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Valdranc187

Time Based Skill system But why???

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And you need to feel a difference beetween an old player and a new one (skill tree) or so what would be the use to play a lot? or to play the game since 6month? and new player without any will to train hard always complain for older player in all games, and even if u give him the same skill tree, a more skilled player could easily win against you so what will you do?

I think the skill tree is nice cause you need to master Something so in the end you can't play alone crowfall, you need to team to farm outside, or team to craft item you didn't invest on, and the same will go for other player who didn't learn ur craft job.

And as people say, old players won't go farm food or else if they need to construct fort or else so newbies could help farm simple ressources in the first time, it's the same in real job, you can't expect to be the leader when u didn't learn how to make the final product or manage a team, so new player (just like me) just need to find some suitable teammate to learn the game with them and enjoy "the Journey", and there is and i'm sure there will be tons of way to enjoy this games until you master the skill tree or you really manage to take fort or win campain.

My bad for my lyrics, it is a bit repetitive

Edited by Elliatron

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in the Race group. Basic takes 3 months to train. The next group (Man, Monster) takes 6 months each, next group (Human, Half-blood) takes 1 year each. Totaling 7 years 9 months of straight training. VIP will cost ~1400$ for that total amount of time but should only take half that so 3 years 11 months (it's a guess) at a cost of ~700$.

 

Remember that the first group gives you the best stats per time trained. the second group gives average stats per time and the last group gives the worst.


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On 1/28/2018 at 10:41 PM, APE said:

What's the difference between actively grinding and waiting for time to pass? Assuming you can play "the game" day 1 and it's just a matter of having access to better/more options after grinding or waiting for time to pass?

Actively grinding requires my time. One of the main reasons I backed this game during the Kickstarter was the passive progression. I want to play games, but I don't have any interest in spending the majority of my time grinding.

On 1/28/2018 at 10:41 PM, APE said:

Also to point out, the "grind" people seem to be tired of doesn't really exist anymore. At least not compared to MMOs 10-15+ years ago. Believe I've read Shadowbane folks saying they would grind out a new character/build over a weekend or two. That seems a lot more interesting and rewarding then CF's system. Most old and new MMOs make progress almost too fast in most cases.

I think the passive time based progression system will slow down progress and place it behind a time gate which will definitely alleviate the race to the end syndrome prevalent in most MMO's. I feel like this will create opportunites to have fun at multiple different points before the 'End Game'.

On 1/28/2018 at 10:41 PM, APE said:

Funny that now we have Passive training which IMO is more tedious than actively grinding, but then they add in leveling Vessels by doing what? Grinding!!! mobs and sacrificing items that had to come from more grinding of resources/crafting... 

You previously mentioned that the weekend grinding in Shadowbane seemed more interesting and rewarding. This is that, isn't it? Seemed like a brilliant idea to me. 

On 1/28/2018 at 10:41 PM, APE said:

MMOs are grind. CF is no different and if anything might be worse than older games.

Grind for apples. Grind for resources. Grind out gear/Vessels. Grind out Vessel levels. Patiently wait (mental grind) for Passive training to progress.

Things are still working themselves out, but the initial "don't want to feel another xp bar" comment is certainly not what is happening. Different wrapper is all.

It is a different wrapper, that's definitely true, but I don't know if that's all it is.

 

 

Of all the systems I've ever seen in any MMO, this is the one that has me most interested. It seems balanced and well thought out. Is there a game with a progression system that you can point to that is superior? 

 

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25 minutes ago, Santovenia said:

Of all the systems I've ever seen in any MMO, this is the one that has me most interested. It seems balanced and well thought out. Is there a game with a progression system that you can point to that is superior? 

While not superior, Eve Online offers passive training but is a little better in that you can directly train what you want.  I started as a miner (gatherer) while needing to defend myself I paused those and went into drones (npc's that defend you or an ally). After some of that training I needed better ship skills so i purchased some navigation skills and started those. After a while my mining was doing great but I needed a better ship. I bought new ship skills and started that. Once I had a better ship and could mine well enough, I started manufacturing and production skills.  All of these skills didn't have prerequisites. There were skills that required mining 4 or science 4 or navigation 5.

With CF if you want mass manufacturing you need blacksmithing. You can't train necromancy and then mass manufacturing. 


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19 minutes ago, jetah said:

With CF if you want mass manufacturing you need blacksmithing. You can't train necromancy and then mass manufacturing. 

That is not actually the case...   the manufacturer nodes are unlocked in the basics tree (the graphic puts it to the right of BS but BS does not unlock it!)   To get the better outcomes from using factories you don't have to train any of the crafts, you can work from blueprints given to you by any of the crafting professions.   You need to train that odd node between the basic crafting assembly and basic crafting speed branches in the basics tree.  The individual crafts have a branch for workbench thrall quality and for blueprint quality, these are where the BPs are made.   Neither BPs or factories are do into the game for the short term.


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28 minutes ago, Frykka said:

That is not actually the case...   the manufacturer nodes are unlocked in the basics tree (the graphic puts it to the right of BS but BS does not unlock it!)   To get the better outcomes from using factories you don't have to train any of the crafts, you can work from blueprints given to you by any of the crafting professions.   You need to train that odd node between the basic crafting assembly and basic crafting speed branches in the basics tree.  The individual crafts have a branch for workbench thrall quality and for blueprint quality, these are where the BPs are made.   Neither BPs or factories are do into the game for the short term.

Ace needs to change that!


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On 1/31/2018 at 12:11 PM, Santovenia said:

Actively grinding requires my time. One of the main reasons I backed this game during the Kickstarter was the passive progression. I want to play games, but I don't have any interest in spending the majority of my time grinding.

I'm not for active over passive progression, rather I don't believe such games "need" permanent vertical stat progression at all to allow for competitive play and customized builds. CF already has plenty of ways to build characters. 

I definitely don't want to spend the majority of my time grinding or waiting around for others to grind out XYZ so I can then play how I want. Which is pretty much what we have now.

As far as backing because of passive progression... KS didn't really go into it at all beyond the FAQ stating there was passive progression of "skills." I'd argue that the "skills" we have are pretty lackluster and IMO go against the "super shallow power curve" they are promising. Plenty minor and major KS features have changed along with what was originally listed in the FAQ which is rather outdated. Although it did list more about progression early on if that is what you are referring to.

Quote

I think the passive time based progression system will slow down progress and place it behind a time gate which will definitely alleviate the race to the end syndrome prevalent in most MMO's. I feel like this will create opportunites to have fun at multiple different points before the 'End Game'.

Ideally, there is no "end game." Eventually people will max out lines and have top quality gear, but it's all relative to the moment in which anything can happen. Issue I have that hopefully they address fully is the early game needs to be fun and allow for "the game" to happen. If players are gated behind rather boring options early on (basic lines specifically), might lose some interest very quickly. 

As jetah mentioned, EVE's system of allowing people to pick and choose a lot more freely is better IMO. Still allows for a lot of pre-reqs and time gated progress, but players aren't funneled so much. Not really fair comparison as the games are much different, but to me they simply started out with a better basic model to later build on. Without restructuring, CF won't be as engaging long term. Once you pick a "Profession"/Race Path/Class Path, pretty much locked into them if one wants to be efficient. VIP allowing 2 is a major selling point for this reason. 

Although its sounds like they will try to rush people through the boring start, so not that bad potentially.

Again, if we didn't have vertical stat progression aka "the power race," there wouldn't be any need to catch up, feeling of being left behind, grinding to reach X, etc. A more complex/deep game design would of went a lot further to engage/challenge players at the start and years down the line when it comes to this area at least.

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You previously mentioned that the weekend grinding in Shadowbane seemed more interesting and rewarding. This is that, isn't it? Seemed like a brilliant idea to me. 

Maybe? Only played SB briefly at the start so really can't remember. I was under the impression one could make a new character and grind out lvls and get the gear/disciplines relatively quickly to jump to top end game play. The new CF vessel leveling does provide stats, but the passive system is still in the background so one isn't fully done until they wait for time to pass. Along with the gap between new/old existing in some form or another.

Just find it kind of odd that you and others say you backed specifically for passive progression, yet are fine that they've added in active grinding progression. Sure it might not be as bad as insert game title, but it's still time we'll have to put in each time we get a new vessel if we want to be at maximum potential.

IMO, they could just as easily put all the passive progression power into the same system and allow players to grind it out all the same. Instead of 50 Dex over a weekend, we'd get 200 or whatever it going to happen. Just up the cap. Puts the option into players hands if they want to put in the time or not for the extra bit of edge. Requires effort/time/skill and comes with risk v reward. Clicking a node and waiting requires time and more time only. But, neither system would be my ideal.

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It is a different wrapper, that's definitely true, but I don't know if that's all it is.

We'll see. If I didn't have some hope, wouldn't have stuck around.

Quote

Of all the systems I've ever seen in any MMO, this is the one that has me most interested. It seems balanced and well thought out. Is there a game with a progression system that you can point to that is superior? 

EVE seems to be superior from what I can understand of it. ACE seems to have took inspiration from it, but much was lost in translation, which makes sense considering the differences between the games. 

But again, a non vertical stat progression system built on horizontal options would be superior IMO. 

Which could work but would require re-tooling to how resources and crafting work. All gear and resources would need to be relatively equal without any tiered system. Which I've had some ideas on but it's pointless as they've already gone down the tried and true, vertical design path.

Edited by APE

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Perhaps in time when and if Crowfall becomes a sustainable and profitable product that ACE can invest in expanding the skill training system to be a lot more complex and more on the level of EVE Online's. Haven't played EVE but if the skill system in that game is really that much better than finding a way to incorporate that level of complexity into Crowfall would make the skill training feel more meaningful, important, and actually require more planning.

I believe the direction they are taking currently is because of budgetary reasons within the time frame they want to roll the final product out. It isn't like every MMO has their talent trees or progression system perfect from day 1 anyways.

On that note, I seriously hope ACE continues to expand and build upon the foundation they are making, even if it includes switching things around without time in nodes getting wiped or giving players a training voucher that fully trains up a single node of a particular tree tier. It isn't like there isn't options they can take in order to continue to make adjustments on the skill training system without screwing players over. Something that @thomasblair and the team will need to look at if they do plan on making adjustments and tweaks to the training system.


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2 hours ago, Arkade said:

Because grinding mobs for XP in a PvP game is stupid. The passive skill system allows players to focus on playing rather than grinding. 

There is an active exp grind but it requires taking gear and/or resources and using it to boost the vessel.

----------

 

@APE I think the biggest problem is ACE switched from a archetype to a race/class. Maybe we should have basic skills and we learn new ones from the skill tree. Problem with that now is those skills would have to be in the class specific section. If there are some skills that multiple classes use then put them into the branch before. IE duelist, assassin and ranger have 3 common skills then those would be added into the rogue group. Maybe some 'special' skills can be added into those groups.

CF took a different route. Sure it might be easier to think of a better way now but now much better is it?  I'd prefer to see more general boost in the Basic trees, some specialization in the intermediate group then the advanced group be very specific. IE: Gathering in the Basic group increases the doobers and reduces the durability. Intermediate group splits stone, wood, ore but increases doobers even more. The advanced group would be nothing but separating the types of materials.  This would give a sense of progression. It would also reflect Eve a little bit because there is Mining, Advanced Mining then specific ores. Reprocessing has the same skill structure.

One problem I have now is figuring out which race and class to main. Do I focus on 2 separate races and classes but extend my training time or do I pick 2 races that fill the intermediate class.

All considering, I believe ACE is doing a great job. It sounds like the race/class split was a last minute decision and the skill tree reflects that.


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1 hour ago, jetah said:

There is an active exp grind but it requires taking gear and/or resources and using it to boost the vessel.

I'm aware of that, but it's a fast grind and you don't really have to go out of your way to accomplish it. You won't be sitting in one spot killing mobs for hours on end. Instead, you'll be doing things that help your faction/guild win the campaign.

Edited by Arkade

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2 hours ago, Arkade said:

I'm aware of that, but it's a fast grind and you don't really have to go out of your way to accomplish it. You won't be sitting in one spot killing mobs for hours on end. Instead, you'll be doing things that help your faction/guild win the campaign.

if you need leather for armor to sacrifice then yes you will be in one spot killing mobs. 


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5 minutes ago, jetah said:

if you need leather for armor to sacrifice then yes you will be in one spot killing mobs. 

However, you don't need any specific thing to sacrifice. You can sacrifice all sorts of things, and you can get those things in all sorts of ways.

If you stand in one spot farming leather to sacrifice that is a choice you made. You could instead harvest things to sell to other players, craft things to sell to other players, or just kill and loot other players. Or even just have stuff to sacrifice handed to you by your guild in exchange for doing things the guild needs done.

It is a much more flexible "grind" than most XP grinds.


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7 hours ago, Arkade said:

Because grinding mobs for XP in a PvP game is stupid. The passive skill system allows players to focus on playing rather than grinding. 

.....

I'm aware of that, but it's a fast grind and you don't really have to go out of your way to accomplish it. You won't be sitting in one spot killing mobs for hours on end. Instead, you'll be doing things that help your faction/guild win the campaign.

They literally added XP Bars that have players going out and grinding on mobs or trashing items obtained through whatever means. Not sure how this is done without sitting in one spot, going out of our way, or helping win campaigns. It's a time sink to fuel the carrot design that most games have.

I agree that grinding on mobs is stupid (for this game at least). Early on ACE said they "didn't want to kill more rats, fill another xp bar," some backed because of this. Yet years down the line, they go ahead and tack on even more grinding to a game that will already come with plenty with how day to day tasks work (food, resources, gear, etc).

For me, I don't see the benefit of having passive and active progression if the reasoning for the former is that not everyone has time for the latter. Seems counterproductive, regardless of how relatively fast one might be able to grind it out. Have one or neither.

3 hours ago, entityofsin said:

Perhaps in time when and if Crowfall becomes a sustainable and profitable product that ACE can invest in expanding the skill training system to be a lot more complex and more on the level of EVE Online's. Haven't played EVE but if the skill system in that game is really that much better than finding a way to incorporate that level of complexity into Crowfall would make the skill training feel more meaningful, important, and actually require more planning.

Don't really see it as a budget issue but design limitations/choices.

http://www.eve-files.com/media/0802/skillchart.png

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Skill_Tree_Maps

Passive training works in EVE because of how they planned it out. I'm not an EVE player so no clue how it's started or has evolved, but even looking at this 2008 skill tree and the current Wiki, I can see how different groups of skills build on one another and then how they connect with other groups allowing for planning. There are still plenty of pre-reqs and time gated progress, but to me it makes a lot more sense than CF. Much less need to re-train similar or the exact same skill multiple times.

In CF, there isn't a lot of planning. Want to be an XYZ, go down X, Y, Z paths to the end or close. If you want to swap, basically start over in one or more areas and "lose" the use of a good chunk if not all of what was trained. Being X Race vs Y Race and the same class isn't different enough IMO to warrant needing to spend months/year to train both with the same class. If we actually had unique "skills" per each path, would be different.

Different designs, but one seems more flexible and built with player choices over time in mind.

3 hours ago, jetah said:

 

@APE I think the biggest problem is ACE switched from a archetype to a race/class. Maybe we should have basic skills and we learn new ones from the skill tree.

All considering, I believe ACE is doing a great job. It sounds like the race/class split was a last minute decision and the skill tree reflects that.

I agree and believe they were going down a better route with Archetypes or at least how the training layout was with them. They split everything up too much IMO and we end up with redundant stats/skills that we have to train multiple times if we want to branch out. If I've already trained Crit Chance multiple times for one Racial group, having to train it again for another doesn't entertain me. Even now, with the split, they could have more options in the early areas with more specialized stats further along. So training earlier/longer would likely be more beneficial than going down only one path and limiting ourselves with pseudo specialization.

Personally liked the Archetype model and would of rather seem more unique ATs overtime then so much time/effort being put into making relatively pointless cosmetic variations. Or of course making one combo OP and everyone jumping on board or complaining about it to then have to work on that...

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28 minutes ago, Jah said:

However, you don't need any specific thing to sacrifice. You can sacrifice all sorts of things, and you can get those things in all sorts of ways.

If you stand in one spot farming leather to sacrifice that is a choice you made. You could instead harvest things to sell to other players, craft things to sell to other players, or just kill and loot other players. Or even just have stuff to sacrifice handed to you by your guild in exchange for doing things the guild needs done.

It is a much more flexible "grind" than most XP grinds.

It's a grind all the same though.

Most modern games are very flexible as well allowing players to do pretty much anything to gain XP, hence why I believe the dated view that active progression has to be a massive time sink is inaccurate.

At least in some games you grind once and are done (usually relatively quickly). Looks like CF will have us doing it over and over and over depending on how often we need a new vessel, food, gear, whatever supplies.

If the goal is "a weekend," what if we go through 3 vessels a week? Either we won't be leveling them instead choosing to do something preferred, or we will be and not. Just seems backwards to me with the initial passive training being the solution to grinding plan. Or we keep vessels for extended periods of time with them not decaying or being lootable and remove a layer of risk v reward, which seems the way we are going.

Also, for those that want to be mainly fighters, I really hope there is enough loot to allow for leveling. Personally don't see myself running around with a bunch of random items to lose in fights, especially if gear/vessels can't be looted. Wear what I can keep and have an empty bag.

Edited by APE

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2 hours ago, Jah said:

Yep, just about anything we do to achieve our goals in a game can be viewed as a grind.

True, but they initially sold the design as not having grinds just to have grinds. Vessel leveling specifically is no different than leveling a character in any other game aka "Kill more rats to fill another xp bar." On top of the game having a decent amount of "grind" built in with daily tasks of whatever nature. Then the passive system also stacking stats in the background.

Guess I just find it funny that people have supported/defended the idea of passive training from the start due to it removing the need to actively grind in game to "catch up" to people. Even with how rather lackluster it is. 

But now they add in active grinding for no real reason beyond having something to do, as if we won't have enough to do without it and it's dismissed as not a big deal cause it doesn't take very long or at least that is assumed.

Almost as if the passive system wasn't really needed and they could of just thought up a relatively quick/easy active form of progression in-game...

2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If your only goal is higher stats, rather than having fun along the way, might I suggest http://progressquest.com/

I have zero wish to achieve higher character stats in a competitive game simply to have a one up on others. To me that is the opposite of a strategic based competitive game. Logging in to click some buttons "out of game" or throwing trash into a fire are pretty far from what I want out of such things.

Progression can come in many forms, one of which doesn't have to be straight vertical power creep.

To me it is the easy way to game design. "How can we get people coming back? Just make more powerful stuff! They'll feel obligated to keep climbing."

A game can have a complex gathering/crafting system without having tiers or higher and higher quality.

If you find killing bad AI exciting or burning items as a thrilling experience, awesome, personally expect/want more out of a game.

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, APE said:

True, but they initially sold the design as not having grinds just to have grinds. Vessel leveling specifically is no different than leveling a character in any other game aka "Kill more rats to fill another xp bar." On top of the game having a decent amount of "grind" built in with daily tasks of whatever nature. Then the passive system also stacking stats in the background.

People need long and short term goals. The passive system offers plenty of long term goals. The short term vessel grind is something to keep people out in the world and occupied. Is there a better way to do it? Maybe, I'm not a game designer so I certainly don't know what that way is. The idea they sold us doesn't bother me. A weekend grind to max out a vessel seems ok.

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, APE said:

Guess I just find it funny that people have supported/defended the idea of passive training from the start due to it removing the need to actively grind in game to "catch up" to people. Even with how rather lackluster it is. 

But now they add in active grinding for no real reason beyond having something to do, as if we won't have enough to do without it and it's dismissed as not a big deal cause it doesn't take very long or at least that is assumed.

There is an additional benefit to having the vessel sacrifice grind, It's a resource sink.

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, APE said:

Almost as if the passive system wasn't really needed and they could of just thought up a relatively quick/easy active form of progression in-game...

I have zero wish to achieve higher character stats in a competitive game simply to have a one up on others. To me that is the opposite of a strategic based competitive game. Logging in to click some buttons "out of game" or throwing trash into a fire are pretty far from what I want out of such things.

Progression can come in many forms, one of which doesn't have to be straight vertical power creep.

To me it is the easy way to game design. "How can we get people coming back? Just make more powerful stuff! They'll feel obligated to keep climbing."

A game can have a complex gathering/crafting system without having tiers or higher and higher quality.

If you find killing bad AI exciting or burning items as a thrilling experience, awesome, personally expect/want more out of a game.

Some sort of progression system is needed, the passive system is just what they originally chose. I believe that they added the sacrifice grind because they were concerned about how impatient people are. People want visible progress right now (People are already asking for head starts from day 1 on the forum).

I don't know if I'd call the sacrifice grind a straight vertical power creep. From what I understand (Please correct me if I'm wrong) you max out your vessel in a weekend. Then if you need a new vessel a month later, you do it again. When your campaign ends, maybe you can export the vessel, maybe you can't (Depending on campaign and whether or not you won).

 It's not so much that I find killing bad AI exciting, it's more like I can't always count on human beings to provide me with all my content. I know it's a sandbox, but even a sandbox can be made more interesting by providing some PvE content.

The current game loop, from my limited testing, seems to be harvest, craft, kill till you die, repeat. Would it really be so bad if they threw in a little pve? Maybe a dungeon or rare spawn that drops some slightly nicer crafting resources?

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