Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ACE_JackalBark

ACE Q&A for February - Official Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

It was a great Q&A. Despite Todd mentioning his Big Tracking Ideas without elaborating.

8 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I read the lore @jtoddcoleman:unsure:

Maeve really appeals to my inner Krakken.

I'm the other guy that reads the lore. I think Maeve is the best too! *highfive*

Although I don't even care about the nautical theme, it's more for the "goddess of war, best 1v1, fite me irl" part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great Q&A, can't wait to have more info on tracking, keep up the good work.

Forward out of the darkness, leave behind the night, forward out of error into light !


The best skill at cards is knowing when to discard.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm loving the game getting wider and more fleshed out, but I've gotta say I'm still really worried about advances in combat and control responsiveness.  

I've been doing a lot more playtesting since 5.3 and now 5.4 came out and whilst I know some issues are down to spiky msg ms, Crowfall is still lacking when it comes to feeling connected with my character. Leaps and dispositions still feel very rough around the edges, especially observing other people executing these skills as they stutter-fly through the air, and combat just doesn't look impactful enough yet, this effect is magnified in melee where you see everything up close.  

I remember our chats at gamescom that this was going to be an ongoing cycle of improvement and changes etc and I'm just wondering when we might see more of these upgrades coming our way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shadowbane’s lore was the best in any game.

 

I hope Crowfall’s is comparable.

I actually wrote a fanfiction piece to earn my beta slot back in the day .

We definitely need guild mechanics and a guild bank asap ( right after you fix the lag)

Now that crafters really are interdependent it’s really difficult to constantly trade back and forth.( especially with the current trade mechanic.)


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, AyeCo said:

I'm loving the game getting wider and more fleshed out, but I've gotta say I'm still really worried about advances in combat and control responsiveness.  

I've been doing a lot more playtesting since 5.3 and now 5.4 came out and whilst I know some issues are down to spiky msg ms, Crowfall is still lacking when it comes to feeling connected with my character. Leaps and dispositions still feel very rough around the edges, especially observing other people executing these skills as they stutter-fly through the air, and combat just doesn't look impactful enough yet, this effect is magnified in melee where you see everything up close.  

I remember our chats at gamescom that this was going to be an ongoing cycle of improvement and changes etc and I'm just wondering when we might see more of these upgrades coming our way?

Every update we add something towards making everything aspect of the movement system better, including how you view other players as they move through the world 5.5 has some very low level changes to the movement code which I am hoping will move the needle quite a bit.

That being said there are avenues of making combat feel more impactful that are forever walled off from us because we chose to remove rooted attacks/root motion and let players WASD move and attack at the same time.(Action games typically bake the movement into the attacks) In game development for every decision we make to make a particular feature work, there is always consequences. (For example we chose to target based on where the reticle is pointing, because of this many options that are normally available to games that use a free-mouse are unavailable.) Now, there are a few tricks we can do to make impacts feel good, however they will never feel just like Monster Hunter or BDO which primarily use root motion on every attack.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Every update we add something towards making everything aspect of the movement system better, including how you view other players as they move through the world 5.5 has some very low level changes to the movement code which I am hoping will move the needle quite a bit.

That being said there are avenues of making combat feel more impactful that are forever walled off from us because we chose to remove rooted attacks/root motion and let players WASD move and attack at the same time.(Action games typically bake the movement into the attacks) In game development for every decision we make to make a particular feature work, there is always consequences. (For example we chose to target based on where the reticle is pointing, because of this many options that are normally available to games that use a free-mouse are unavailable.) Now, there are a few tricks we can do to make impacts feel good, however they will never feel just like Monster Hunter or BDO which primarily use root motion on every attack.

Impactful is definitely one of the aspects I meant to express in my post, and understand that for combat to be fluid we can't have the feel of something like MHW or Dauntless. It's hard to describe these things without visual comparisons, but my frame of reference is definitely more along the lines of Wildstar, which had fluid action combat, similar to CF's (ofc with telegraphs instead of real aiming) but as a player I definitely felt like control of my character was more responsive.

I'll try to put together some videos when I'm back off hols to highlight what I'm talking about at little better, but I'm aware this isn't something that gets "fixed" in a single sprint or even numerous sprints and on top of that, what I'm alluding to isn't merely a single problems, it's impact, it's responsiveness, it's terrain collision handling, and many others. However, Crowfall is going to live or die on the quality of it's combat, which is why I'm worried right now.

Edited by AyeCo
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6.2.2018 at 6:19 PM, Zybak said:

Beheading mechanic hype! I have a feeling this will be some sort of mechanic to delay a respawn or change where someone spawns? 

i think beheading will instantly kill a downed player that would otherwise revive by himself.

just my guess


 

Crowfall Wiki

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

Every update we add something towards making everything aspect of the movement system better, including how you view other players as they move through the world 5.5 has some very low level changes to the movement code which I am hoping will move the needle quite a bit.

That being said there are avenues of making combat feel more impactful that are forever walled off from us because we chose to remove rooted attacks/root motion and let players WASD move and attack at the same time.(Action games typically bake the movement into the attacks) In game development for every decision we make to make a particular feature work, there is always consequences. (For example we chose to target based on where the reticle is pointing, because of this many options that are normally available to games that use a free-mouse are unavailable.) Now, there are a few tricks we can do to make impacts feel good, however they will never feel just like Monster Hunter or BDO which primarily use root motion on every attack.

Right, but those games also have a much lower time to kill which is just as important in making combat movement feel impactful. Left-Click attacks in Crowfall feel more like "auto-attacks" in any other MMO than regular attacks in an action game. For the root motion stuff to work and feel good, you'd need a very different damage model and probably fewer powers and power types. 

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Every update we add something towards making everything aspect of the movement system better, including how you view other players as they move through the world 5.5 has some very low level changes to the movement code which I am hoping will move the needle quite a bit.

That being said there are avenues of making combat feel more impactful that are forever walled off from us because we chose to remove rooted attacks/root motion and let players WASD move and attack at the same time.(Action games typically bake the movement into the attacks) In game development for every decision we make to make a particular feature work, there is always consequences. (For example we chose to target based on where the reticle is pointing, because of this many options that are normally available to games that use a free-mouse are unavailable.) Now, there are a few tricks we can do to make impacts feel good, however they will never feel just like Monster Hunter or BDO which primarily use root motion on every attack.

Disclaimer: I'm completely aware that time, resources, and engine are big contributors to how difficult it is to build something into a game.

I'm not sure what you mean by impactful combat being walled off because attacks are not rooted. That is a choice in combat design not necessarily something that can't coexist. If you tell the community "this direction makes adding features more difficult and out of scope" then I would completely understand.

Tera and Monster hunter do have their animations baked in but the hit boxes can still be disconnected from the animation. Just as an example, fighting games generally have animations that look cool and flashy but the combat is just a bunch of boxes. Just an example for everyone, some of the most complex hitboxes are not even connected to a models animation just the scene actor. This video can show you this disassociation, and how animation does not need to associated with the actual attack. But MMOs generally wont have the precision of a fighting game for obvious technical reasons.

With that in mind I'm not understanding why you can't have hit scan, projectile, and even tab targeted attacks. What I do understand is that it can be difficult to build each of these separately and try to maintain cohesion. Ideally you can make use of 2-3 hitboxes to get a solid feel. You can use traces along two stationary coordinates to follow an animation if you needed it to. Ideally you would be able to have an attack animation, and the hit box is in the area of the attack without wasting resources on actually 1 for 1 creating the attack.

Below is a quick video I recorded of GW2. I'm not showing this because you should "make gw2 combat". Rather I'm posting it to show the principles from having WASD movement and solid action combat is not segregated. In fact GW2 has tab target attacks and action target attacks. Personally I don't think Crowfall needs tab target and can maintain the current action based combat. I do believe you guys can pull off some amazing combat that feels impactful.

It will come down to movement speed (increase/decrease at key moments), animation speed (to sell movement and overall game feel), and hit boxes.

One last video example: This is a project I worked on in the last 3 months of my Masters program. This is using Unreal 4, but the same concepts apply. We have network play (as shown in the test footage) and we use various ranged, melee, and aoe ground attacks. It was not easy and it was difficult for the programmers due to net code but we got it! I assume net code is going to be the most complex aspect of combat because you guys want to have a lot of people on screen.

I know you guys can get it, I know you guys can make a great ass combat system. Don't focus on what "other games" feel like so much that it becomes a detriment, focus on what you want CROWFALL to feel like. @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman You have a passionate community behind you, based on my talks with them while we play, they believe you can do it. 

Edited by KanashiGD

Game Designer | KanashiGD.com | @KanashiGD

Elf of Hy'shen Avari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KanashiGD said:

Disclaimer: I'm completely aware that time, resources, and engine are big contributors to how difficult it is to build something into a game.

I'm not sure what you mean by impactful combat being walled off because attacks are not rooted. That is a choice in combat design not necessarily something that can't coexist. If you tell the community "this direction makes adding features more difficult and out of scope" then I would completely understand.

Tera and Monster hunter do have their animations baked in but the hit boxes can still be disconnected from the animation. Just as an example, fighting games generally have animations that look cool and flashy but any combat is just a bunch of boxes. Just an example for everyone, some of the most complex hitboxes are not even connected to a model just the scene actor. This video can show you this disassociation, and how animation does not need to associated with the actual attack.

With that in mind I'm not understanding why you can't have hit scan, projectile, and even tab targeted attacks. What I do understand is that it can be difficult to built each of those separately and try to maintain cohesion. Ideally you can make use of 2-3 hitboxes to get a solid feel. You can use traces along two stationary coordinates to follow an animation if you needed it to. Ideally you would be able to have an attack animation, and the hit box is in the area of the attack without wasting resources on actually 1 for 1 creating the attack.

Below is a quick video I recorded of GW2. I'm not showing this because you should "make gw2 combat". Rather I'm posting it to show the principles from having WASD movement and solid action combat is not segregated. In fact GW2 has tab target attacks and action target attacks. Personally I don't think Crowfall needs tab target and can maintain the current action based combat. I do believe you guys can pull off some amazing combat that feels impactful.

It will come down to movement speed (increase/decrease at key moments), animation speed (to sell movement and overall game feel), and hit boxes.

One last video example: This is a project I worked on in the last 3 months of my Masters program. This is using Unreal 4, but the same concepts apply. We have network play (as shown in the test footage) and we use various ranged, melee, and aoe ground attacks. It was not easy and it was difficult for the programmers due to net code but we got it! I assume net code is going to be the most complex aspect of combat because you guys want to have a lot of people on screen.

 

I am using the literal of impactful as applied to when one character hits another and it feels good. I think you were referring to the term impactful as a generalization applied to the entirety of combat. Mine being "it feels good to hit another character" vs yours "combat feels meaningful overall".

Thank you for the video feedback, especially sharing your own project. Most people will never understand or care how difficult game creation can be. At least you walked a few steps. The pressure and difficulty only scales up as funding and audience expectations rise.

Fighting games are great and feel great. That many colliders and hit boxes is right out of the window for any networked game of scale. As a rule we look to cut out as many detection checks like that as we can simply because the what the server says must always be right! For the server to be right all the time it needs to be asked questions nonstop, and because asking a question, thinking and processing that question, and answering that question can take anywhere from 50ms-300ms.(based on any players internet) Which means everyone is always slightly out of sync. So we fake much of it, or try and predict, or some games even (shudder) trust the client. Yes there have been MMO's who launched and they trusted the client to provide them with correct damage and health manipulation much to their woe. This happened as recently as 2 years ago.

Anyways since every other player you are looking at it always slightly ahead of where there are on the server, you don't need the precision resolution that multiple hit boxes and colliders would provide. 90% of the time you would think you hit a target on the arm on your client only to have missed on the server because that player who you though you hit on the arm was 3m to the left of where you saw him represented on your client. This is why in the MMO space you usually see 1 universal server pill that represents all races of characters. To do otherwise is adding an incredible amount of work on the server and the client for very little return. I will caveat this with "countries with 5-15ms server roundtrip times. Developers can build games differently when you have near instantaneous response from the server "ie look at the South Korean fighting MMO's.

The GW2 range example just shows a hit flash, an additive hit animation, and sync'd sound. We have all those pieces, but those are salt and pepper ingredients. (I would also put hit pause, screen shake, directional shakes/weapon trails into that salt and pepper ingredient) Salt and Pepper is important, hell you can make a great steak with just salt and pepper! But your base is a steak, and not pasta. That is the core of what I was saying before, you can add salt and pepper to anything but the core of the meal; How you Target (Tabbed, Aim, Aoe) how you move (Free Move, Root Motion) how you animate (Split Body, Locked) THOSE core portions of the meal tend to shut down possibilities. Well why not do both??!! Yes Surf and Turf is a great meal, but I have never had Surf and Turf where both the steak and the seafood were equally as good, and the price is always 3x.

Things tend to fall apart at scale. Just imagine trying to cram 100 people into your level. Not only does netcode fall apart rapidly, or the server start lagging causing people to warp, combat that was fun for 4 players falls apart, the environment no longer works because it is too tight with that many people in there, etc.

I've linked this video a few times before. It is a few years old but always a good watch. (no video is perfect, but he nails many of the mains points as to what makes action combat feel good)
 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It occurred to me that maybe the reason they have gigantic monsters in Tera is so you don’t go sliding passed them like we do with root motion abilities in Crowfall. There still are a few abilities with root motion in Crowfall and they still don’t work right. See Colossus Smash Bug Report below (which btw is still in game as of last night).

Could it have worked? Yes. Did it ever work? No. It seems like that type of combat is more difficult to make work correctly and ACE has limited resources. 

I think Crowfall combat is very solid currently and with slight tweaks (find a way for tighter aiming) could be great.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

I just want Gaea's Wail to bloody work. I mean, why is that so hard? You're breaking my heart Crowfall! :(

@thomasblair / @mhalashace please bury the final corpse of projectiles.

turn gaea's wail into a functional copy of a bow power. slow mobility while moving. a charged time up then a raycast delivery chain of the DD and DoT

and like many base powers a revesion of the cooldown increase (to old 10 from current 24) would be nice as well...

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It occurred to me that maybe the reason they have gigantic monsters in Tera is so you don’t go sliding passed them like we do with root motion abilities in Crowfall. There still are a few abilities with root motion in Crowfall and they still don’t work right. See Colossus Smash Bug Report below (which btw is still in game as of last night).

Could it have worked? Yes. Did it ever work? No. It seems like that type of combat is more difficult to make work correctly and ACE has limited resources. 

I think Crowfall combat is very solid currently and with slight tweaks (find a way for tighter aiming) could be great.

 

Speaking of such bugs (I haven't played for a few months) did the rend bugs ever get fixed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...