, what is the timing.   Since the worst possible flawed attempt is still double the damage of an intermediate weapon this is a key turning point in the initial encounters between guilds and factions.   We also have the unknown layout of the recipe unlock skill nodes...   one node says you can now use the bench and make a component but you can still cannot craft a final assembly.   This are surely a part of the base progression design decisions, the implementation of those decisions and the tweeking of the pieces until things mesh.   In our current test the recipes open wide up with cracking the craft...   is this going to be another period of waiting for recipe skills?   again?    when does it stop?     oh  you have a huge stack of blue materials now but you can only experiment with 6 pips...   waiting again.     The waiting should not be a reason ever to boost...    kickstarting the economy, that has merit.

Honestly, we (or at least, I) don't really have enough information to make an informed decision about whether or not there are explicit drawbacks to several weeks of free training on launch day. Maybe in the fancy forums you're privy to some information I'm not, but given only what has been made public about the game, crafting will be the least important facet of this argument. Crafters can craft MORE RELIABLY with training, and experimentation unlocks for them - but anyone can craft advanced gear on day 1 with no training at all.

The bottleneck will be harvesting, and no amount of training will replace the fact that time and work go into that. On day 1, basic gear will be everybody's bread and butter unless the game's core functionality changes dramatically between now and launch day. This will likely continue to be the case with every new campaign after that, due to limited import rules making the good poorly made socks still relatively scarce, and therefore not likely to be worth wasting on anything less important than taking over a POI or defending your Tree of Life.

In short, it really, really doesn't matter when the first advanced weapon hits the field - what matters is that everyone has the same opportunity to be there when it happens. Gating the existence of advanced equipment behind the game having been out for a month is stupid - why not give people the ABILITY to make it and let them actually engage with the game loop from the start?

Edit: this has been my 666th post, so I guess I am never allowed to post again... :(

Re-edit: Also, what about actual parts of the game loop that would be entirely inaccessible until a week into the game, like say, ALL DISCIPLINES?

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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2 minutes ago, goose said:

Crafters can craft MORE RELIABLY with training, and experimentation unlocks for them - but anyone can craft advanced gear on day 1 with no training at all.

Not true anymore after Patch 5.3.

In 5.4 you need specific training to access the crafting stations for each crafting type. And then there are the Recipe nodes in the skill trees, which are not yet implemented, but presumably will be in a future patch.


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Just now, Jah said:

Not true anymore after Patch 5.3.

In 5.4 you need specific training to access the crafting stations for each crafting type. And then there are the Recipe nodes in the skill trees, which are not yet implemented, but presumably will be in a future patch.

That's fair enough, but the fact is that that makes it MORE valid to add a chunk of universal banked time on day 1, not less.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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52 minutes ago, goose said:

I don't remember if it was Blair or Todd, but I'm 99% sure one of them flat-out said we'd be starting with free banked time because forcing people to start passive training from 0 would hinder the day 1 experience. As to "why even have basic weapons and armor if you will bypass them on day 1," well...will you? How?

Basic weapons and armor will always be useful at the starts of campaigns, because they are cheap and easy to manufacture, unlike any advanced equipment. Even if 30 days of banked time on day 1 was enough to get you reliably crafted advanced gear (and you, Frykka, KNOW this is not the case), you would still need to gather materials from harvesters, since you would have invested all of your points into crafting.

All this does is kickstart the economy. What exactly is the negative, here?

Here. He did say it.  Not even sure why I am arguing with Frykka about it, it's already decided and a moot point. We just don't have the chosen accelerator in play yet.

 

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Here. He did say it.  Not even sure why I am arguing with Frykka about it, it's already decided and a moot point. We just don't have the chosen accelerator in play yet.

 

Thanks, yeah, this one. I usually remember those little snippets of chatter from the videos when they come up, but I am also usually too lazy to actually hunt them back down. :P


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Just now, goose said:

Thanks, yeah, this one. I usually remember those little snippets of chatter from the videos when they come up, but I am also usually too lazy to actually hunt them back down. :P

I keep a library of "I told you so" book marks for the interesting and sometimes maddening bits.

I finally get to delete the Markee Dragon "You lose everything" crafting video link that had my blood boiling on how bad that user experience was.

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