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ACE_JackalBark

Exploring the Crypt - Official Discussion Thread

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Cross Worlding - Mentioned no advancement (assume Vessel lvls) and import/export restrictions, but what about swarming campaigns or the dirty word, zerging?

If we can relatively easily cross into campaigns, even with just a vessel and maybe limited supplies, couldn't we potentially throw any competitiveness that had been going on by the population, out the window? "We are losing guys, bring another 50 players asap!" Do what is needed then skip back to the previous campaign.

Campaign Victory - As above, if winning is reliant more on group efforts, wouldn't it benefit teams to swarm campaign after campaign during key moments. Siege, initial resource gathering and POI capture, during whatever particular event (Bloodstone capture).

Campaign Rewards - How would these be given out, be it faction, GvG, Dregs? Time played during campaign, accomplishments during that time? What's to stop a bunch of people from joining a winning faction right before the timer or win condition is achieved?

Banks - From the 4 Vessel example, looks like we might have a shared Spirit Bank? What about non-character based inventories in the world, be it current or future forms.

Naming - Will there be any accountability such as a way to see account/forum name?

Guild/Allegiance - Similar to naming, will we be tied to a team or free to have 9 different affiliations?

Vessel decay?

Advantages/Disadvantages update?

----

I've been curious how playing in multiple campaigns would work as almost nothing has been said about it from ACE beyond we could do so... Sure much is still on the white board, but see lots of room for abuse er I mean creatively utilizing mechanics in place to allow numbers a greater advantage than they already have by default.

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Character deletion will be one vessel sink, but a very minor one. People tend to stick to their characters. Necromancy is not a profession that is viable with the redesign if there is no proper sink. That said, I like that the character slots are back. The hybrid system between vessels and characters has some design flaws still though. That needs looking into.


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1 hour ago, Jah said:

I doubt it would be a limited time thing. There is no reason to prevent people from buying those slots.

 

I'm sure character slots will be in the store - they may or may not be priced at $25.  Or $25 worth of crowns.  I want the option to trade back in some VIP for character slots at the old rate, which would essentially be a REDO! and then I don't have to worry if they raise the pricing.  But that requires the enabling of at least VIP redemptions which may or may not be enabled at any particular time (it is not currently).

Edited by ren

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45 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Also, if vessels don't decay... do Disciplines? Since Disciplines are tied to vessels the idea was that you'd need to get new ones when your vessel eventually decayed. That could mess up discipline crafting as well.

Before this change, disciplines did not decay. I assume that is still true. The sink for disciplines was that you have to destroy them to change them.

Regarding necromancy, they could still have vessels decay and give necromancers a "repair" ability, or a recipe to craft something that players can use to repair their vessels themselves. When a vessel decays to 0, it isn't destroyed, but it also isn't usable until it's repaired.

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1 minute ago, Arkade said:

Before this change, disciplines did not decay. I assume that is still true. The sink for disciplines was that you have to destroy them to change them.

Regarding necromancy, they could still have vessels decay and give necromancers a "repair" ability, or a recipe to craft something that players can use to repair their vessels themselves. When a vessel decays to 0, it isn't destroyed, but it also isn't usable until it's repaired.

Straight from the FAQ:

IF MY VESSEL IS DESTROYED, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE DISCIPLINE RUNESTONES THAT WERE APPLIED TO IT?

If you allow your vessel to be destroyed, you will lose any applied discipline runestones. (On a good note, this will keep our runecrafters in high demand!)

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/crows-and-vessels/

They specifically mention that disciplines being destroyed with a vessel is part of keeping runecrafters in high demand.


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3 hours ago, blazzen said:

Please give us crypts in player cities.

The more tedious you make swapping characters/vessels the less valuable being able to train multiple races/classes with VIP will be and the more convenient it will be to just have alt accounts to swap characters/vessels. 

 

 

Yeah, I'm wondering if the Crypt will be a wilderness PoI or something built into town/city/keep parcels? I'd like to see a crypt or graveyard building you can put in your stronghold, allowing players to swap characters in safety, nearby their crafting tables and gear/resource storage. Sure, there should be some wilderness crypts for people who aren't in guild or near a stronghold, but the idea of having to travel away from your storage and crafting tables to swap characters seems really tedious.


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9 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Straight from the FAQ:

IF MY VESSEL IS DESTROYED, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE DISCIPLINE RUNESTONES THAT WERE APPLIED TO IT?

If you allow your vessel to be destroyed, you will lose any applied discipline runestones. (On a good note, this will keep our runecrafters in high demand!)

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/crows-and-vessels/

They specifically mention that disciplines being destroyed with a vessel is part of keeping runecrafters in high demand.

 

Breaking your weapon on death would keep the weapon crafters in high demand.  But considering the cost in materials/time to craft a high quality weapon, that isn't such a good idea.  Hence durability.

I wonder a similar approach will become relevant for disciplines once the rarity of related crafting mats are established.


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1 minute ago, ren said:

 

Breaking your weapon on death would keep the weapon crafters in high demand.  But considering the cost in materials/time to craft a high quality weapon, that isn't such a good idea.  Hence durability.

I wonder a similar approach will become relevant for disciplines once the rarity of related crafting mats are established.

No one said they should break on death. They were tied to vessels and part of that was vessels being destroyed and needing to be replaced, which also meant that disciplines being replaced. A big part of the itemization is items decaying and needing to be replaced to keep crafters in demand.

It's unclear right now what the plan is for vessels and disciplines are in terms of being destroyed and replaced, though. It's heavily implied that vessels will no longer decay/be destroyed but there was no mention of what happens then to Necromancy and Runecrafting to keep them relevant and in demand since the primary sinks for those are gone.

I trust ACE enough to think that they've considered all of that. I'm just curious as to what the solution they've come up with is (or if they've decided it's fine and the reasoning why).


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1 hour ago, Svenn said:

Straight from the FAQ:

 

57 minutes ago, Svenn said:

No one said they should break on death. They were tied to vessels and part of that was vessels being destroyed and needing to be replaced, which also meant that disciplines being replaced. A big part of the itemization is items decaying and needing to be replaced to keep crafters in demand.

It's unclear right now what the plan is for vessels and disciplines are in terms of being destroyed and replaced, though. It's heavily implied that vessels will no longer decay/be destroyed but there was no mention of what happens then to Necromancy and Runecrafting to keep them relevant and in demand since the primary sinks for those are gone.

I trust ACE enough to think that they've considered all of that. I'm just curious as to what the solution they've come up with is (or if they've decided it's fine and the reasoning why).

Right above that FAQ point you quoted it mentions disciplines allowing us to repair and strip Vessels for parts. Until the FAQ is updated, I don't really look to it as a fully reliable source of info.

Regardless of Vessels being permanent or decaying and going poof eventually, Disciplines don't have to be tied to them unless there is some technical reasoning.

Disciplines could decay and be lost over time needing to be replaced. Allowing Runemakers to repair them at a heavy cost could also be an options. Same goes for anything. If someone wants to keep/repair an item, allow crafters of that type to do so. Maybe don't attach it to a crafting table or location so it could be done on the fly but again with an extra cost attached. So if in a town or whatever, get a new one. If out and about, repair.

Vessels could also still decay over time and on death now that they have levels. Decay to 0? Go back to lvl 1 and possibly lose attached Runes. Either have to re-level or just get it repaired by a Necro (again at a heavy cost) to re-gain levels. Similar option of out in the wild vs needing a crafting station or particular crafting requirements.

All of this seems rather basic for MMOs and would go well with decay, loss, upkeep, time/item sinks, etc. Necros and Runemakers would actually be more in-demand as it wouldn't be make X and be done until they need a new one. Repairing between would be another option.

At the end of the day, ACE has to decide how much death and destruction will be in the game or not. Can't have a healthy player driven economy and items that last forever or only a few crafters are needed. Item upkeep and creation needs to have high value as well as those doing it.

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6 hours ago, Weebles said:

THE CRYPT (AND THE RETURN OF CHARACTER SLOTS)

We’ve come back around to the idea of giving each account a limited number of “character slots”.

 

Many months ago you offered all Kickstarter Backer's a $10.00 store credit to exchange their character slots in since they were no longer valid or in the scope of the game.  Does this mean previous KS backers can buy the expanded character slots again for $10.00 and will this be opened up to the general public (non KS backers)?

 

 

Edit: 
You may notice there is a max number of vessels the player can have. We are allowing all players to have access to 6 slots as a baseline. You may also notice 3 locked slots which were available for Kickstarter packages that were Silver and higher. For those who missed the Kickstarter opportunity or didn’t get all 3 extra slots, don’t worry we will offer them in the store.

It was 25 store credit iirc


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2 hours ago, Svenn said:

No, but it's heavily implied.

"This means that players who want to play a single character in the Crowfall® universe -- and not jump between multiple incarnations like a shapechanger – will be able to do that."

Not to mention the fact that it ceases to be an item at that point.

Also, if vessels don't decay... do Disciplines? Since Disciplines are tied to vessels the idea was that you'd need to get new ones when your vessel eventually decayed. That could mess up discipline crafting as well.

They could do decay without full destruction. And proportion the quality of the vessel with its durability %. Then make the repair costs based on necromancy-created materials. 

Edited by McTan

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Great update. I only wanted to play one character, a persistent character.

it wouldnt bother me at all if necromancy was completely removed from the game. I'd prefer that it was, everything to do concerning it is a hassle.

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the previous "decay" and demand for disciplines and vessels was the assumption - as with the current tests - that your vessel and it's attached disciplines would die and be lost on the end of a campaign world destruction. [or be super expensive to export - i hoped zero export on an equipped vessel myself tbh]

[driving going into a new CW - even outside the dregs - to reset your sacirifce XP, vessel crafting and discipline hunting and crafting loop]

which no longer looks to be the case?


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Imho there are two paths and you need to choose one.

You can have character slots and xp progressions or you can have craftable vessels that will be crafted, destroyed and maybe looted. But you can't have character slots with craftable permanent bodies, this option would create professions without a proper sink.

I think you're trying to make everyone happy. The people who wants active progression (xp levels), the people who don't want to lose  their progression ... but when you started the Kickstarter you said this game won't be for everybody. I understand you want as much players as possible, but you need to keep a healthy ecosystem.

If you choose the character slots and xp progression you should remove the necromancy profession. If you choose to keep the necromancy profession the vessels have to be destroyed eventually.

I personally prefer the second option because it generates more choices and a bigger economy, but I'm ok with the first one, it just has to make sense.

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When I first read about Crowfall the vessel system was one of the most interesting parts of the core design.  Taking one of the core systems of Eve Online and pairing it with the campaigns really solves some of the core issues with the structure of modern MMO's, especially PvP based games.  This is the first time there's been a big announcement on a system change that didn't excite me.  I'm actually a bit concerned.

There are changes here that go counter to the core of the systems they're changing.  It's taking a system that while requiring some explanation to a new player was streamlined and interesting, and changing that system into something more complex and slightly harder to describe to someone new.

To maintain the vessel system and implement this new change of vessels becoming characters you're going to have to make design choices that give vessels/characters some sort of shelf life, which is counter to the suggestion that making them characters adds immersion.  If you're going to limit certain campaigns on what vessels people can bring in people are going to end up in situations where they need to delete a character.  You've now given someone a more of a reason to get attached to the vessel, but also required them to potentially lose it.  At some point someone is going to build up a collection of vessels/characters that they don't want to delete, and they will now be limited on what campaigns they can join by this factor.

The rest of my thoughts are a bit jumbled and it could take me a couple hours to sort them into a coherent post, which would end up being fairly long anyway.  So here's a bulleted list.

  • Crypts!  Some people seem surprised, this just seemed obvious to me.
  • Why bother tying skills to the crow if vessels are now essentially characters?
  • The notion that people need to be attached to their vessels is odd.  Before this change my crow was my character.  Nobody in Eve Online worries about whether they're attached to their battleship.  Nor are they overly upset when they lose said ship in combat.
  • If my crow is no longer my character, what is the crow?  Again, why are skills tied to the crow?  Are crows gone?  If no crows why do my new characters have the training of the previous characters?
  • Once people have a collection of established characters necromancy becomes must less worthwhile.  Time to abandon a year of training!
  • Takes a big chunk of potential out of the player economy, not just on the necromancy side but on the rune side as well.
  • Do you try and solve this by maintaining durability on vessels?  Well that works against making them characters.
  • Character limits...  Now I'm much less likely to have different vessels for a given class based on use/need.  Leaving me with less option for theory crafting and testing different combinations.  Hooray for a hit against another great aspect of the game.
  • Character selection screen instead of lobby?!  Semantics.  A character selection screen is a lobby.  There are ways to get a character selection UI without changing vessels into characters.
  •  Vessels in part were a solutions to the concept of characters and character slots.  A very elegant solutions.  Now they're being complicated by adding in the problem they fixed.
  • Vessels now being temporary items that later become characters seem like it's just complicating things.  It seems like you're trying to go to a characters system and bandaid on the necromancy/vessel system that makes less sense in the new context of characters.  Thematically as well, the two concepts don't mesh well together.

I very strongly feel that making vessels into characters is not the way to go.  You could easily get a character selection like UI in the lobby (it's still a lobby even if you want to suggest it's not) by simply having crypts not only be where you change vessels, but a place where you can store them.  If a vessel is stored in a crypt it becomes one that you can log directly into.  You could still put limits on how many vessels are stored in a given crypt, or on a given server.  Maybe some campaigns crypts are linked, while others they separate like the local banks currently.  For separate crypts you could have them all accessible from the beachhead crypt like you can do with local banks  EK's crypts could all be tied together and vessel imports to campaign worlds you select from available vessels in the joint EK crypt.

There are ways to address some of the stated issues without muddying the waters about what is and what is not a character.

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2 hours ago, Extintor said:

Imho there are two paths and you need to choose one.

You can have character slots and xp progressions or you can have craftable vessels that will be crafted, destroyed and maybe looted. But you can't have character slots with craftable permanent bodies, this option would create professions without a proper sink.

I think you're trying to make everyone happy. The people who wants active progression (xp levels), the people who don't want to lose  their progression ... but when you started the Kickstarter you said this game won't be for everybody. I understand you want as much players as possible, but you need to keep a healthy ecosystem.

If you choose the character slots and xp progression you should remove the necromancy profession. If you choose to keep the necromancy profession the vessels have to be destroyed eventually.

I personally prefer the second option because it generates more choices and a bigger economy, but I'm ok with the first one, it just has to make sense.

Exactly, also by trying to please everyone, you usually end up not pleasing anyone

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