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Malic-Valdon

I need talking points

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I had an argument in my guild the other night, there are hundreds of people in this guild (not in the conversation) and we were chatting about starting a branch in crowfall. As an early backer I was of course excited about it and strongly supported the notion. 

 

The problem is there is a faction in the guild, that claim crowfall is p2w. They are saying this because Char experience and skills are time sinks in terms of training skills that VIP guilds and members will have a remarkable advantage. I had no rebuttal. Am I understanding the VIP correctly? Is it in fact faster to train your crow as a vip? 

 

I mean Im still playing either way but this faction within my guild seems to have the floor (they are driving the convo) as we are discussing new game possibilities because CU is taking forever. 

Anyway I could use a good rebuttal to this argument. 

Thanks

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12 minutes ago, Malic-Valdon said:

I had an argument in my guild the other night, there are hundreds of people in this guild (not in the conversation) and we were chatting about starting a branch in crowfall. As an early backer I was of course excited about it and strongly supported the notion. 

 

The problem is there is a faction in the guild, that claim crowfall is p2w. They are saying this because Char experience and skills are time sinks in terms of training skills that VIP guilds and members will have a remarkable advantage. I had no rebuttal. Am I understanding the VIP correctly? Is it in fact faster to train your crow as a vip? 

 

I mean Im still playing either way but this faction within my guild seems to have the floor (they are driving the convo) as we are discussing new game possibilities because CU is taking forever. 

Anyway I could use a good rebuttal to this argument. 

Thanks

vip does not "train faster"
 
you can train more alternative options at once - but your power level is the same as someone on that single path. a lot of the alternative effects would not even be active at once either. it is also not trivial to switch to another class/character or to actively progress and gear them on the fly either. even a non vip member will be able to train multiple options at once as well [e.g. min of 2 classes and 2 races - can be up to 4+ too]

 
"Please note that you have to spread the three skills across three different classes; you cannot train multiple skills in the same class skill tree at one time. The reason for this limitation is to ensure that VIP status offers more options versus non-VIP, but not more power. VIP members do not get an advantage in general skills, but they DO have the benefits of having more variety in the classes they can readily play"
 

"DOES VIP STATUS GIVE ME AN IN-GAME ADVANTAGE?
No. Because you can only play one character at a time, VIP accounts and standard accounts are balanced on a moment-by-moment basis. VIP accounts offer more variety in playstyle, but are no more powerful.

Our goal is to make the VIP membership entirely optional."

Edited by Tinnis

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for a visual demontstration:

EF1UeYh.png

A non VIP can train 1 race, 1 class and 1 profession

while a VIP could train 2 of each instead [but not within the same sub line]

e.g. a vip could train to be a mage and a fighter - but *not* a mage and arcane [as that would be 'double dipping' in the same sphere] etc

even a non vip could end up training 'mage' for 4 different class options - its up to them when they want to then progress to be more specalised e.g. to arcane - which still gives 2 class options at once to play

also training is only active when you are in a body of that race and class too in terms of the benefits being active or not

Edited by Tinnis

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Thanks for the detailed reply. 

Can non backers read this forum? I can just point them here Im not going to be able to articulate all of that. 

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20 minutes ago, Malic-Valdon said:

Thanks for the detailed reply. 

Can non backers read this forum? I can just point them here Im not going to be able to articulate all of that. 

yes

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Thank you @Tinnis for your work in trying to dispel this myth.

It is a shame, however, that the training is bugged right now (and allowing double dipping).  Obviously it is pre-alpha and all that, but too many people jump in and see how it works and think it is P2W.  When in reality, it just isn't working correctly right now.

You not only have to fight against misinformation from click-bait YouTubers, but you also have to fight against the current public facing implementation.  I am worried what continued exposure of the bugged system will do to the reputation of the game.  Once people write it off as P2W, they may never look at it again.  The whole "it is bugged and P2W right now, but won't be" is a hard sell.

Keep fighting the good fight!

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8 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

Thank you @Tinnis for your work in trying to dispel this myth.

It is a shame, however, that the training is bugged right now (and allowing double dipping).  Obviously it is pre-alpha and all that, but too many people jump in and see how it works and think it is P2W.  When in reality, it just isn't working correctly right now.

You not only have to fight against misinformation from click-bait YouTubers, but you also have to fight against the current public facing implementation.  I am worried what continued exposure of the bugged system will do to the reputation of the game.  Once people write it off as P2W, they may never look at it again.  The whole "it is bugged and P2W right now, but won't be" is a hard sell.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[talking recent youtube not this thread] people who yell p2w have by their own admission never tested the game directly and based the majority of their opinion on watching a 2 minute tutorial video on the skill training system rather than actually reading any news articles, the extensive FAQs or in depth videos or streams from the developers - or even coming to a community run discord or reddit *before* making a sensationalist click bait video based on an entire lack of knowledge [he came to the discord *after* the video to beg/poke for information and clearly displayed an entire lack of basic knowledge at all]

Edited by Tinnis

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Tennis did a decent job but he missed one of the most important things that makes VIP not P2W.

They plan to have it earned or created in game. So a person can still have VIP with out actually buying it. 

So any advantage that can be gained by VIP, a normal person playing the game should be able to get the same benefits.

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2 minutes ago, Vectious said:

Tennis did a decent job but he missed one of the most important things that makes VIP not P2W.

They plan to have it earned or created in game. So a person can still have VIP with out actually buying it. 

So any advantage that can be gained by VIP, a normal person playing the game should be able to get the same benefits.

indeed, as vectious says, this too. like Eve online PLEX.

e.g.

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/general/pricing/

Quote

Can I trade VIP membership tickets to other players?

Yes. This means that people who purchase the game but don’t want to pay a monthly subscription can still become VIP members by providing goods and services to other players.

One year bundles of VIP, purchased at a discount, may not be traded

 

Edited by Tinnis

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IMO if someone has already got the idea in their mind that it's P2W then they most likely aren't going to change that perceptive no matter how much evidence you present to them. They've already switched off per say towards the game.

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5 minutes ago, Vectious said:

Tennis did a decent job but he missed one of the most important things that makes VIP not P2W.

They plan to have it earned or created in game. So a person can still have VIP with out actually buying it. 

So any advantage that can be gained by VIP, a normal person playing the game should be able to get the same benefits.

 

3 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

indeed, as vectious says, this too. like Eve online PLEX.

e.g.

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/general/pricing/

The only disconnect I see here is the CW lengths and that they have come out and said that no store purchased items will be able to make it in to the CWs.  This means that VIP can not be brought in to the CWs and traded for.  So people have to export their goods to the EK (Still unclear on those rules for actual CWs) so that they can trade for VIP.  Meaning, if we can only export at the end of the CW you better have a ton of stuff to sell to cover that 3-6 months of VIP. Will it be enough? Who knows.

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37 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

IMO if someone has already got the idea in their mind that it's P2W then they most likely aren't going to change that perceptive no matter how much evidence you present to them. They've already switched off per say towards the game.

in the same way that recyling my plastic won't save the ocean, i'll still keep doing it! :P

Edited by Tinnis

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36 minutes ago, Destrin said:

 

The only disconnect I see here is the CW lengths and that they have come out and said that no store purchased items will be able to make it in to the CWs.  This means that VIP can not be brought in to the CWs and traded for.  So people have to export their goods to the EK (Still unclear on those rules for actual CWs) so that they can trade for VIP.  Meaning, if we can only export at the end of the CW you better have a ton of stuff to sell to cover that 3-6 months of VIP. Will it be enough? Who knows.

Im not referencing the tickets you buy from the store. 

Todd references earning it in game. As if you could craft it or get it in another way via a in-game mechanic. 

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2 minutes ago, Vectious said:

Todd references earning it in game. As if you could craft it or get it in another way via a in-game mechanic.

Can you provide a link for this information? I don't remember that ever being mentioned.

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4 hours ago, Malic-Valdon said:

I had an argument in my guild the other night, there are hundreds of people in this guild (not in the conversation) and we were chatting about starting a branch in crowfall. As an early backer I was of course excited about it and strongly supported the notion. 

 

The problem is there is a faction in the guild, that claim crowfall is p2w. They are saying this because Char experience and skills are time sinks in terms of training skills that VIP guilds and members will have a remarkable advantage. I had no rebuttal. Am I understanding the VIP correctly? Is it in fact faster to train your crow as a vip? 

 

I mean Im still playing either way but this faction within my guild seems to have the floor (they are driving the convo) as we are discussing new game possibilities because CU is taking forever. 

Anyway I could use a good rebuttal to this argument. 

Thanks

Jtodd Coleman address this a while ago on reddit:

 

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9 minutes ago, Vectious said:

Im not referencing the tickets you buy from the store. 

Todd references earning it in game. As if you could craft it or get it in another way via a in-game mechanic. 

^ above.

you can

Quote

 

Can I trade VIP membership tickets to other players?

Yes.

 

but i imagine vip tokens can only stay in the EKs. so not made "in game" - only bought. you could however meet up and trade in EK and then meet up and trade within a dregs world...........if you trust them! [scam IS allowed in the terms of service!] :P

so you could barter it by

Quote

"providing goods and services to other players."

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/general/pricing/

e.g. heres my 1000 blue ore, give me a vip token! :P

Edited by Tinnis

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VIP tickets cannot enter the campaign worlds. They can only be traded in Eternal Kingdoms. Therefore, if you play "no import" campaigns it would be very difficult to "Pay to Win" with VIP tickets since you couldn't import materials/armor/weapons from EK's. 

Edited by blazzen

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Frankly my motivation for posting is selfish as I want my guild to move into Crowfall. Ive tested a little and it has a lot of promise. The campaigns are a real hook, I think its a great concept for an mmo to have the win parameters but the counter argument I got was that VIP were able to progress more skills than non VIP. 

 

I had no counter due to my lack of understanding. Several in the guild didnt think it was a big deal but many thought that at a guild level it would be a disadvantage. I then explained that campaign win parameters would be different depending on where we played and that seemed to go over well. I then got the reply "Will some of the campaigns be non VIP?"

I didnt have an answer for that either. 

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8 minutes ago, Malic-Valdon said:

Frankly my motivation for posting is selfish as I want my guild to move into Crowfall. Ive tested a little and it has a lot of promise. The campaigns are a real hook, I think its a great concept for an mmo to have the win parameters but the counter argument I got was that VIP were able to progress more skills than non VIP. 

 

I had no counter due to my lack of understanding. Several in the guild didnt think it was a big deal but many thought that at a guild level it would be a disadvantage. I then explained that campaign win parameters would be different depending on where we played and that seemed to go over well. I then got the reply "Will some of the campaigns be non VIP?"

I didnt have an answer for that either. 

What games does your guild play right now? Have they never played a subscription based game before? The VIP subscription isn't that big of a deal, IMO. 

$0.50 per day is pretty damn cheap entertainment. Just buy a VIP subscription.

Also worth noting that RIGHT NOW you get VIP benefits as long as you have just 1 month of VIP. The VIP month's won't be consumed until the game launches. 

Edited by blazzen

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