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Zastier

What am I missing?

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The OP's point still stands though. It doesn't make sense to have the combat orientated people have fun and variety from day one and yet force the crafting orientated people to sit in a kind of limbo doing pretty much the same mediocre tasks over and over for pretty much the first 3 weeks of game. For Crowfall to be a success it has to offer the 'fun' factor across all aspects of its play styles from day 1


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58 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

The OP's point still stands though. It doesn't make sense to have the combat orientated people have fun and variety from day one and yet force the crafting orientated people to sit in a kind of limbo doing pretty much the same mediocre tasks over and over for pretty much the first 3 weeks of game. For Crowfall to be a success it has to offer the 'fun' factor across all aspects of its play styles from day 1

Exactly, and that is my concern. I have not had a chance of looking at intermediate gear since the update hit (am planning on dedicating some more time to the game later) but from what I recall from 5.3, it's just one set of items, a weapon for each class and 3 different armour types. And while that is fine, you can only make so many meaningful and interesting things out of that without running out of ways of experimenting. So question still stands, is there anything I am missing from the system? Or is this something that wasn't addressed by the developers yet? As a crafter, how much will I actually be able to do for the first month of gameplay? And on a larger scale, how many different items will be available to craft? And how much will the different combinations of metals and components effect the final item? 

15 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

May as well make it in your EK, and repeatable as many times as you like. 

Just litter all the starting stuff you need around the opening temple, and end with "how to place new parcels".

 

What I always figured is that the game would start by throwing you into an EK, and having you do some basic tasks. You know, craft some basic gear, combat to get some basic pieces, show you how to expand your EK, slowly expanding the scope of your tasks before throwing you into an actual campaign. Say, starting you off in an EK with some cave, you go and kill some monsters from said cave, and get given a mission to craft an item. Said item would be used to access campaigns. 

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When I started with Eve more than a decade ago, the New Player Expirence was “Don’t even undock while you skill for two weeks.”

 

Over the years that changed / improved to include 7-10 days worth of skills pre-trained on account creation and some excellent scripted activities that ease you into the game. 

What “I’m a crafter only” players are going to do the first couple weeks in game is going to depend largely on the people they play with. In anything resembling a functioning guild they can be crafting basic / intermediate items from resources turned over by harvesters. 

If they are on their own, it will be more limited. In my opinion that is how it should be. 

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2 hours ago, Badwolfe said:

The OP's point still stands though. It doesn't make sense to have the combat orientated people have fun and variety from day one and yet force the crafting orientated people to sit in a kind of limbo doing pretty much the same mediocre tasks over and over for pretty much the first 3 weeks of game. For Crowfall to be a success it has to offer the 'fun' factor across all aspects of its play styles from day 1

just how much variety will the combat players have from day one? no disciplines, nothing but basic vessels, so likely limited on what you can do with advantages/disadvantages as well due to that, and guess what all these things have to be "fixed" by crafters and gatherers.. The only variety combat players have is race/class combos, but likewise for intermediate crafting, crafters have different materials (that would pretty much be the combat players race/class), and at least some (even if limited) experimentation, so seems about equal on that point. And combat crafters are actually depend on the crafters and harvesters before they can get their variety.

(and yes I purposefully left out the "fun" part, for the very reason that it is a very subjective thing, what would be the msot fun in the entire world for one person, could be the most mind-numbing boring thing for another)

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3 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

just how much variety will the combat players have from day one? no disciplines, nothing but basic vessels, so likely limited on what you can do with advantages/disadvantages as well due to that, and guess what all these things have to be "fixed" by crafters and gatherers.. The only variety combat players have is race/class combos, but likewise for intermediate crafting, crafters have different materials (that would pretty much be the combat players race/class), and at least some (even if limited) experimentation, so seems about equal on that point. And combat crafters are actually depend on the crafters and harvesters before they can get their variety.

(and yes I purposefully left out the "fun" part, for the very reason that it is a very subjective thing, what would be the msot fun in the entire world for one person, could be the most mind-numbing boring thing for another)

Combat players will have variety to what they do in regards to PvP, attacking / defending forts, etc. None of this will be gear dependant at the beginning as everyone will be on a level pegging in this regard. You are mistakenly swapping fun / variety with skill upgrading. Even without any skills or discs you still have a variety of things you can do within the combat play style where as crafters have a much more limited scope as to what they can do for an extended period,

Imagine as a combat character if for the first 20 days of game all you could do was hit a fort wall with one skill and do nothing else apart from hit that wall. This is pretty much what crafting will offer at the moment though hopefully this will change as development continues

 


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21 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

Combat players will have variety to what they do in regards to PvP, attacking / defending forts, etc. None of this will be gear dependant at the beginning as everyone will be on a level pegging in this regard. You are mistakenly swapping fun / variety with skill upgrading. Even without any skills or discs you still have a variety of things you can do within the combat play style where as crafters have a much more limited scope as to what they can do for an extended period,

Imagine as a combat character if for the first 20 days of game all you could do was hit a fort wall with one skill and do nothing else apart from hit that wall. This is pretty much what crafting will offer at the moment though hopefully this will change as development continues

 

Sure combat guys have a couple fort they can hit, or open world battles they can fight, crafters have multiple recipes they can craft, with different kinds of resources. What else would you want as a crafter to do? I mean crafting is literally all they do, that is their playstyle. No I am not saying it is absolutely spot on perfect as it is right now (obviously I mean we do as a matter of fact know that crafting have only just got the start of the 2nd pass of their system implemented, but it also is not near as bad as you make it out to be

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25 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

Combat players will have variety to what they do in regards to PvP, attacking / defending forts, etc. None of this will be gear dependant at the beginning as everyone will be on a level pegging in this regard.

Even the Crafters and Harvesters will be on level pegging in that regard. They can participate in everything as well as any other starting player.

In the beginning we will be less specialized. We become more specialized with training. In the first few weeks of play I expect nobody will be as "dedicated" to a specific role as they will be once they have trained into a profession.

Just how "dedicated" a Crafter are we talking about in this thread? A Crafter who refuses to farm, fight, explore, and build forts? Even for just the first few weeks of the game?


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10 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

Sure combat guys have a couple fort they can hit, or open world battles they can fight, crafters have multiple recipes they can craft, with different kinds of resources. What else would you want as a crafter to do? I mean crafting is literally all they do, that is their playstyle. No I am not saying it is absolutely spot on perfect as it is right now (obviously I mean we do as a matter of fact know that crafting have only just got the start of the 2nd pass of their system implemented, but it also is not near as bad as you make it out to be

That's the whole point the OP is trying to make Gummiel - crafters don't have multiple recipes to do off the bat - they have to train an entire skill line just to unlock the profession they want and these skills are not necessarily the ones the crafter would wish to train first. For example why should a crafter have to unlock all the basic experimentation skills to unlock runemaking. These skills are not a logical progression into runemaking This training will take a number of days to complete. I think the best solution to this problem could be easily solved by reversing the current skill tree set ups. Have the craft skills selectable towards the start of the tree and have them independent of the crafting specialisation lines themselves. Rather like the mass production skill is.

Edited by Badwolfe
spelling as usual lol

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1 hour ago, Badwolfe said:

That's the whole point the OP is trying to make Gummiel - crafters don't have multiple recipes to do off the bat - they have to train an entire skill line just to unlock the profession they want and these skills are not necessarily the ones the crafter would wish to train first. For example why should a crafter have to unlock all the basic experimentation skills to unlock runemaking. These skills are not a logical progression into runemaking This training will take a number of days to complete. I think the best solution to this problem could be easily solved by reversing the current skill tree set ups. Have the craft skills selectable towards the start of the tree and have them independent of the crafting specialisation lines themselves. Rather like the mass production skill is.

But they do, they have all the intermediate one, which is almost as many as the advanced really, is a couple lacking, but those would be the ones the wouldn't be usable anyway before ppl get the disciplines for them (scimitar f.ex.) its not like they have an astronomical amount of extra recipes of advanced compared to intermediate

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what are the recipes crafters get access to first in the tree?  i've been ignoring it because I don't plan on crafting.

Day 1 through Week 2 what will the skill line look like and what recipes are opened?


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16 minutes ago, jetah said:

what are the recipes crafters get access to first in the tree?  i've been ignoring it because I don't plan on crafting.

Day 1 through Week 2 what will the skill line look like and what recipes are opened?

That system is too unfinished to say. Very few of the nodes that unlock recipes do anything yet.


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4 hours ago, Jah said:

Just how "dedicated" a Crafter are we talking about in this thread? A Crafter who refuses to farm, fight, explore, and build forts? Even for just the first few weeks of the game?

"Play how you want, be a crafting main...just do other stuff for the first few weeks!" - ACE

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1 minute ago, APE said:

"Play how you want, be a crafting main...just do other stuff for the first few weeks!" - ACE

Being a crafting main doesn't mean doing nothing else but crafting, especially before you have not yet specialized, and have the same skills as everyone else.


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Just now, Jah said:

Being a crafting main doesn't mean doing nothing else but crafting, especially before you have not yet specialized, and have the same skills as everyone else.

For some, being a X main actually means doing that all the time and nothing else or very little else. 

Hopefully ACE makes the system clear.

Played other games with the "do whatever you want" model and you can actually do that from day 1. However most are based on active progression so there is no time gating limiting progress or access.

As is, crafting is the most restrained by time IMO. Although I don't craft so my opinion isn't worth much.

If crafting is a backbone of other activities, it better well be engaging/entertaining from the start to keep people coming back or I'll have issues finding what I need to have a good time.

Combat is basically not limited at all, beyond more exciting builds. Gathering is more limited, but at least everything gathered has some use and for the most part gathering is what it is, bang on rocks, get rocks, repeat forever, these folks have already given up on life :ph34r:

Crafting seems to be the one that requires the heaviest initial time "investment" limiting what one can actually do in their preferred style of play. Sure they can make basic or even intermediate stuff, but that isn't likely what all crafters want to be doing for the first days/weeks of play.

Saying "suck it up, go kill people" is an option, but likely not the answer they want.

If I was only able to gather rocks for the first few days/weeks or only play one particular race/class, probably wouldn't install the game.

 

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5 minutes ago, APE said:

Played other games with the "do whatever you want" model and you can actually do that from day 1.

I guess I haven't. All the MMOs I've ever played involved ramping up to specialization. Typically everyone does some of the same basic stuff at the beginning. Can you give an example of a game that works that way?


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5 hours ago, Gummiel said:

Sure combat guys have a couple fort they can hit, or open world battles they can fight, crafters have multiple recipes they can craft, with different kinds of resources. What else would you want as a crafter to do? I mean crafting is literally all they do, that is their playstyle. No I am not saying it is absolutely spot on perfect as it is right now (obviously I mean we do as a matter of fact know that crafting have only just got the start of the 2nd pass of their system implemented, but it also is not near as bad as you make it out to be

I think what is getting lost here is that for the first 7.5 days on a crafter account, they literally do not have any crafting advantage over a combat player. Yes, they're training the basic crafting tree, but that doesn't unlock anything until they hit the 'advanced' crafting stage (at least not currently).

Also, many of the skill nodes in the basic tree don't even make them a better crafter. For example, I decided to go into Leatherworking and all of the skill nodes on the way to unlocking Leather give me "increased speed in basic crafting". Which is absolutely valueless. It doesn't allow me to make "better" gear, or even have a better chance at making intermediate gear. Joe CombatPlayer has the exact same odds and opportunities to make an intermediate weapon that I do... I can just do it one second faster.

The only nodes in the basic tree that actually DO anything are the ones that increase the chances of success in basic assembly. And once you train past those, you're literally only a few hours away from unlocking 'advanced' crafting. You never actually "need" the bonuses in Basic once you progress into 'real' crafting.

The system in it's current form is only working for dedicated crafting alt-accounts that log in to craft a few goods for their guild, and then log out to sit idle on the skill tree the other 90% of the time. Do any of the "big" guilds have crafter/players or are they all just crafterbot/accounts? That should be a big red flag right there.

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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

I guess I haven't. All the MMOs I've ever played involved ramping up to specialization. Typically everyone does some of the same basic stuff at the beginning. Can you give an example of a game that works that way?

Albion Online, Black Desert, EVE(?)

Most games have sort of a do the basics, learn the game, then advance. Be it a tutorial, first few levels/hours/days, etc.

Albion is pretty straight forward, get resources, craft. Keep doing so until you advance. Super grindy but no time gating or hoops to jump through.

BDO/EVE are different, but both appear more welcoming to those wanting to do a particular path sooner than later.

Wouldn't want to copy any of these games (maybe EVE), but as is, CF's initial progress needs adjustments. It isn't finished and as they said it will hopefully get faster.

However, I don't see the "need" to time gate specialized paths for crafting when it comes to crafting recipes. Seems to be the only line this happens.

There is very little specializing in this game. Crafting: Pick basics, train the basic spec node within, train the path of choice. That isn't very deep. Beyond that you just get better/faster/stronger for that one line.

IMO, expecting players to do something other than what they want just because, is not going to make people happy. Saying there are other things to do in the game is not the only answer. Speed up initial progression and or remove some of the just because training prior would also work as well.

As I said, I'm not a crafter so maybe I'm wrong or off, but that's what I see from the outside looking in and past experience.

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1 minute ago, TheRealStupid said:

The only nodes in the basic tree that actually DO anything are the ones that increase the chances of success in basic assembly. And once you train past those, you're literally only a few hours away from unlocking 'advanced' crafting. You never actually "need" the bonuses in Basic once you progress into 'real' crafting.

Actually, Experimentation and Experimentation Points are useful as well. They even have a (small) impact on Advanced Crafting.

And Crafting Speed will matter more when they slow down crafting times.


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4 hours ago, Gummiel said:

But they do, they have all the intermediate one, which is almost as many as the advanced really, is a couple lacking, but those would be the ones the wouldn't be usable anyway before ppl get the disciplines for them (scimitar f.ex.) its not like they have an astronomical amount of extra recipes of advanced compared to intermediate

Go check the runecrafting table without having unlocked runemaking - you have a grand total of 1 recipe :)


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