Unfolded

Guards in Keeps?

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19 hours ago, Unfolded said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Texture jumps and texture hits. Maybe you guys have a different language or know more about the backend than I do

he meant there are powers that let you attack through walls and other building objects [and teleport through them as well sometimes]

Edited by Tinnis

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1 minute ago, Anhrez said:

and my lack of understanding of past games leave me un-aware of the impact of a 'bane' window 

i didn't play it either.

just SP/current set up where: we cannot damage the walls of a keep or its tree of life unless we declare a siege window e.g. plant the bane tree (and enter the siege timer). e.g. will that also prevent teleports through walls outside of such periods?

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I always refer back to Darkfall, because this game loves taking ideas from it. In Darkfall, if you entered a city/town.. the people who own it get Notifications, (Someone has Entered ____ City). Also, during that time, there is a loud Lightning Tower thing that shot at them constantly, so you knew where they were. 

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1 hour ago, Anhrez said:

I am not upset I am talking about game mechanics the developers have partially implemented.

Exactly!

I'm not sure why some people think this is a knee jerk reaction or crying for changes due to being killed.

I haven't been killed crafting yet and I have killed several crafters however I recognize the current fort/keep design is flawed in the way guards are implemented. Forts are better "guarded" than keeps are due to the placement of the guards and that is not the intended design. Keeps are intended to be more secure than Forts and I'm confident that ACE will rectify this. 

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1 hour ago, Anhrez said:

 

I also have been killed the same way ... I am not upset I am talking about game mechanics the developers have partially implemented. Forts have at least one guard within line of sight of each entry of a building with a bench and then huge presence for the benches in the main room, a large difference from in the keeps.  Which is the intended design?  because i sure care more about the devs intended design then your opinion on it.

and you signed up for pvp? by having some other ppl kill another player then drop in a crafted item with your name on it?  lol nice pvp-ing skill there 

 

Looking how it is currently implemented it seems to be less about player protection and more about forcing a group to take a fort. In my view they want to make taking forts and keeps meaningful. This might be why the guards are up at the top by the tree rather than down by the crafting stations. 

As for your last comment I don’t see what that has to do with me signing up for pvp  yeah people in my guild killed srathor and put something in his body eith my name on it. How exactly does that relate to what I’m saying?

 

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9 minutes ago, Tark said:

Looking how it is currently implemented it seems to be less about player protection and more about forcing a group to take a fort. In my view they want to make taking forts and keeps meaningful. This might be why the guards are up at the top by the tree rather than down by the crafting stations.

That's a fair point.

Maybe @jtoddcoleman or @thomasblair can shine some light on this. Is your design for guards to protect the capture points of the fort/keep, players at crafting stations, or both? 

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I am not sure adding more guards is the answer here, the only safe spot should be the beach heads and if you are outside you are at risk. Unfortunately some of the teleport mechanics are broken and we are waiting for fixes. It is my understanding that the duelist was intended from the start to have the ability to tunnel into keeps and forts under walls. However, I can say that infiltrating a keep is not exactly easy or without risks not to mention extremely noisy. That said there is definitely some room in how the mechanics are currently working.

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4 minutes ago, ZeFx said:

I am not sure adding more guards is the answer here, the only safe spot should be the beach heads and if you are outside you are at risk. Unfortunately some of the teleport mechanics are broken and we are waiting for fixes. It is my understanding that the duelist was intended from the start to have the ability to tunnel into keeps and forts under walls. However, I can say that infiltrating a keep is not exactly easy or without risks not to mention extremely noisy. That said there is definitely some room in how the mechanics are currently working.

What do you mean? As a duelist, you can burrow under the wall/gate and get inside without getting hit by a guard at all. Zero noise because enemies cannot hear your teleport while burrowed and cannot hear you while you're burrowed.. however friendlies can.

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53 minutes ago, blazzen said:

That's a fair point.

Maybe @jtoddcoleman or @thomasblair can shine some light on this. Is your design for guards to protect the capture points of the fort/keep, players at crafting stations, or both? 

I mean it 'could be' but there are plenty of places in the fort out buildings to put the tables that are in the Fort main room. But ... we see them in the main room with guards in perfect overwatch? 

Edited by Anhrez

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Devil's Advocate: Guards are probably in the Throne-room of the Forts because that's where the "point of capture" is (the throne), and they're centered around the ToL for Keeps because that's the "point of capture".

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If the problem is that Forts have better guard coverage than Keeps then that could be fixed by moving the crafting stations away from the guards in the Forts.

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I'm fine with having "some" guards around as basic protection, but keeps should not be an immune place to craft.  I'm also OK with having to pay a little for the extra protection (because right now its free).  It's a Throne War MMO with hardcore PVP.  If the devs wanted you to be completely immune while crafting, the crafting stations would be in the beachheads.  And they're not.

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On 2/14/2018 at 9:52 AM, Tark said:

Then go craft the forts if you think you are safer. Guards are not fun, and never have been fun. This is a niche hardcore pvp game and we need to treat it as such. I got killed in a keep by a class that naturally shouldn’t be able to get in. I didnt get upset because I signed up for pvp. 

It's not a niche hardcore pvp game. Equipped armor takes a durability hit instead of exchanging hands and the inventory loot isn't even that big of a deal. So basically if you go into a fight the only thing you can lose is your profits ie what you're trying to take out of the fight and bank. You can't lose your gear so you're not even able to have a net loss in a fight other than what the system takes away through a durability hit. So you're not wagering any pixels against anyone but the system.

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3 minutes ago, touchmybow said:

It's not a niche hardcore pvp game. Equipped armor takes a durability hit instead of exchanging hands and the inventory loot isn't even that big of a deal. So basically if you go into a fight the only thing you can lose is your profits ie what you're trying to take out of the fight and bank. You can't lose your gear so you're not even able to have a net loss in a fight other than what the system takes away through a durability hit. So you're not wagering any pixels against anyone but the system.

There will be more hardcore rulesets with more looting. They still talk about full loot in the Dregs. We are currently playing the softest ruleset, God's Reach.

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The ability to teleport through walls should be gated to a specialized discipline  we could call "Sapper", meant specifically to bypass or disable certain fortifications. If the current method of bypassing walls via teleport abilities is a bug, and not intended, we're just going to have to deal with it until it's fixed. We know the devs are aware of it, and we also know that they're not going to be addressing it until later. 

Log in with a team, scope things out, then do your business. If you don't have a team, join or make one. 

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18 hours ago, touchmybow said:

It's not a niche hardcore pvp game. Equipped armor takes a durability hit instead of exchanging hands and the inventory loot isn't even that big of a deal. So basically if you go into a fight the only thing you can lose is your profits ie what you're trying to take out of the fight and bank. You can't lose your gear so you're not even able to have a net loss in a fight other than what the system takes away through a durability hit. So you're not wagering any pixels against anyone but the system.

I try not to feed Tark.  He says things like this on purpose.  There is a name for it but I will get a slap on the wrist for saying what he does while he gets off scott free LOL.

This game better be more than a niche hardcore pvp game. 

Why is the use of exploits allowed and why do people continue to use them when they know they are exploits?  How does this help test the game?  This speaks poorly to the community in general as "testers".

 

Edited by Talizar

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I do think the issue would be better resolved by fixing what should be considered bugs. IE Dissipate / Confessor C / Assassin C going through walls.

Additionally I think stealth needs to be tuned a bit from its current incarnation. Those two fixes would probably solve the issue without adding more NPC's.

I will say I do like the idea of "paying" for more guards, even for a limited amount of time like mercenaries.

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On 2/14/2018 at 10:48 AM, Tark said:

This is a pvp game. You don’t get to be safe 100 percent of the time. The guy in question that died has admitted himself that he doesn’t have the skills to defend himself. That’s his problem and the rest of us shouldn’t be punished for that. 

 

You had players afterwards standing guard and scouting. Players working together happened, just like it was intended. 

There is an argument for reasonable "Push back" from the virtual world in this regard. 

  • Depending on how you look at it, NOT having BALANCED guard complements at forts/keeps is more theme-parking, as opposed to less.

I'm NOT arguing to make every place 100% safe.  That would be just silly.  However, based on what I consider balanced experiences in another game:

In AC2 there were Faction Forts out on some islands.  Portals to those forts were present in each Faction's HQ.

  • The Forts were not of course staffed by players 24/7.  Most often they were near empty.
  • The Forts DID have NPC protection stations with "auto-guns" on them.  Hmmm, I don't remember how many.  One for sure at the end of the bridge, land-side, and I think one over the Gates.
  • They hit hard enough they were dang dangerous.  The design intent was to PROHIBIT EZ-MODING up to the fort.  Exception:  There were Jump Pads available that could be used to get inside the fort, but, again, there was the gate-gun that could still, in limited fashion, fire on them if they happened to have a jump pad entry.

Result:  Balanced, and did enhance PvP (a lot).

Upon detecting attackers and initiating fire, a faction alert was sent by the fort.  If players wanted to mix it up at the fort then they had to hoof-it to the HQ and take the portal, or use their personal recall to the fort if they bound there (lots of people didn't bind to the fort).

The NPC guardians provided the right amount of push-back to:  1)  Disable theme-parked ez-moding entry into a fort, 2) were not overpowered, could be destroyed within a "reasonable" amount of time, and 3) Most importantly:  CONTRIBUTED to generating large scale, fun, PvP engagements.  As opposed to giggling-ez-mode gank circles parked around the zone-in point.

  • Yes, "It's a PvP game".  That's sort of the point.
  • If defending players were slacking on responding quickly, they'd zone in to a captured fort and a ganking by enemy players parked around the zone in point.
  • If defending players were snappy, they'd get to the fort in time to mix it up, have a ton of fun, maybe be successful at defense or maybe still lose it (yes, that still happened plenty of times if attackers had their shizz-whizz together.

A responsive, "living, breathing, world" (use of the environment) can absolutely contribute to that.  It's all in the design.

"Balance Matters" though, and I am in agreement that guards shouldn't be one-shotting detected enemy players. 

  • That they should frustrate detected players solo-ing in, and be a pain in the bow-tocks . . . you betcha.

Part and parcel of infiltrating an established enemy stronghold, no matter it's size.  As opposed to insisting the entire scenario be theme-parked for you.

Edited by Bramble

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