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PopeUrban

Locking down crafting without passive trade systems may be a mistake.

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Tell me what I'm missing here. The crafting system is based around a model in which players can effectively only specialize in one school, and specialization is primarily a function of the time-based skill tree. Most schools are designed to require components from one or more other schools. The design intent here is pretty obvious, you want us to have to rely on other players specializing in things we do not in order to get all of our required gear, consumables, etc.

Prior to 5.4 we've got access to all of the recipies so that even if we lack any remarkable skill we can at least provide components for ourselves as well as test potions to artifically inflate out crafting skills so we can ape the effective crafting stats of at least a medium skilled crafter for any of these items.

Turning off the experimental crafting potions ASAP makes sense to me. Even with a few wonky components the majority of the output quality of most crafted goods comes from its main discipline Players should be incentivized to specialize in crafting if they want more than very low level crafted goods, and removing the pots accomplishes that goal of preventing untrained crafters from self sourcing anything other than low grade stuff.

However, locking out the recipies seems like it may seriously impede testing as the current trading systems are limited to direct trade only with players in one's own faction. Given a usual concurrent player base on the test server from 50-100 people with the occasional spike, you're generally looking at 10-50 potential trading partners at any given time.

This means that you have to find a player that:

Is online

has the desire to work on commission (because there itsn't enough bank space to just keep random components on hand for trade as none of them stack)

Is trustworthy enough to trade your materials to (because at current pop even people with guild support don't have a full spectrum of trained players in testing)

is actually one of the players that has decided to train a crafting discipline

is actually one of the players that has had enough time under the current skill system to actually unlock their recipies.

This is already pretty much a non-starter for most people, but we've played around it by using the artificially unlocked recipe list to just make ourselves minimally skilled crafters in every disc. Some of us have guild support and as such a basic ability to reliably acquire better outside components.

If we lose the ability to make even poor quality components without the simultaneous addition of a way to reliably source them from other people, many types of items become nearly impossible to craft at all.

The intended final model is that we should be able to source components from passive trade systems via vendor thralls, and that the interdependence of the crafting system should make it a given that people are not only incentivized but thrilled to find these player run storefronts selling even very poor quality components. It removes the necessity of trust and concurrency (and potentially alliance if its anything like shadowbane's player run shop systems) and requires only that a player exists in the game that is able to craft something and has the inclination to sell it. That's generally a given in a system designed to create a stable market of buyers that need even the poor quality components a beginning crafter can make.

It seems to me that given the current population on testing servers, we do not have sufficient concurrent player counts of trained crafters to reliably source components outside of our own training from the narrow selection of players that fit the above listed criteria of training, ability, trust profile, and inclination. Without vendor thralls or some other interim system that removes the need to find such players online like the current artificial unlocking of all recipies I am unsure of how a single account player is intended to source components outside of their trained specialization in the current testing environment and population.

What am I missing here? If the current "unlock all" is to help us compensate for a lack of avaliability of outside trade, and its removed without a replacement system to pick up the slack how are the people without an existing stable of trained crafting accounts or trained guildmates supposed to interact meaningfully with the crafting system in 5.4?


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Could introduce one main store on each faction base. People can come and "sell" their junk or whatever they craft for XP and others players can come a "buy" those stuff paying with theirs XP.

It would help with gear and equipment but it could even be a source of raw mats.

Normally we should pay using dust but no cares about that so XP can be a good replacement for now.

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recent dev stream comments about upcoming "vendors" [e.g. if this could actually form an approved 'contract' of X for Y goods exchange system and regardless of online status etc] might help

Edited by Tinnis

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1 minute ago, Tinnis said:

recent dev stream comments about upcoming "vendors" [e.g. if this could actually form an approved 'contract' of X for Y goods exchange system and regardless of online status etc] might help

isnt this what they have planned with thralls as well? the way i understood is that you can assign a thrall(NPC) a task (eg: sell these iron bars for that amount of currency)


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Also isnt there systems being put in place that allow thralls to craft for you and such? So maybe it wont be so bad, at least not for those who skill into it. Also this patch may encourage guilds to try out systems that allow each member to become useless/ready for the moment.

Personally I quite eager to see how thralls interact with crafting.

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Thralls are the endgame, yeah, but my overall point is turning off the artifically unlocked crafting recipies BEFORE vendor thralls or a substitute for their function may make it nearly impossible to effectively test crafting for a very large number of current testers.


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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

Thralls are the endgame, yeah, but my overall point is turning off the artifically unlocked crafting recipies BEFORE vendor thralls or a substitute for their function may make it nearly impossible to effectively test crafting for a very large number of current testers.

I think we'll get there. I could be wrong, but I don't see them wiping skills again before soft launch, and I have to imagine that's still many months away, probably closer to the end of the year. That should give us the time to skill up sufficiently so we can test everything. If they do plan to wipe skills, then hopefully they will give us some way to accelerate training so we can properly test everything.

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I think a serious solution is to reduce training times by a factor of 10 or 100. This will let testers get fully unlocked skill trees in relative short order, allowing more effective testing specifically in regards to crafting.

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That would definitely go a long ways towards testing the results. Yet, it would need to still take long enough that each new skill section higher in the trees is tested to ensure it is working as intended.

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Having just gained access to the TEST server (beta 1 group here), I was extremely disappointed that as an aspiring crafter, there is literally NOTHING that I can do to craft until 7-1/2 days of Real Time training have passed. I want to craft!  But even after grinding out 100 ethereal dust to place a crafting station... which I did by the way! I literally played for 12 hours straight, basically sitting at a bunch of low level nodes that I could chip away at with the Basic tools - the only tools I could make because Runecrafting is also time-gated! - until I had enough dust to build a crafting station... and then I discovered that even after all that effort, I still can't even START crafting because all of the recipes are time-gated to a skill node that is a minimum of 7.5 days investment.

Admittedly, there are a lot of short-loop game elements that are not in place yet, but my point is that new crafters want to craft and the current design paradigm is that "No, you are not allow to do that until you make a 7.5 day investment in the game." So, now that I know this, I've completely stopped playing/testing. I just log in twice a day to manage my skill training and wait until the Node that I 'need' is unlocked so that I can actually look at the part of the game that I want to play.

I agree that the artificially boosted crafting in 5.3 is not helpful. Crafting should require some kind of dedication to doing it right. It should NOT be: pop a potion and suddenly you're an uber-crafter. But there needs to be SOMETHING for low-level, unskilled, aspiring crafters to do.

 

Edited by TheRealStupid
Missed a very important word

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To be fair, new crafters have something to do in that span of time in 5.4, which is craft intermediate weapons and sacrifice all but the best for XP to level up to gain attributes, which in turn slightly buffs their crafting stats but...

It is a remarkably inferior way to gain xp compared to just farming mobs, and unless you're planning on training weaponcrafting, not terribly related to your planned advanced profession.

Perhaps in stead of having the first nodes as they are, those bonuses could be rolled in to the first node or distributed among the child nodes, and in stead have the first set of L2 nodes grant a small selection of intermediate tier recipies from the family of disciplines they lead to?

Apprentice Mystic

Replacing Experimentation (bonus moved down experimentation line)

  • Intermediate Rune Tools: Crafted with 3 each nonbasic resource of appropriate type, a basic tool, and dust. Appears as a basic tool but with a blue halo. Same base stats as advanced but can not be experimented on.
  • Basic variants of currently nonexistant basic tools.
  • Corpse Preparation: Crafted with any gravedigging part and x dust. Turns item in to a "preserved" body part now usable in necromancy. Necromancy recipies now require preserved parts.
  • Basic Heal over Time potion: Made from ore/stone, 1/4 as effective as the real thing. No experimentation.

Apprentice Provisioner

Replacing Assembly/Speed (bonus moved down their respective lines, node forks in to those lines)

  • Intermediate Armor for all types: Same scheme as current weapons. Takes basic armor piece, 3x of appropriate intermediate component, dust.
  • Geomancy basic farm parcel moved to this node
  • Basic jewelry, requires dust and metal, minor tertiary stat buff appropriate to metal. (A stand alone version of a jewelry alloy stat, basically a wearable metal bar)

 

This would give new crafters something to craft in their first week that is desired by other new players, and in the case of corpse preparation and the basic farm parcel, something perpetually saleable for players who only want to dip in crafting a tiny bit for ancillary income from gathering.

Edited by PopeUrban

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45 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

To be fair, new crafters have something to do in that span of time in 5.4, which is craft intermediate weapons and sacrifice all but the best for XP to level up to gain attributes, which in turn slightly buffs their crafting stats but...

Actually, that's not true.

ANYONE (not just crafters) have access to the Intermediate level recipes. Why on earth would a player look for a crafter to make them a crafted intermediate level weapon when they can just do it themselves? With no demand, the supply (or lack thereof) is irrelevant.

I still maintain that the first few crafting nodes (unlockable in a day or less) need to gate something. I'm perfectly fine with gating "advanced" gear behind a week (or even longer!) time-gate. I'm specifically thinking of the situation in a clean wipe (aka "launch day"): No players are going to "need" high-level advanced gear at first, and thus there is no 'need' for those nodes to be unlocked. The non-crafters will be busy training their combat nodes for whatever minor advantage those give. Over time, players will need/want better gear, and the advanced nodes should be starting to come online right about then (a week or two in to the game). So it "feels" like the week-long lag for end-game gear is about right, but the current build just doesn't have anything between "basic" and "advanced" recipes. And maybe that's the real problem.

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1 hour ago, TheRealStupid said:

Actually, that's not true.

ANYONE (not just crafters) have access to the Intermediate level recipes. Why on earth would a player look for a crafter to make them a crafted intermediate level weapon when they can just do it themselves? With no demand, the supply (or lack thereof) is irrelevant.

I still maintain that the first few crafting nodes (unlockable in a day or less) need to gate something. I'm perfectly fine with gating "advanced" gear behind a week (or even longer!) time-gate. I'm specifically thinking of the situation in a clean wipe (aka "launch day"): No players are going to "need" high-level advanced gear at first, and thus there is no 'need' for those nodes to be unlocked. The non-crafters will be busy training their combat nodes for whatever minor advantage those give. Over time, players will need/want better gear, and the advanced nodes should be starting to come online right about then (a week or two in to the game). So it "feels" like the week-long lag for end-game gear is about right, but the current build just doesn't have anything between "basic" and "advanced" recipes. And maybe that's the real problem.

can the basic gear be made in different qualities? ie basic white, basic green, basic blue, basic purple and basic gold? even if the advanced overlapped the basic purple/gold as an example.


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EDIT: It turns out you CAN make better quality Basic items. I went out and farmed a bunch of white/common raw materials and crafted a white/common Basic Dagger. As expected, it's not as good at the white/common (Intermediate) Rapier I had already crafted. Aside from the requirement for 25 Dust, there is no reason to make a Basic anything. The intermediate level stuff is so much better. And, I assume that the "advanced" gear is better still, but I can't verify that for another week or so.

Either way, it ultimately doesn't matter. Gathering higher level materials is time-locked on the Exploration tree. Creating higher level rune-tools that would increase the chances of better materials is time-locked at the end of the Crafting tree, just like Blacksmithing and Leathercrafting. Just as crafting is hamstrung with a 7.5 day wait, so is gathering higher level materials.

Personally I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if ACE did a complete skill wipe every time they pushed a new revision to LIVE. I suspect many of the testers saying "It's not a problem, really, just play the game and wait it out" might have their heads explode. :D

 

Edited by TheRealStupid
Added add'l info from testing

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6 hours ago, jetah said:

can the basic gear be made in different qualities? ie basic white, basic green, basic blue, basic purple and basic gold? even if the advanced overlapped the basic purple/gold as an example.

resource colour typically effects number of available experimentation points [vs how many you have trained via crafting skills], with basic having no available expiermentation regardless.

unless it also increases the 'inheritant' stats/damage roll even for basic - @Anhrez/ @srathor<shrug>

[i doubt it does, but im not an expert]

Edited by Tinnis

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The color quality material used to have an effect on basic. Durig 5.3 the grey to white there was a difference but the jump from white to green and beyond was broken. 

Not sure with 5.4 I will give it a go and see. 

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On 28/1/2018 at 8:40 AM, PopeUrban said:

It seems to me that given the current population on testing servers, we do not have sufficient concurrent player counts of trained crafters

I Agree.

But honestly I don't think ACE want us focused in testing crafting since at the moment crafting stations are broken and developers decided to reduce ALL crafting time to one second.

On january live Blair insisted about the fact we could hope to have vendor thralls in 5.5, completing the kill-buy-sell loop.
I figure they are waiting to have this loop before tuning the availability of recipes by skills and/or postation.

With vendor on line, we should find stuff realized by Mr.Crafter during his playtest and buy it without investing time in our crafting skill tree...
Otherwise our friend in Austin would see they guessed wrong about realizing this loop. :P
But they can't know by game mechanics as implemented in 5.4  

TLDR: This is a pre-Alpha and the wrong one to test crafting ;)   

 

Edited by RikForFun

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Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

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@Tinnis Checked it again on Test 5.4 

unknown.png

Grey BP

unknown.png

White BP

unknown.png


Green BP

Progression works for Grey to white, but is broken for White to Green. Didn't have enough wood for blue. But from 5.3 Blue was not advancing either. 

Back in 5.2 they all advanced. Blue was 25 to all resists Green was 23 White was 20 and Grey was 15 (I think on grey. mind is fuzzy)


 

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