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Malic-Valdon

I need talking points

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23 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

ESO also have an very well established and known IP backing the game up, that alone can sell MANY MANY copies on its own, where crowfall is a brand new IP, so is really not a fair comparison

 

Another thing noone mentioned is that you don't even need VIP at all to get max training, as you can with tomes buy training time from other players, and no tome can make you excess the amount of training a day 1 VIP would have

The ESO Sub model has a long evolution. At one time you had to be subbed to play, and while I think its a decent model now its had some bumps along the way. It does not confer to you any kind of advantage against another player. Perhaps one could argue that the XP bonus allows you to grind CP faster but since its capped its moot. This thread has gone a long way to explain why VIP is not P2W in crowfall. 

 

Its there if you want to see it, but because of how the skill system works E lawyers and the online semantics professionals are going to be able to dilute the literal. It always happens in mmo's. Thanks for all the replies it really helped. 

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1 hour ago, Malic-Valdon said:

The ESO Sub model has a long evolution. At one time you had to be subbed to play, and while I think its a decent model now its had some bumps along the way. It does not confer to you any kind of advantage against another player. Perhaps one could argue that the XP bonus allows you to grind CP faster but since its capped its moot. This thread has gone a long way to explain why VIP is not P2W in crowfall. 

 

Its there if you want to see it, but because of how the skill system works E lawyers and the online semantics professionals are going to be able to dilute the literal. It always happens in mmo's. Thanks for all the replies it really helped. 

so if Crowfall would make VIP mandatory for everyone then Crowfall wouldn't be p2w anymore? Do I understand this correct?

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13 hours ago, Xomox said:

But it would not get the pay to win perception for that...   the extra space is a quality of life thing.   Its nice as a crafter Ill pay for more space have and do, its a safe non-pay to win method.

You simply cannot base the reality on some fools perception...  the ViP will not allow any faster power progression, only depth of choice...   In a few patches you won't be able to train Sylvan and Fairy or Rogue and Mercenary at the same time.   Most of these detractors are simply trolls who neither understand the mechanic or test this game...  PvE types who always trash PvP mmos as they salivate over expansion x that give new silly boss y that drops weapon z and fall down crying in the face of real danger to their pixels.

With Vessels and VIP you could have skills in Sylvan and Man, Rogue and Mage, etc but you can only wear one skin job, one meat ship at a time and that taps only the skill tree for the vessels race and class...   Just like you can have Blacksmithing and leatherworking on the same account but to be optimal the same vessel will not do both.    
 

The power progression is linear, in fact power progression slows significantly over time so new players are getting more skills faster.

Edited by Frykka

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10 hours ago, drunk said:

so if Crowfall would make VIP mandatory for everyone then Crowfall wouldn't be p2w anymore? Do I understand this correct?

I suspect no matter the articulation the likely hood of you understanding anything beyond what you want to believe is pretty dim.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Malic-Valdon said:

I suspect no matter the articulation the likely hood of you understanding anything beyond what you want to believe is pretty dim.

 

why so aggressive?

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On 2/12/2018 at 7:57 AM, Malic-Valdon said:

I had an argument in my guild the other night, there are hundreds of people in this guild (not in the conversation) and we were chatting about starting a branch in crowfall. As an early backer I was of course excited about it and strongly supported the notion. 

One other point that I may add. If you belong to a larger gaming community, the advantages of VIP are, or can be. diminished even further. Depending on the size roster you plan to bring, by the time everyone fills out their roles (crafting/gathering wise), it will be an even game. No one can train any faster than anyone else. As long as everyone works together (which is what good guilds do), their reservations will be proved largely unfounded.

Currently, the rate of training is increased significantly. If you have people interested in giving it a go, I highly suggest they spend the extra 30 on the Pioneer pack. It gives 1 month VIP, which will allow them to test everything faster!

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6 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

One other point that I may add. If you belong to a larger gaming community, the advantages of VIP are, or can be. diminished even further. Depending on the size roster you plan to bring, by the time everyone fills out their roles (crafting/gathering wise), it will be an even game. No one can train any faster than anyone else. As long as everyone works together (which is what good guilds do), their reservations will be proved largely unfounded.

Currently, the rate of training is increased significantly. If you have people interested in giving it a go, I highly suggest they spend the extra 30 on the Pioneer pack. It gives 1 month VIP, which will allow them to test everything faster!

Thats a good point. 

 

Its a large guild with people all over the world that play various games. We've been in mmo's for a while but after BDO we decided to take a break, most of us anyway. At the time several (50+) were early backers of Camelot Unchained but progress there has been slow so some of us checked out Crowfall. For now it appears the crowfall debate is over, the majority are still waiting for CU and happily playing WoW, ESO, BDO etc. 

 

I personally have no issue with a VIP, many in the guild wouldnt either. A lot of us were beta testers on ESO and PvP raided 2-3 times a week in cyrodiil back in the veteran rank days. Much less people play ESO now, we have people scattered all over the place. Seems like a lot of people are hoping that CU pans out as a good RVR pvp. Some of us are still in LOTRO too. Thanks for the reply

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3 hours ago, drunk said:

why so aggressive?

Thank you for proving the point. As a long time MMO player, its very easy to see. 

 

Good luck out there. 

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Actually..

I buy a few VIP. I have a friend/guild_member/second_account in a campaign. I trade bob my VIP and bob's friend/guild_member/second_account trades my friend/guild_member/second_account the items.

VIP allows the user to train faster in a complete sense. Right now it'll take 7 years 9 months (rough estimate) to complete a set of skills (I can't remember if it's class or race). VIP can do that in half the time because they can train 2 groups simultaneously. People also seem to forget about the skill caps. There's a possibility that all training won't be required! 

The Tomes will allow a new player or someone that took a break to catch up to the a minute 1 VIP player.

While I don't see p2w in vip training I do see pay to advance or pay to not need the time. Trading VIP can be p2w however we have full loot in some campaigns and you aren't guaranteed to get the gear you specifically want. ie you wont get a legendary set of gear day 1 of a campaign.

VIP is just a means to an end. anyone can pay via paypal or forum gold or other currency (bitcoins) to get goods in game.

 

buying a second account is actually cheaper over 5 years. 2 accounts 100$. 1 account and 5 years of VIP 900$. VIP won't be 9x stronger than 2 accounts. 2 accounts can dual harvest or harvest and guard.

Edited by jetah

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23 hours ago, blazzen said:

Jtodd Coleman address this a while ago on reddit:

So basically ACE's view on what is P2W is one view and not really evidence that money won't influence the game. To say their model is potentially the opposite of P2W is laughable. There is no way to avoid cash leaking into most MMOs, but they have done little to stop it and in fact seem to encourage, non-directly of course, but they will still profit.

If only there weren't two options for companies to choose from: No trading at all ever or RMT and shops selling goods for players to trade :rolleyes:

20 hours ago, Xomox said:

Truth is we all have no idea how much of an edge VIP will give you, but to claim it wont give any edge is disingenuous.  

For me it goes beyond VIP and into everything that might be bought/traded/sold from the store. I agree we have no real idea of how important any of this will be, but it's hard for me to see it not factoring in at all or those spending cash not having some advantage. Which is hard to avoid, but ACE hasn't done much to help, actually the opposite.

17 hours ago, Jah said:

The ability to train two different professions is very different than the ability to train one more quickly. I've noticed that most people that want to cry "Pay To Win" ignore that distinction, including you.

You can't actually play multiple roles at the same time, so being able to train multiple roles does not give anything like the advantage that "advance quicker" implies.

True, but multiple roles aren't exactly non-advantageous either. Maybe a matter of perspective or what will be more useful in game, but if VIP didn't provide some potential advantage (perceived or not), people wouldn't be buying it.

On 2/12/2018 at 4:57 AM, Malic-Valdon said:

The problem is there is a faction in the guild, that claim crowfall is p2w. They are saying this because Char experience and skills are time sinks in terms of training skills that VIP guilds and members will have a remarkable advantage. I had no rebuttal. Am I understanding the VIP correctly? Is it in fact faster to train your crow as a vip? 

As is, VIP will provide potential power through having access to more options. Not unlike a player/guild with many alt accounts. A guild with 50 players and 50 accounts vs 50 players and 100 alt accounts for example. As has been said, we can only do one thing at a time, but there is no evidence that this 1 thing will be useful 100% of the time or be the "best" option 100% of the time. Ex: End of campaign, world resources are low, gathering might be less effectively than crafter or fighting it out. Scouting or Map Making (if they become a thing) similar situation, once the map is figured out and less is needed, another option might be more viable (just theory).

We don't yet know how easy, popular, or important it will be to trade store bought items for in-game items. Could be nothing or could be a very big deal.

For now, the game isn't finished enough to have a clear picture to me.

Devs state that the game isn't P2W based on THEIR definition of what that means. Doesn't make it true or false. If we want to get real technical, almost no games allow you to buy items that you then equip and then magically win. Effort of some sort has to be applied, typically a bit of player skill as well.

Best to wait and see how it turns out. Still plenty of time for your guild to become interested or not.

On 2/12/2018 at 8:28 AM, Destrin said:

The only disconnect I see here is the CW lengths and that they have come out and said that no store purchased items will be able to make it in to the CWs. 

Where did they stat this? What about mounts, pack animals, and relics that have been sold in the store? Although relics/artifacts only need to be placed in EKs to benefit players in CWs. Trading in the EK and dealing with import rules is still an option.

23 hours ago, blazzen said:

VIP tickets cannot enter the campaign worlds. They can only be traded in Eternal Kingdoms. 

Same as above. Where did they state this? Will be nice to have an updated FAQ.

Edited by APE

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20 minutes ago, APE said:

True, but multiple roles aren't exactly non-advantageous either. Maybe a matter of perspective or what will be more useful in game, but if VIP didn't provide some potential advantage (perceived or not), people wouldn't be buying it.

Agreed. I was simply trying to distinguish between training multiple roles and training faster. When people say VIP lets you train faster it sounds like it will impact balance more than training multiple roles does.

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3 hours ago, APE said:

So basically ACE's view on what is P2W is one view and not really evidence that money won't influence the game. To say their model is potentially the opposite of P2W is laughable. There is no way to avoid cash leaking into most MMOs, but they have done little to stop it and in fact seem to encourage, non-directly of course, but they will still profit.

If only there weren't two options for companies to choose from: No trading at all ever or RMT and shops selling goods for players to trade :rolleyes:

For me it goes beyond VIP and into everything that might be bought/traded/sold from the store. I agree we have no real idea of how important any of this will be, but it's hard for me to see it not factoring in at all or those spending cash not having some advantage. Which is hard to avoid, but ACE hasn't done much to help, actually the opposite.

True, but multiple roles aren't exactly non-advantageous either. Maybe a matter of perspective or what will be more useful in game, but if VIP didn't provide some potential advantage (perceived or not), people wouldn't be buying it.

As is, VIP will provide potential power through having access to more options. Not unlike a player/guild with many alt accounts. A guild with 50 players and 50 accounts vs 50 players and 100 alt accounts for example. As has been said, we can only do one thing at a time, but there is no evidence that this 1 thing will be useful 100% of the time or be the "best" option 100% of the time. Ex: End of campaign, world resources are low, gathering might be less effectively than crafter or fighting it out. Scouting or Map Making (if they become a thing) similar situation, once the map is figured out and less is needed, another option might be more viable (just theory).

We don't yet know how easy, popular, or important it will be to trade store bought items for in-game items. Could be nothing or could be a very big deal.

For now, the game isn't finished enough to have a clear picture to me.

Devs state that the game isn't P2W based on THEIR definition of what that means. Doesn't make it true or false. If we want to get real technical, almost no games allow you to buy items that you then equip and then magically win. Effort of some sort has to be applied, typically a bit of player skill as well.

Best to wait and see how it turns out. Still plenty of time for your guild to become interested or not.

Where did they stat this? What about mounts, pack animals, and relics that have been sold in the store? Although relics/artifacts only need to be placed in EKs to benefit players in CWs. Trading in the EK and dealing with import rules is still an option.

Same as above. Where did they state this? Will be nice to have an updated FAQ.

Ape, I cant comment on all your points, I simply lack the education on Crowfall to do so. I wanted to say thank you for replying and addressing things from your point of view in the manner in which you did. Making good choices requires review of multiple points of view. 

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The smart play for Crowfall if they want to avoid the pay to win tag and pull in money.

Try the VIP method with only quality of life perks.  

There is an advantage to having a second or more accounts with the dedicated crafting training etc...   I wont say DAoC style buff bots, but craft accounts and combat accounts seems like a very possible outcome and its good for the games income.  

Oh and yes I had a buff bot account in DAoC and I would probably buy a crafting account for Crowfall, I dont like the pay to win tag the VIP perk gives.   Wont argue semantics that buying a second account is the same... its not from a pulling in players perspective.   

Perception matters, buy VIP account gets stronger.    Buy second account /shrug MMO community would not give a poorly made socks.

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13 hours ago, Malic-Valdon said:

happily playing WoW, ESO, BDO etc.

13 hours ago, Malic-Valdon said:

Some of us are still in LOTRO too

If you have a large PvX guild with broad ranging interests, that might be more of the issue than the pay model of CF. CF is definitely a niche game - not everyone is interested in an open-world, pvp-focused, crafting-based economic and siege game.

WoW and LotRO are both good games but very far from what CF is about. Many of us that are the potential audience for CF are not happily playing any MMO right now. 

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13 hours ago, miraluna said:

If you have a large PvX guild with broad ranging interests, that might be more of the issue than the pay model of CF. CF is definitely a niche game - not everyone is interested in an open-world, pvp-focused, crafting-based economic and siege game.

WoW and LotRO are both good games but very far from what CF is about. Many of us that are the potential audience for CF are not happily playing any MMO right now. 

It's not about being a niche market.   I seen first hand the pay to win tag for Crowfall is spreading, one of the reasons I came back to see where the game was at.   The MMO players, niche or not wont stand for pay to win models.

Crowfall must try other sources for revenue other VIP perks not tied to power levels.   Its very important, dire even that the pay to win model/tag is changed, the echo chamber here has no idea and will likely kill the game they would love to see do great.

I'm reminding of a char in a book called..... of mice and men.

Take a guess who I think you all are supporting pay to win current VIP settup?

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I really don't understand the problem with spending 8-15 bucks a month on an MMO as a subscription.

Assuming the MMO doesn't have a cash shop with P2W items in it, and you can't buy power with money - I'm perfectly okay with the subs having advantages over the free players.

You pay 8-15 bucks a month (which is what all the good MMO's required before the monetisztion practices  industry turned into the disgusting mess it is today) and you get a team working on the game constantly, adding content, balancing, fixing issues.

Can someone explain what exactly the problem with that is?

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On 2/12/2018 at 11:03 AM, Malic-Valdon said:

I suspect its not going to take a zerg to kill you, you'll likely be one of the the 10% that cry on the forums because you died in a PVP zone in a manner you didnt deem fitting. 

Maybe we'll see you out there, who knows. You bet we'll zerg you, snowflake. 

I like you already. Please get your guild to try out Crowfall. We need a hot summer to melt all of the remaining snowflakes.

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2 hours ago, xaine said:

I really don't understand the problem with spending 8-15 bucks a month on an MMO as a subscription.

Assuming the MMO doesn't have a cash shop with P2W items in it, and you can't buy power with money - I'm perfectly okay with the subs having advantages over the free players.

You pay 8-15 bucks a month (which is what all the good MMO's required before the monetisztion practices  industry turned into the disgusting mess it is today) and you get a team working on the game constantly, adding content, balancing, fixing issues.

Can someone explain what exactly the problem with that is?

People are poor. Not me. But most other people.

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2 hours ago, Xomox said:

It's not about being a niche market.

If you are happily playing WoW, and paying the WoW monthly sub and buying the WoW expansion packs, why would you switch to CF? It's not the same type of MMO. EVE has a similar business model and has done very well in finding it's niche market.

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2 hours ago, xaine said:

I really don't understand the problem with spending 8-15 bucks a month on an MMO as a subscription.

Assuming the MMO doesn't have a cash shop with P2W items in it, and you can't buy power with money - I'm perfectly okay with the subs having advantages over the free players.

You pay 8-15 bucks a month (which is what all the good MMO's required before the monetisztion practices  industry turned into the disgusting mess it is today) and you get a team working on the game constantly, adding content, balancing, fixing issues.

Can someone explain what exactly the problem with that is?

Its the monetization of gaming that has people (at least in my gaming circle) highly suspect of how games make money. I agree with you, I think 15 bucks a month is reasonable for a good gaming experience, but gaming isnt like it used to be, so there are super skeptical people out there about it. Im not saying they should be about Crowfall. 

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