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Anhrez

Skills and Bank wipe

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Just my opinion: 

I hear people talking about we won't be able to test certain things but I don't know if that is as important as starting fresh and having the community 'feel' the effort in ramping up. Attributes are now working down stream on stats, vessel leveling will be in, crafting tables are in, VIP testing will be in,  just seems like the mechanics are aligning to have some very alert players check the skill tree impact to their character sheet from the beginning. In many cases training has been in place well before many of the classes were in to start the training for, or those that have tested 5.4 you opened up your skill sheet with a lot of testing already in place, knowing what you know now would you train differently? 

With every wipe we have seen in the past, the sense of 'loss' has been replaced by this communities really skilled efforts in uncovering some of the most obscure but impact-full bugs. Going over the same ground can be painful, but when there are new eyes, new tools (character sheet) and new mechanics to test its not so bad.

I am a crafter/gatherer I have a huge masochistic streak in general. Sure I love watching legendary doobers proc when I am gathering but with the amount of worry I have about the start of the campaign, the stability of the stats/attributes , the desire to understand the effort/reward mechanics that are being created has me more than happy to drop the orange and start picking up cobble again for a few a while.

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I agree. Though it would be very painful to start over again. 
I really think we need a real look at the progression from jump.
Including getting rid of the crafting test potions.
If the crafting test potions are being held over to simulate the crafting discs and real crafting alchemy potions then fine since they are likely not ready yet.
But they are still massively skewing results. And masking how painfully unfun the crafting actually is from a fresh start through the early and mid game. 

Nuke it from orbit it is the only way to be sure about the starting portions of the game. 

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I'm a pretty big fan of wipes in testing. Think they provide a lot of opportunities, like you said, to retrace the same ground and find missed bugs. 

But I usually just roam or TEST numbers in my EK so I won't be losing much other than the slag weapons I made to test. I'm sure other crafters/harvesters have a different viewpoint though as well 

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@Anhrez rip your old avatar :(


p.s. i'd love them to pull the rug on basic vs advanced weapons and free candy disciplines just to highlight how say basic weapon no discipline fights will go :P [base class cd, resources, damage versus healing, mobility vs cc etc]


on topic, napkin maths on if you goal was for example to be a jack of all trades CRAFT character and the progression time to unlock the nodes for every crafting type both within the basic tree and then the first of each node within each sub tree

the node in basics say they give "basic" recipes for that sub type and then the first node in the tree say it grants "initial recipes"

thats not too clear at all...let alone what the whole lines dedicated towards various stages of recipes unlock etc

also assumes 4/5 progression for basic tree t1 travel nodes [not sure if that is allowed in craft trees

Quote

t1 IIII [6 days to 4/5] > t2 [runemaking] [6 days to 5/5]

+t2 [necromancy] [6 days to 5/5]

+ t1 II [3 days to 4/5] + t2 [alch] [6 days to 5/5]

+ t1 III  [4.5 days to 4/5] + t2 [stone] [6 days to 5/5]

+t2 [wood] [6 days to 5/5]

+t2 [black] [6 days to 5/5]

+t1 III [4.5 days to 4/5] + t2 [leather] [6 days to 5/5]

+t2 [jewel] [6 days to 5/5]

t1 x8 for first nodes [24 days to 5/5]

TOTAL: 90 days / 3 months

 

Edited by Tinnis

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8 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

@Anhrez rip your old avatar :(

 

 

Decided to shift towards an Avatar that more clearly defined my crafter/vendor style for launch :)

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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I like the concept of testing a "fresh start", but even if they wipe everything for 5.4 it won't accurately do that.  Once all the systems are in place, absolutely; wipe everything and test it out.  Otherwise, it seems like a waste of time and causes needless frustration. 

Sidebar: I still don't really see much of a point in a 5.4 bank wipe for this reason.  In my opinion, they only time they should wipe is for technical considerations (just not possible to port banks across patches) or because targeted testing requires it (e.g. a "fresh start" test).  Seeing that neither one of those things seem to be the case for 5.4, I don't see the point.

Also, the "fresh start" seems like an illusion to me.  Crowfall will only have a fresh start campaign once; at release (baring campaign specific rules for this).  So, by that logic, our time would be better spent on testing campaigns where we start with lots of training (as that will be far more common).  We could be missing some big picture design direction here, but I think having 90% of the crafting/harvesting progression in the skill tree is going to nullify much of the progression that is supposed to occur in a campaign world.  Obviously a different/bigger issue than the OP, but if that is the way it will be, shouldn't we focus testing on that instead of fresh starts?

Edited by Kirchhoff

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1 hour ago, Kirchhoff said:

I like the concept of testing a "fresh start", but even if they wipe everything for 5.4 it won't accurately do that.  Once all the systems are in place, absolutely; wipe everything and test it out.  Otherwise, it seems like a waste of time and causes needless frustration. 

Sidebar: I still don't really see much of a point in a 5.4 bank wipe for this reason.  In my opinion, they only time they should wipe is for technical considerations (just not possible to port banks across patches) or because targeted testing requires it (e.g. a "fresh start" test).  Seeing that neither one of those things seem to be the case for 5.4, I don't see the point.

Also, the "fresh start" seems like an illusion to me.  Crowfall will only have a fresh start campaign once; at release (baring campaign specific rules for this).  So, by that logic, our time would be better spent on testing campaigns where we start with lots of training (as that will be far more common).  We could be missing some big picture design direction here, but I think having 90% of the crafting/harvesting progression in the skill tree is going to nullify much of the progression that is supposed to occur in a campaign world.  Obviously a different/bigger issue than the OP, but if that is the way it will be, shouldn't we focus testing on that instead of fresh starts?

As I said in another thread, that "fresh start" is where 99% of players will be seeing Crowfall for the first time. That experience needs to be polished to a WoW level of sheen and if it isn't the most fun game you've ever played, then it needs more polish!

I, for one, think that we, as testers, should be repeating that experience as many times as possible to make sure that it is the most fun part of the game possible. If ever anyone calls it "painful" or "tedious" or even "something to not look forward to" then that New Player Experience is fundamentally broken and needs fixing.

Having said that, repeating that experience before the much ballyhooed 'Tutorial' is in the game might not really add much value, as we would be pointlessly repeating an experience that new players wont even have.

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6 minutes ago, TheRealStupid said:

.....as we would be pointlessly repeating an experience that new players wont even have.

That was (part of) my point.  Testing a fresh start without vendors, currency, thralls, factories, discipline and vessel systems, etc. is just pointless.  You will not even be testing a fresh start.

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5 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

That was (part of) my point.  Testing a fresh start without vendors, currency, thralls, factories, discipline and vessel systems, etc. is just pointless.  You will not even be testing a fresh start.

You will be testing from a fresh start, by definition a full wipe is always a 'fresh start'  .. just not the start of the finished game. Huge difference at least for me. 

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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4 minutes ago, Anhrez said:

You will be testing from a fresh start, by definition a full wipe is always a 'fresh start'  .. just not the start of the finished game. Huge difference at least for me. 

Well yea...but is there a point in testing what a pre-alpha 5.4 "fresh start" is?  There is a huge amount of frustration caused by wipes (and inactivity before they happen).  So, we shouldn't just wipe for the hell of it.  If there was genuine value in testing a fresh start I would be all for it.  Obviously there is *some* value in doing a wipe and fresh start testing right now, not going to argue that.  However, with the frustration, irritation, and annoyance it will create for the vast majority of testers, it just doesn't seem worth it to me.  Obviously, I could be missing huge pieces of information that ACE has internally.

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The wipe is related to the huge change in gear that is happening. Yes, there are a lot of missing elements in the game, but with the changes to how stuff is created, they needed to get rid of the old stuff to see how the numbers look. 

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7 minutes ago, Spawl said:

The wipe is related to the huge change in gear that is happening. Yes, there are a lot of missing elements in the game, but with the changes to how stuff is created, they needed to get rid of the old stuff to see how the numbers look. 

I have to believe (for my sanity) that they have a way to get rid of those items in a targeted way.  Not having that seems like crazy talk to me.  But I have been surprised before....

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3 hours ago, srathor said:

Nuke it from orbit it is the only way to be sure about the starting portions of the game. 

Yes, and we should do that when more systems are in place.

Too many skill wipes would lead to burn out. And it would also give a false impression that the game doesn't work because some of the things that would make it work aren't there yet.


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We are going to see what interdependence/dependence really means with 5.4 it is not going to be pretty.

If you do not have a guild/insane number of alts behind you the total experience of the game is going to suck for you the individual.

Since guilds are not in and guild banks are not in should we just wait?

A Skill wipe will hurt the crafters the most. Combat won't even notice since they are going to be using basics.

We need a real test of the start of the game. End game can be tested with an addition of time on the test server then a wipe then add back the time was lost easily. What cannot be tested easily is a fresh start. It is going to SUCK and that is why it needs to be tested, to make sure it sucks less for new players during the soft release. Now is the time for this type of testing. Not later when more is on the line like the lifeblood of the game.

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If your goal is to prove that the fresh start experience sucks, I can see why you'd want to run that test as soon as possible, before additional systems are in place. Those systems might weaken your argument.


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Well yeah. Once more systems are in it will suck less. Maybe. 

It needs to be tested. Without the cheaty test crafting potions. 

Kinda like they got rid of the gathering potions.
Then made some changes to the tables because it truly sucked. (Addition of additional green end of node destruction roll on rank 5 or higher nodes. + Additional roll when 4 plentiful harvest or higher as well)
Then change the effect of a fairly early on skill to make the experience much better for a trained gatherer. (First node second page plentiful harvest addition in excavation and reaping) 

I of course still think they need a few more tweaks and will continue to try and bend the ear of people on those points.

We need more reps of the starter game with less bandaids so we can see where the bleeding is. This is a test. a Pre alpha test. This is the time to do it. 

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Not forgotten, I am hopeful that they will help bridge the gaps.

Most of yall just don't know what it is like.
Most of you are not crafters. 
Hell once the changes go in most of yall will never know what it is like.

If you really care go try and make an advanced 1 handed sword with no potions on live. A newb crafter with no skill and just learned the pattern will quit the game. 

You would have to spend time training crafting. 

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1 minute ago, srathor said:

If you really care go try and make an advanced 1 handed sword with no potions on live. A newb crafter with no skill and just learned the pattern will quit the game. 

I would recommend that noob use Basics first. And then Intermediates. Don't even try to make an Advanced weapon until you are less noob.

And when that noob is finally ready to graduate to Advanced he'll probably know the deal-- you'll need to make several to get one to come out right.


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Okay Spawl made a decent argument. 

He said that this can be a test of the second campaign. First campaign ends 2-3 months in. This 5.4 wipe is the start of the next campaign. We can test it as such. I can wrap my head around that. 

Though I do still think we need a test from jump. but I can get behind just a bank wipe.

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