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Valdranc187

Time Based Skill system But why???

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So watched some videos on crafting and gathering and saw the cool stuff they adding and what not. Non of that showed me I had to wait hours and hours just so I might be able to crafter better gear. So basicly I'm playing eve online and just log in every month to check skill progression then some day when my skills are high enogh I can jump in the game and actualy play.. Wait I'm a new player that just downloaded the game tho... its ok pick your skills log out come back in a month.... The videos sound great jump in no levels everyone kill everyone have fun doing it.... well until they find out you hit with a brick wall to start????    Sorry that was just my feelings on it may not effect others like me. I enjoy hopping into a new game and just grind fest so I can get to play with the big boys but in my opinion the big boys just started a long time ago so now I have to wait real world time ( lol real world that's why I play games) to level sorry skill up ( sad face)  I love crafting so to find out I have to not only skill up the tree under exploration I also have to skill up the crafting tree... talk about brick walls... Oh also not sure if I'm lagging but would be nice if Hot bar moves would intrupt me holding down LMB so I would not have to completely stop moving so I could go into the gather resource buff or so I could hit a skill while fighting. Being able to move around while resource gathering would be cool too.. like out in the wild some ones coming at you I start straifing away during a swing on resource action to start getting away instead of completely stopping out of the action so I can start moving again. Toned it down some was really (mean words) mad that ppl even used this kinda skill based system the only game that pulled it off how you would even want to use this kinda system was Mortal online because the time based skill system is used for ppl who don't have time to play and so you work you gain skill you off line you gain skill but at the pas of the time based skill system

 

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That is definitely a wall of text but I'll try to decipher it.

1. Yes of course you need to train crafting to craft the best gear. Why would you be able to instantly craft the best gear your first minute playing? It's just the same as say, leveling up a professional to max level in WoW or something. 

2. They are skill wiping at soft launch I believe so that will be an even starting place for everyone, including those who are behind in training right now. Moving forward, the devs have been considering some sort of mechanic to help newer players catch up though it won't be anything too crazy. Plus the initial crafting skills don't take too much time to learn. 

3. I'm not sure what you mean by hot bar skills interrupting your LMB. However I believe they actually do interrupt your LMB if you're gathering. You can also move while gathering (holding LMB rather) to reposition on the node. 

Don't worry to much about the crafting skills and passive system. Everyone will be in the same boat come soft launch.

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ahh ok cool didn't research enough to see reskilling everyone. thank you for clearing that up.

 

I wish WoW was never made ive played since Ultima online release and EQ. I want reward for my grind is what I'm saying. I enjoy grinding when I first jump into a game kinda like a pre program to myself cuse of all the older style MMOs but the one game I talked about before just felt like it had a good idea for casual and hardcore. this skill style just feels like there is no progression for the amount of time I'm willing to put into it. But I love that it resets maps and such kinda like a long drawn out MOBA which is why I'm here still got a bad tast in my mouth from EPIC betraying ppl in them going to close down paragon. But thank you again for clearing it up for me at least if the skill doesn't change we will be put on par and hopfuly new guys will have a chance to not feel out in the cold from start

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Because people are tired of grind to catch up to friends, and being left so far behind as to be locked out with playing with their dedicated friends that are online way more than they are.

Because that's what ACE has been selling since day one, and a bunch of us who don't want to grind XP in yet another MMO happen to like the idea and backed with money the developers that said they were going to do it.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Because people are tired of grind to catch up to friends, and being left so far behind as to be locked out with playing with their dedicated friends that are online way more than they are.

Because that's what ACE has been selling since day one, and a bunch of us who don't want to grind XP in yet another MMO happen to like the idea and backed with money the developers that said they were going to do it.

What's the difference between actively grinding and waiting for time to pass? Assuming you can play "the game" day 1 and it's just a matter of having access to better/more options after grinding or waiting for time to pass?

Also to point out, the "grind" people seem to be tired of doesn't really exist anymore. At least not compared to MMOs 10-15+ years ago. Believe I've read Shadowbane folks saying they would grind out a new character/build over a weekend or two. That seems a lot more interesting and rewarding then CF's system. Most old and new MMOs make progress almost too fast in most cases.

Funny that now we have Passive training which IMO is more tedious than actively grinding, but then they add in leveling Vessels by doing what? Grinding!!! mobs and sacrificing items that had to come from more grinding of resources/crafting... 

MMOs are grind. CF is no different and if anything might be worse than older games.

Grind for apples. Grind for resources. Grind out gear/Vessels. Grind out Vessel levels. Patiently wait (mental grind) for Passive training to progress.

Things are still working themselves out, but the initial "don't want to feel another xp bar" comment is certainly not what is happening. Different wrapper is all.

Edited by APE

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16 hours ago, Jjohnsin said:

Don't worry to much about the crafting skills and passive system. Everyone will be in the same boat come soft launch.

What about post launch?

With Tomes, new players might not have the pleasure of dealing with initial "hard work" of clicking nodes and waiting just to make it to a more specialized route and way of playing.

If the initial time is part of the game and experience, why would ACE create a system that allows folks to skip it or at least greatly reduce the time?

Then again, if the game has a "super shallow power curve" and passive training doesn't matter all that much, why would new players need to catch up to begin with? We should already be able to play the game how we want from the start right?

Edited by APE

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By the time you start getting higher into the trees the advantages are much larger, especially as they start to accumulate. The route you decide to take will have a huge impact on how you play your character, which will more than likely depend on your play style and approach to the game.  When you start adding points in multiple trees the impact is massive. That can become a problem when we get to 6 months plus after launch, a new player would be at a serious disadvantage compared to someone who has been playing since day 1. To close that gap the new player can use tomes to accelerate that process. Regardless of your play style and approach to the game you can always find something to work on.

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5 hours ago, APE said:

What about post launch?

With Tomes, new players might not have the pleasure of dealing with initial "hard work" of clicking nodes and waiting just to make it to a more specialized route and way of playing.

If the initial time is part of the game and experience, why would ACE create a system that allows folks to skip it or at least greatly reduce the time?

Then again, if the game has a "super shallow power curve" and passive training doesn't matter all that much, why would new players need to catch up to begin with? We should already be able to play the game how we want from the start right?

Uhhh...post launch people will do what people always do post launch? Realize they are late to the start of the game and may be at an initially lower power level than people playing the game since release? I'm not a fan of tomes in the first place but I don't really care. I just think this idea going around that "oh no I bought the game late, I'm worse than someone in something so I should get babied" is lame. 

It's like a week or two ONCE in your whole accounts lifetime. Just a drop in the bucket if you ask me. 

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7 hours ago, ZeFx said:

By the time you start getting higher into the trees the advantages are much larger, especially as they start to accumulate. The route you decide to take will have a huge impact on how you play your character, which will more than likely depend on your play style and approach to the game.  When you start adding points in multiple trees the impact is massive. That can become a problem when we get to 6 months plus after launch, a new player would be at a serious disadvantage compared to someone who has been playing since day 1. To close that gap the new player can use tomes to accelerate that process. Regardless of your play style and approach to the game you can always find something to work on.

This is no different than someone at max level in WoW with the best pvp gear versus someone who just hit max level and is now entering pvp.

There is always going to be someone with an advantage or disadvantage. Someone 6 months in their skill training playing the game compared to a new player shouldn't be balanced. It never should be balanced ever in any online game that's competitive.


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1 hour ago, entityofsin said:

This is no different than someone at max level in WoW with the best pvp gear versus someone who just hit max level and is now entering pvp.

There is always going to be someone with an advantage or disadvantage. Someone 6 months in their skill training playing the game compared to a new player shouldn't be balanced. It never should be balanced ever in any online game that's competitive.

I definitely agree that the people that have spent the time and have played since launch should have an advantage as they have already put forth the time and effort to get to that spot. My point was that someone who has spent the time will have better overall stats from some one is who has little to no training.

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Training is crucial when it comes down to crafting, maybe not power level as in PvP power, but it makes you matter in the game, so if you do get in 6 monhts post launch you are not only at a disadvantage, you are not worth anything. You could join a guild and get handed free loot of course but you would surely not contribute anything at all other than a meat sack. 

The passive training gates those things behind a time wall, and while you say " well someone who starts early should always have an advantage", why is this not the case in any other competetive online games ? I mean there is always some, but that shallows out over time when you gain ingame experience from combat and learn all the classes, theres only so much to learn. Then again you cant invest more time than the guy at 6 months, you are locked 6 months behind, he only have to log in once a day and update his current progression on his tree... and he would still be in front. 

In WoW or other games, but since you mentioned that you could atleast farm urself up to max lvl, and then grind out the gear needed, so if you did invest a lot of time in the game you would be able to compete on the same level, atleast if you were good. In CF you will always be behind if you are not here from the start no matter what you do... in other words you cant do anything to compete with others in front of you.

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5 minutes ago, deiphoboz said:

In CF you will always be behind if you are not here from the start no matter what you do... in other words you cant do anything to compete with others in front of you.

There will be a catch-up mechanic. People will be able to buy Tomes containing stored training time from other players.


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20 minutes ago, deiphoboz said:

Training is crucial when it comes down to crafting, maybe not power level as in PvP power, but it makes you matter in the game, so if you do get in 6 monhts post launch you are not only at a disadvantage, you are not worth anything. You could join a guild and get handed free loot of course but you would surely not contribute anything at all other than a meat sack. 

New accounts still have value to bring to the table for a guild. That's an extra person doing damage, soaking up damage, staying on watch in a harvesting group, and even being useful in the initial beginning stages of a new campaign world. This isn't even including how they can assist in capturing POIs or even making a ton of intermediate axes to cut down trees and get apples or use a skinning knife to kill animals for meat to help strengthen the guild's food supplies.

The passive training gates those things behind a time wall, and while you say " well someone who starts early should always have an advantage", why is this not the case in any other competetive online games ? I mean there is always some, but that shallows out over time when you gain ingame experience from combat and learn all the classes, theres only so much to learn. Then again you cant invest more time than the guy at 6 months, you are locked 6 months behind, he only have to log in once a day and update his current progression on his tree... and he would still be in front. 

I am not going to start listing and explaining why a veteran player of a game should, for the most part, have an advantage over a newer player. Nor am I going to do so by bringing in a bunch of other games I've played as examples. When a new player joins a guild and that guild isn't willing to support that person and help them out then that new player needs to find a new guild. The game is a team based pvp game and if guilds aren't willing to help each member get stronger to strengthen the entire guild overall, then it isn't a guild worth being in. The argument that new players are gated far behind a 6 month veteran is a little silly. A 6 month veteran is gated far behind a 12 month and so on.

It feels like when people discuss the skill training system they often forget or aren't even aware of the catch-up mechanic of Skill Tomes that will exist a little bit after launch. Even if crafters are gated behind a skill training node to make better gear and vessels, it doesn't really matter. These things change in time and someone who wants to go a crafting path in Crowfall has to do what they can with with that have. Everyone will.

In WoW or other games, but since you mentioned that you could atleast farm urself up to max lvl, and then grind out the gear needed, so if you did invest a lot of time in the game you would be able to compete on the same level, atleast if you were good. In CF you will always be behind if you are not here from the start no matter what you do... in other words you cant do anything to compete with others in front of you.

You can do something about competing with others with more skill training. A lot of these issues that you think exist can be solved by being in a guild that isn't ran by greedy people that just want all the best items funneled to them. It happened and still happens in Albion Online and we can look at how terrible that game is doing now. Wanna know what their progression system is for items? An active system where you have to perform the same action hundreds of time to get a minor upgrade in strength or be able to use a higher tier piece of gear. It's a grind and probably one of the sources of why people quit playing that game.

If your guild isn't willing to help you out, find a new one. Full stop. Guilds that get known for treating their people badly will stop getting new recruits.

Comparing a new player account to a 6 month trained up one is pretty silly. They shouldn't even be close to the same leveled playing field. 6 months is a lot of time. Not just for the skill training but for that player to do a bunch of other things, such as acquire new vessels and level them up, extra sets of gear stashed in the bank in their personal or guild EK, stockpiling extra crafting mats, several different trees in multiple roles worked on, and an overall better familiarity of the game's mechanics and systems.

It's the new player's responsibility to earn all of that themselves.

 


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it was great in archeage when we were able to get some new people in and bring them along with us on naval raids. I liked the idea that a new person was able to contribute something without having to spend time getting to max level. 

I loved Eve taking away that leveling process and tying it to real time. Instead of increasing the level every expansion they add more skills. No one was ever done training in Eve (pre-injectors) when I played it last. That has changed recently, however. One problem was starting 5 years after the game launched but people were able to sell characters within the confines of the system. Anyone could buy plex and trade them for a character which allowed new players to 'catch up' so to speak.

I'll enjoy getting new guild members to play and them not having to spend a week(end) leveling a character to join us! Sure the skills may help but sometimes having quantity is better than quality.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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12 hours ago, Jah said:

There will be a catch-up mechanic. People will be able to buy Tomes containing stored training time from other players.

Assuming people are willing to part with them and new players have something of value to offer. Without selling them in the store, new players will be at the mercy of older ones to help them catch up. Might be some friendly guilds out there just handing hundreds of hours of training away, but hopefully they know who they are power leveling. Wouldn't want them eating up all those Tomes and skipping off to another guild...oh the drama.

12 hours ago, KanashiGD said:

It's not about the destination, it's about the journey.

If the game is not fun enough to play daily regardless of passively unlocking or actively grinding then there are more serious design issues.

Which is the issue I believe some are seeing. If people can't get out of the driveway before going "are we there yet," might be some potential issues to address.

12 hours ago, entityofsin said:


A lot of these issues that you think exist can be solved by being in a guild that isn't ran by greedy people that just want all the best items funneled to them. It happened and still happens in Albion Online and we can look at how terrible that game is doing now. 

Aren't those the guild that have done the best across gaming? The more competitive a group is, the more is required of its members. Those wanting to be part of the best or hope to reach the same tier seem willing to put up with it. Been like that forever. Being in a top tier raiding guild in EQ/WoW for example wasn't for just anyone that wanted to join. Ever fill out a guild application for one of them. Basically ask if people are willing to hand over their first born to get a item drop. Same goes for PVP based games, if not worse. I've heard some stories about EVE corps...

If your guild isn't willing to help you out, find a new one. Full stop. Guilds that get known for treating their people badly will stop getting new recruits.

Again, history would say otherwise. Of course there is always drama, people leaving, guilds splitting, etc, but like real life, people seem more than willing to eat their young and step on their bestie to get to the top.

Comparing a new player account to a 6 month trained up one is pretty silly. They shouldn't even be close to the same leveled playing field.

There is always going to be someone with an advantage or disadvantage. Someone 6 months in their skill training playing the game compared to a new player shouldn't be balanced. It never should be balanced ever in any online game that's competitive.

Why does it have to be this way? As you point out below, there is so much more stuff in-game that requires active time/effort/skill that involves moment to moment actions, choices, risk/reward, etc.

Why does there have to be a system basically out of game providing power or better options simply due to when an account was created?

Not sure if you've ever played a game that falls into the "esport" category or more structured MMO PVP/arenas, but they are relatively fair regardless of when people start. It is all based on player skill/knowledge and ability to actually play the game. Not if they happened to start a month or five years ago.

MMOs are never fair and cant' be for a lot of reasons, some passive system running in the background shouldn't provide a greater gap just because. To me that is far from being competitive at least if you want to put it more in the players hands and not gamey mechanics.

To me this is pretty much the same as P2W issues. Having access to power outside of skill based performance. Be it money or age of an account.

6 months is a lot of time. Not just for the skill training but for that player to do a bunch of other things, such as acquire new vessels and level them up, extra sets of gear stashed in the bank in their personal or guild EK, stockpiling extra crafting mats, several different trees in multiple roles worked on, and an overall better familiarity of the game's mechanics and systems.

It's the new player's responsibility to earn all of that themselves.

Totally agree, but we don't "earn" passive training. It's a given based on age of an account and the ability to log in once in a while and click a couple buttons.

The argument that new players are gated far behind a 6 month veteran is a little silly. A 6 month veteran is gated far behind a 12 month and so on.

Remove the gates, no one is behind them.

Training only contributes a small part of your vessel's power and ability anyways.

Do we have numbers to back this up?

 

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2 minutes ago, APE said:

A lot of these issues that you think exist can be solved by being in a guild that isn't ran by greedy people that just want all the best items funneled to them. It happened and still happens in Albion Online and we can look at how terrible that game is doing now. 

Aren't those the guild that have done the best across gaming? The more competitive a group is, the more is required of its members. Those wanting to be part of the best or hope to reach the same tier seem willing to put up with it. Been like that forever. Being in a top tier raiding guild in EQ/WoW for example wasn't for just anyone that wanted to join. Ever fill out a guild application for one of them. Basically ask if people are willing to hand over their first born to get a item drop. Same goes for PVP based games, if not worse. I've heard some stories about EVE corps...

If your guild isn't willing to help you out, find a new one. Full stop. Guilds that get known for treating their people badly will stop getting new recruits.

Again, history would say otherwise. Of course there is always drama, people leaving, guilds splitting, etc, but like real life, people seem more than willing to eat their young and step on their bestie to get to the top.

Comparing a new player account to a 6 month trained up one is pretty silly. They shouldn't even be close to the same leveled playing field.

There is always going to be someone with an advantage or disadvantage. Someone 6 months in their skill training playing the game compared to a new player shouldn't be balanced. It never should be balanced ever in any online game that's competitive.

Why does it have to be this way? As you point out below, there is so much more stuff in-game that requires active time/effort/skill that involves moment to moment actions, choices, risk/reward, etc.

Why does there have to be a system basically out of game providing power or better options simply due to when an account was created?

Not sure if you've ever played a game that falls into the "esport" category or more structured MMO PVP/arenas, but they are relatively fair regardless of when people start. It is all based on player skill/knowledge and ability to actually play the game. Not if they happened to start a month or five years ago.

MMOs are never fair and cant' be for a lot of reasons, some passive system running in the background shouldn't provide a greater gap just because. To me that is far from being competitive at least if you want to put it more in the players hands and not gamey mechanics.

To me this is pretty much the same as P2W issues. Having access to power outside of skill based performance. Be it money or age of an account.

6 months is a lot of time. Not just for the skill training but for that player to do a bunch of other things, such as acquire new vessels and level them up, extra sets of gear stashed in the bank in their personal or guild EK, stockpiling extra crafting mats, several different trees in multiple roles worked on, and an overall better familiarity of the game's mechanics and systems.

It's the new player's responsibility to earn all of that themselves.

Totally agree, but we don't "earn" passive training. It's a given based on age of an account and the ability to log in once in a while and click a couple buttons.

The argument that new players are gated far behind a 6 month veteran is a little silly. A 6 month veteran is gated far behind a 12 month and so on.

Remove the gates, no one is behind them.

Training only contributes a small part of your vessel's power and ability anyways.

Do we have numbers to back this up?

I am not going to do the whole bolded thing here.

The reason why I think joining a guild that's willing to help you out as a new player is the solution cause it makes that player feel like they're part of an actual team. Crowfall isn't going to have the same "kind" of competitive feel like WoW. Even if you want to compare it's competitiveness to the likes of something that's not similar to it, such as a MOBA or even PUBG, it still has that strong emphasis of team and group cooperation beyond just 5 man groups. There's going to be small group coordination just like there will be much larger groups dynamics. It's a MMO after all.

Albion Online is probably one of the most comparable games to Crowfall. The only way to become competitive in that game is to prove you actually can do Hellgates, GvGs, and castle sieges with a noticeable amount of skill. The only way to get that experience in doing those things to get better is to actually do them. If you can't join a guild that's willing to get you some experience in that then what purpose do you have in that guild? It becomes irrelevant at that point what tier of gear you can wear and use for all of those sources of pvp. You're left to wait around to do open world pvp which doesn't really exist in the game anymore.

And why is there going to always be someone with an advantage or disadvantage? That's the nature of competition. There's always someone that's going to have better options or resources than you or even comparable ones but with better management skills of those resources. One of the main problems why new players in Albion Online couldn't get any sort of competitive pvp experience in was cause stuff was funneled to a small group of players. Mostly the top 15 in the guild you join. What caused this is because of the lack of things you can do in Albion. You could basically wait for open world pvp, go on resource runs,  or go on silver runs. That was for new and veteran players a like who couldn't get into the actual competitive pvp.

I don't know what esports has to do with Crowfall cause I haven't heard anything from ACE saying they've got the esport scene on their minds. Even if they do, designing a game around that is probably a terrible idea. If you look at the majority of the games that are making it in esports they are small team based or solo player based gaming experiences. Crowfall isn't designed solely for small team based (team based yes but more on a sliding scale of how large the group can be cause castle sieges are a thing) or solo based. The WoW arena esport scene isn't even relevant enough either. Maybe this stuff would if Crowfall was going to have some sort of 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 arena system but I highly doubt it ever will.

You said to remove gates and nobody would be behind. This isn't aligned with the core vision of what ACE wants and they most likely are going to keep the system. Eternal heroes and dying worlds kind of is the premise of what the skill training does.

Nobody knows how much overall power your vessels will get exactly from the skill training. I've heard a number floating around on the forums of ~10% but that's probably a wild guess and even if it's sourced from ACE it still isn't accurate IMO. All we can really do is go off what we've been told and use the most recent information we have and that's what I did.

I think at the end of the day if someone wants to play competitive, they aren't going to let a passive skill training system in a game be the deciding factor of whether or not they will play Crowfall. There's always someone who is going to be better than you in any online game you play. Just have to suck it up and work on getting better to over come opposition.

APE, the only thing I am concerned about with the skill training is how much power your character gets from it. I think without exact actual numbers in a more complete game loop environment, we won't really know for sure. It isn't like the training system can't be scrapped after launch completely if it becomes that big of an issue. Just means VIP would need to be reworked for something else and that could bring up an entirely even bigger issue by itself.

/endrant


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Nobody mentions that the skills take longer and longer to complete thus a player at 6 months is training nodes that take 14 days vs a new player completing nodes in 3 days (1.5 days to 4 pips).   While the newer player will not catch up completely with this, they will slowly narrow the gap and tomes narrows it further.

  Note: for the most part the nodes have the same value although some nodes for races and classes have some traditional boosts to some nodes: i.e elves have some nodes that give 10 int instead of 5 late in the tree and some classes have nodes that give 5% crit instead of 3.

 

Edited by Frykka

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