Tinnis

Should deaths in an eternal kingdom cause durability loss (both now and in the future)?

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If there are valuable resources to be gained from EKs then yes. If EKs are meant to be a lot more carefree and potentially arenas for fighting then no. It wouldn't hurt to have a location where fighting can be just that.

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My initial reaction was "no - there should not be durability loss in EK's".  New players can practice, guilds can train people, and people can have fun without the risk of losing stuff.  However, if we see an expansion of EK rules/functionality I can totally see a segment of the player-base becoming "EK only" players.  Play in CW to get the "best gear", PvP in EK's and never need new gear again.  Is that a bad thing?  I don't know.  If everyone does it, then yes.

That being said, I don't think that "yes - there should be durability loss in EK's" is the right answer either.  There are some significant differences between EK PvP and CW PvP that need to be understood.  In a CW dying stinks and should be avoided at all costs.  In contrast, an EK PvP brawl with 10v10 inside a small fort can be extremely fun and you would die and re-join the action continuously.  So, considering that, the "death penalty" may need to change depending on if you are in an EK or CW (or maybe even which CW rule-set you are in).

I guess for me it kind of depends on where EK's go.  They have the potential to become a breeding ground for sub-games (think DotA, minecraft, etc.).  Current implementation of EK's I think it would be fine.  If EK PvP becomes a viable and popular way to nearly exclusively play, then it might be a problem (as it would mess with the entire economic structure of the game).

A balanced approach would be to allow the creation of a durability free EK tournament charter.  Then everyone who joins would pay an "entry fee" to the organizer (to be used to offset the cost of creating/purchasing the charter).  Then for the next X hours/days, that EK would be durability free.  That seems like a fair middle ground to me.

Interesting topic to discuss.  Also, Blair mentioned that they have some news coming soon about new "death penalty" mechanics in 5.5.  I am curious to see how that will impact this topic.

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4 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

That being said, I don't think that "yes - there should be durability loss in EK's" is the right answer either.  There are some significant differences between EK PvP and CW PvP that need to be understood.  In a CW dying stinks and should be avoided at all costs.  In contrast, an EK PvP brawl with 10v10 inside a small fort can be extremely fun and you would die and re-join the action continuously.  So, considering that, the "death penalty" may need to change depending on if you are in an EK or CW (or maybe even which CW rule-set you are in).

Perhaps ONLY EK durability loss could be repaired. That way the player is still spending resources but not as if they were in a campaign and taking durability loss.

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2 minutes ago, KanashiGD said:

Perhaps ONLY EK durability loss could be repaired. That way the player is still spending resources but not as if they were in a campaign and taking durability loss.

That is another good idea.

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as an extention: what are do you think they should do with regards building "durability loss" for EKs as well if PvP and destruction are on as well?

Edited by Tinnis

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3 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

as an extention: what are do you think they should do with regards building "durability loss" for EKs as well if PvP and destruction are on as well?

Great additional consideration.

Probably too simple...but a per-parcel designation of "destructible or not" would be a good start.  I can also see, though, a need for a "map reset" in the event you have a siege map set up or whatever.  Once it is over, you just want to reset all buildings so you can start another "match".  Not sure how to handle that.

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On ‎05‎.‎02‎.‎2018 at 4:59 PM, Tinnis said:

Should deaths in an eternal kingdom cause durability loss (both now and in the future)?

 

On ‎05‎.‎02‎.‎2018 at 5:44 PM, Tinnis said:

as an extention: what are do you think they should do with regards building "durability loss" for EKs as well if PvP and destruction are on as well?

Again, thanks for bringing up the topic and involving the community into this kind of questions.

Personally i think that this question is more complicated than it might look like on the first view. It's not only touching EK's. EK's are not a standalone kind of thing. Besides their very own reason for being, they are also meant to close specific holes, like the recently mentioned duelling. 

The pure "principle" of durability loss will be applied to EK's. At least regarding buildings (maintenance cost). ;) Durability loss on death means that PvP would have to be activated. If this would be always the case ... why should people use the EK's to (for example) duel each other? Sure, they could use the campaigns, to do so. But usually friends would fight in the same group/guild/faction. EK's could provide a place to duel each other anyways. But why would they do so, test their skills, settings, builds, equipment, if they may loose it by doing so? Doesn't really make sense. And Crowfall has shown that it is more about providing opportunities.

So i could imagine that durability loss would just be a sub-setting of the PvP-setting that could be de-/activated by the monarch. And if not - it probably would be better (provide more/additional opportunities to the players) to turn off PvP durability loss in EK's generally. Until there has been enough time to build a better sub-system for EK's.

 

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Honestly I think as many game rules as possible should be determined by those with administration control over the parcel in question. The point of EKs is to have detailed personal control over the server environment, and the only expressed limitations are that the EKs themselves can not source materials other than t1s or otherwise offer superior services to campaign worlds.

The function of durability and item decay is a gameplay mechanism intended to create entropy and need for resources in campaign worlds. The function of EKs is ALSO to create entropy, away from the campaign worlds, in the form of resources used for parcel, building, and (eventually) relic crafting. Forcing decay rules in the EK is about as pointless as forcing pvp. They're bottle dimensions with very limited functional overlap intended to be whatever the owners want them to be, and that should extend to a consequence free dueling arena to test theorycrafted gear without wasting materials if the users so choose.

People really need to get this idea of implicitly gamifying EKs out of their heads. The entire point of EKs is that they're the one place in the game that isn't implicitly gamified beyond their interaction with the relic system. And the relic system itself isn't even a mechanism to gamify the EK as much as a mechanism to further gamify CWs.

Users should be able to CHOOSE to gamify them to the degree they want to, or circumvent the normal rules as fits personal preference, provided that those rules can not upset the economic balance of CWs. Letting people die a million times without durability or loot loss in the EKs does not in any way impact the economics of the CWs and thus should be a player choice just like turning pvp on and off.

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My impression of EKs is that they are the next evolution in player housing and ePeen decorative display, with the added utility of trans-campaign staging area for guilds. With that in mind, it's definitely a safe zone and the answer is a hard No. However, if there were activities available within an EK that could provide resources and play experience very similar to that of a campaign, then it ought to be a soft Yes within those activities.

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On 2/5/2018 at 10:35 AM, Kirchhoff said:

If EK PvP becomes a viable and popular way to nearly exclusively play, then it might be a problem (as it would mess with the entire economic structure of the game).

Not true bud. Spending all your time in an EK is perfectly fine and there's no reason why the player should have to enter the CW to replace broken gear. He's literally just trying to have his own sandboxish fun in an EK and he won't effect the lives of those in the CW other than the effect of his absence.

If you want to ask yourself what about the player who trains in the EK then enters the CW with his greater knowledge of combat- That's fine too. Let people train without durability loss if the function already exists in the game to do so. Not every game allows you to train without costs associated with them and that is usually because the implementation of said thing would cost development dollars. In crowfall, the functionality is already there, people want it, and there is no reason to take it a way. Well, maybe there is a reason to take it away, but it would take a cold brutal heart to do so.

Edited by touchmybow

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On 2/10/2018 at 6:28 PM, touchmybow said:

Not true bud. Spending all your time in an EK is perfectly fine and there's no reason why the player should have to enter the CW to replace broken gear. He's literally just trying to have his own sandboxish fun in an EK and he won't effect the lives of those in the CW other than the effect of his absence.

If you want to ask yourself what about the player who trains in the EK then enters the CW with his greater knowledge of combat- That's fine too. Let people train without durability loss if the function already exists in the game to do so. Not every game allows you to train without costs associated with them and that is usually because the implementation of said thing would cost development dollars. In crowfall, the functionality is already there, people want it, and there is no reason to take it a way. Well, maybe there is a reason to take it away, but it would take a cold brutal heart to do so.

I get your point, but I don't think you understand the extreme I was talking about.  If only 10% of players were "EK only" then, yea, no durability loss is not a problem.  However, when that changes to 50% or more, it literally breaks the game.  Suddenly gathering and crafting become progressively obsolete.  No one will even care about anything except for orange gear.  I think that (eventually) leads to a "dead game".

I am not saying that no durability loss in EK's would be a problem, I am saying it could be a problem.  Ultimately, I would like to see how everything feels with non-bugged durability loss on death before anything was done specifically for EK's.

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On 2/12/2018 at 8:17 AM, Kirchhoff said:

I get your point, but I don't think you understand the extreme I was talking about.  If only 10% of players were "EK only" then, yea, no durability loss is not a problem.  However, when that changes to 50% or more, it literally breaks the game.  Suddenly gathering and crafting become progressively obsolete.  No one will even care about anything except for orange gear.  I think that (eventually) leads to a "dead game".

I am not saying that no durability loss in EK's would be a problem, I am saying it could be a problem.  Ultimately, I would like to see how everything feels with non-bugged durability loss on death before anything was done specifically for EK's.

I can not realistically see a world in which this happens simply because there's not potential to GAIN anything by staying in an EK that doesn't also require one or more other plaayers to actually leave.

You can't farm anything there. You can't kill anyone for loot because everyone with loot is in a pvp disabled area because people aren't stupid. No matter how advanced the EKs become, literally everything in every EK is a tightly controlled "practice mode" because they're designed specifically to lack the major drivers for play, those drivers being competition over loot and winning that ability to take it back to YOUR EK.

Even if mobs are added they'd drop the worst made socks t1 leather imaginable. Not to mention the owner gets to decide who comes in and who leaves. There is literally no compelling reason for a large portion of the population to stay in EKs long term that does not require constant interaction with campaign worlds. The only conceivable profession that could play the game this way is the crafter, and the crafter won't accept stacks of knotwood and slag for items made with even low tier nonbasic materials.

What exactly are these guys in suits of legendary armor and weapons going to do once they go "perma EK"? Chop knotwood trees? Politely ask other people to... let them steal their stuff? Trade for equipment they don't need?

Loot is progression in crowfall, and there isn't any loot in the EKs aside from what other people are literally willing to GIVE you. PvP doesn't exist in EKs unless someone is willing to LET you do it. They're never going to kill campaigns for that reason alone. People don't install a PvP-centric loot heavy MMO to stop PvPing over loot, and people don't build super legendary sets of murder armor unless they plan to use them to murder people. Asking someone to turn on PvP and to please leave it on even if you constantly kill them while they're trying to craft isn't really the core experience anyone is coming to the game for.

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9 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

What exactly are these guys in suits of legendary armor and weapons going to do once they go "perma EK"? Chop knotwood trees? Politely ask other people to... let them steal their stuff? Trade for equipment they don't need?

PvP....

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On 2/12/2018 at 7:17 AM, Kirchhoff said:

I get your point, but I don't think you understand the extreme I was talking about.  If only 10% of players were "EK only" then, yea, no durability loss is not a problem.  However, when that changes to 50% or more, it literally breaks the game.  Suddenly gathering and crafting become progressively obsolete.  No one will even care about anything except for orange gear.  I think that (eventually) leads to a "dead game".

I am not saying that no durability loss in EK's would be a problem, I am saying it could be a problem.  Ultimately, I would like to see how everything feels with non-bugged durability loss on death before anything was done specifically for EK's.

I think tourneys and dueling will be very popular in CF. But these are going to be players that are very competitive and very invested in being their best, and they will most likely be equally competitive in nature in the CW as well, simply because it fits their playstyle of competitive PvP. Also, a lot of tourneys will be gear capped, so it really seems like a non-issue.

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16 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

And what will they be fighting over?

Given the current state of the game and specifically the implementation of EK's, we don't know.  Ultimately, however, people will fight in competitive PvP for bragging rights and being on the top of a leader board.

At the start of this thread I compared the potential EK's have with Minecraft servers and the creativity that led to DotA.  Use your imagination.  People could be fighting over any number of things if EK's even get close to the examples I cited (although best case scenario puts that years out).

Again, this goes back to the word could.  If there is no leader board, if there is no EK PvP community, if there is no EK customization/MOD's, if there is nothing to fight over, then of course no one will do it.  Are you asking me to justify, beyond the shadow of a doubt, with specific details and cited sources, based on the current implementation of the game, why there would be "EK only players"?  That is not the point and that discussion is useless.

It is simple, if "EK only PvP" becomes a widespread thing, then no durability loss will break the game.  Plain and simple.  You can argue all you want about whether or not that situation will ever come about, but it does not change my statement.

I think the horse is dead.

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21 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

Given the current state of the game and specifically the implementation of EK's, we don't know.  Ultimately, however, people will fight in competitive PvP for bragging rights and being on the top of a leader board.

At the start of this thread I compared the potential EK's have with Minecraft servers and the creativity that led to DotA.  Use your imagination.  People could be fighting over any number of things if EK's even get close to the examples I cited (although best case scenario puts that years out).

Again, this goes back to the word could.  If there is no leader board, if there is no EK PvP community, if there is no EK customization/MOD's, if there is nothing to fight over, then of course no one will do it.  Are you asking me to justify, beyond the shadow of a doubt, with specific details and cited sources, based on the current implementation of the game, why there would be "EK only players"?  That is not the point and that discussion is useless.

It is simple, if "EK only PvP" becomes a widespread thing, then no durability loss will break the game.  Plain and simple.  You can argue all you want about whether or not that situation will ever come about, but it does not change my statement.

I think the horse is dead.

The game isn't and never really was designed to foster and EK PvP community. EK leaderboards are not the focus of the game. Campaign leaderboards, and the loot gained from successfully winning those campaigns is. For those reasons, specifically, I can not see any possibility of a future in which EK only PvP becomes a widespread thing. What's possible with minecraft servers and what led to Dota are the ability for people to literally mod the game, enforce new rules, and create new resource systems and gameplay limitations. None of that has ever been within the scope of EKs. Eks are now and have always been intended to be literally neutered versions of campaign worlds used for housing, trade, and persistance.

There is no EK SDK. There's no sideloader for custom code injections. There's no moddability. This future where EKs eclipse the actual game you're worried about is one that ACE has repeatedly and specifically said multiple times they actively design away from.

You're worried about player organized consensual PvP taking over a game that is designed and advertised as a lack of consensual PvP. You're worried about EVE online turning in to nothing but hisec dueling. You are worried about a thing that will literally never happen. I'm saying you're pointing at a very shaky possible future for a "what if" scenario that is about as likely as the moon turning to cheese and that there doesn't seem to be much point worrying about it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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15 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

The game isn't and never really was designed to foster and EK PvP community. EK leaderboards are not the focus of the game. Campaign leaderboards, and the loot gained from successfully winning those campaigns is. For those reasons, specifically, I can not see any possibility of a future in which EK only PvP becomes a widespread thing. What's possible with minecraft servers and what led to Dota are the ability for people to literally mod the game, enforce new rules, and create new resource systems and gameplay limitations. None of that has ever been within the scope of EKs. Eks are now and have always been intended to be literally neutered versions of campaign worlds used for housing, trade, and persistance.

There is no EK SDK. There's no sideloader for custom code injections. There's no moddability. This future where EKs eclipse the actual game you're worried about is one that ACE has repeatedly and specifically said multiple times they actively design away from.

You're worried about player organized consensual PvP taking over a game that is designed and advertised as a lack of consensual PvP. You're worried about EVE online turning in to nothing but hisec dueling. You are worried about a thing that will literally never happen. I'm saying you're pointing at a very shaky possible future for a "what if" scenario that is about as likely as the moon turning to cheese and that there doesn't seem to be much point worrying about it.

We certainly disagree on it being even possible, which is fine.  You seem to have insight in to how the Developers view EK's (I do not), so perhaps you are right.

In any case, it is not something I am worried about.  It is not something I think will happen.  It is hypothetical.  I brought it up because, for me, it was the only big reason having no durability loss in EK's would be a problem.  If that situation never exists, then it is a non issue.  I was never arguing about how feasible, likely, or practical it was.

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