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Xomox

Some numbers for the Min/Max folks.

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Could not find much information, perhaps its already out these on some site all added up but I added up what training gets you for each race (not including vessel bonus add that on yourself, example hamster add +60dex +30int to final underfoot total).   Just wanted to help people understand where they will be at with raw stats down the road depending on training.    Just a starting point helper, all seems fairly balanced once you take the boosts other then raw stats into account and what race/class combos are possible.   I don't see any glaring issues but there are combos that might fit someones long term goals better.

Mankind                               Human                                    Half Blood
Str          20                           Str          20 (=40)                   Str         50 (=70)    
Dex        20                           Dex        50 (=70)                   Dex        20 (=40)    
Int          25                           Int          50 (=75)                   Int          20 (=45)
Spi         20                           Spi         50 (=70)                   Spi         20 (=40)
Con       20                           Con        50 (=70)                   Con       20 (=40)
Crit Cha      +3%                  Hard Control    +5%              Hard Control    +5%
Crit Dam    +3%                   Phy Armor    +3%                  Heal Mod          +5%
Sup Pwr      15                    Ele Armor    +3%                    Crit Def              -3%
Atk Con Def   -5%               Nat Armor    +3%                  Atk Con Def       -5% (=10%)
                                                                                              Mov Con Def    -5%

Sylvan                                    Elf                                                                 Faerie
Str        15                             Str        20 (=35)                                          Str        20 (=35)    
Dex        60                           Dex        45 (=105)                                      Dex        45 (=105)    
Int        20                             Int        50 (=70)                                           Int        20 (=40)
Spi        40                            Spi        30 (=70)                                          Spi        30 (=70)
Con        20                           Con        20 (=40)                                        Con        20 (=40)
Crit Cha        +3%                Crit Cha        +3% (=6%)                              Crit Cha        +3% (=6%)
Crit Dam    +3%                   Sup Pwr        15 (=30)                                 Crit Dam    +3% (=6%)
Sup Pwr        15                  Mov Con Def    -5% (=10%)                         Sup Pwr        25 (=40)    
Mov Con Def    -5%            Mov Control    +5% (=10%)                         Mov Control    +5% (=10%)
Mov Control    +5%            Atk Control    +5%                                        Atk Control    +5%
                                                                                                                     Hard Control    +5%

Monster                                    Hybrid                                                     Underfoot
Str        40                                 Str        60 (=100)                                   Str        30 (=70)    
Dex        20                               Dex        20 (=40)                                    Dex        20 (=40)    
Int        20                                 Int        20 (=40)                                      Int        20 (=40)
Spi        20                                Spi        20 (=40)                                     Spi        20 (=40)
Con        40                              Con        60 (=100)                                 Con        30 (=70)
Sup Pwr        25                      Heal Mod    +5%                                     Sup Pwr     15 (=40)
Hard Con Def    -5%               Hard Control    +5%                                Heal Mod    +3%
Per Dam Mod    +.03%          Move Control    +5%                               Hard Control    +5%
                                                 Pys Armor    +3%                                     Move Control    +5%
                                                 Per Crit Mod    -3%                                  Atk Control    +5%

 

Edited by Xomox

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Now what the numbers show and how these help and hurt certain combos takes a bit of an understanding of what class has what skills, and you need to factor in the race stat boosts.

End of each tree you might get a result that is different then what you at first expected looking at the starting race.

Ill use Hamster again as an example its starting stats getting nice boosts to Dex and Int, yet Monster and Underfoot train those two at the lowest level.   So end game you end up with a more balanced stat base then say a fully trained Elf or Fae.    Need to factor in the non-stat boosts of course, perhaps an 'end game' Hamster Cleric wont be so bad heal Mod with good boosts to control skills, might even be a decent CC Knight.   Just one example,   some are clear what they will be doing like the elf/fae High dex or int with crits.

Edited by Xomox

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10 hours ago, samiotis said:

What's the numbers in the prenthesis for like (=50) ?

Its the total value when you add the previous general race training tree.   For example Mankind gets +20 str.    If you then train half-blood that's another + 50str giving a total of +70 str.    

I did not list the boost of individual race vessels but under half-blood, there are Half-Elf and Half-Giant.    half-giant for example gets +60str  so total with training you have 130 str (highest possible race+training combo btw)

The reason i posted this is so people looking at say a site like Malekai.org that lists racial boosts know to add the possible training deep in the tree.     It's very important to plan ahead in Crowfall as your training is all timegated.     If you like Elken and want to be a Knight seeing Elken gets +30 str you might think its a good choice for a high str build, early on yes... but as you invest all your training into Fae the end result is only +35 str the lowest boost leaving you with a final total of only +65str.   That's actually lower then a Hamster who starts with zero boost to str and ends up with +70str.   

I'm digging into what stats are best, that i wont know likely for many months as im just casually testing.    Just wanted to give the totals for fellow min/maxers trying to make their choices over the next 9 months leading to release.

 

 

Elken knight fans this is just an example for numbers not saying Elken knight is a bad choice. There are other factors to consider of course.

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Side note:   The trees and race/class combos are shockingly balanced looks release ready based on the race info so far, someone on the dev team clearly put thought into the trees and starting vessel stats, no combo will be gimp in anyway that i can see spent hours looking at them.    However if you plan to do specific things a little better then others this info added up on the training trees matters, not talking huge edges here but the min/maxers live in the realm of arguing over fractions of a % in power. 

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So far as I can tell, all races appear to be stat volume balanced once fully trained (about 600 total stat points) - this does not take account of bonuses/penalties due to class choice!  I guess there's going to be a race bonus for fae, high elf and stoneborn when they are released.  As I'm experimenting with wood gathering, I'll start with a half elf due to their very high starting dex +dex bonus from assassin class, and then probably switch to a high elf or fae assassin to take advantage of their racial gathering bonuses and stat bonuses down the line.  Same approach would work for skinning/leatherworking.  I guess optimum ore gatherer is half-giant, and stoneborn for stone (shock!)

  Total  
  dex str int spi cons TOTAL
human 120 120 125 120 120 605
nethari 120 80 165 120 120 605
half elf 160 120 125 120 80 605
half giant 70 200 85 90 160 605
fae 175 75 90 120 80 540
elken 165 115 80 120 120 600
wood elf 160 75 110 160 90 595
high elf 160 75 130 120 80 565
minotaur 120 160 70 80 170 600
centaur 80 160 80 80 200 600
guinecean 170 110 120 90 105 595
stoneborn 70 130 90 90 125 505

 

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Good chart thanks for posting it.   Yeah, stats totals are balanced and where the raw stats might not be you see %boosts to skills and defenses.

Regarding Half-Elf, it's likely going to remain a top choice even end game unless fae come with a huge starting Str (unlikely).    The picture is more complex then,  'rangers and assassins should just stack Dex'.   I'll wait until closer to game release and do more testing.... no point in doing a ton of testing then posting numbers it as it all might change.

Again good chart.

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For all you stat freaks out there, the full race trees in stat form.  Hope it makes sense.  I'd be very surprised if there are no errors...

  Before any training + racial bonus When racial basics tree complete                      
  dex str int spi cons dex str int spi cons Res cost Armour class Max Stamina Inventory slots Harvest crit amount Leader ship Combat leader Harvest leader Craft leader Cooldown reduction: long                      
Human 30 60 30 30 30 50 80 50 50 50 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Nethari 30 20 70 30 30 50 40 90 50 50 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Half elf 100 30 60 60 20 120 50 80 80 40 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Half giant 10 110 20 30 100 30 130 40 50 120 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Fae 50 20 30 30 20 70 40 50 50 40 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Elken 40 60 20 30 60 60 80 40 50 80 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Wood elf 40 20 20 70 30 60 40 40 90 50 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
High elf 40 20 40 30 20 60 40 60 50 40 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Minotaur 60 40 10 20 50 80 60 30 40 70 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Centaur 20 40 20 20 80 40 60 40 40 100 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Guinecean 110 20 60 30 20 130 40 80 50 40 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
Stoneborn 10 40 30 30 40 30 60 50 50 60 -0.04% 1% 5 5 1 10 25 25 25 -0.30%                      
                                                               
  When Racial group tree complete - i.e. Man, Sylvan, Monster (also remember to include yellow section above)                
  dex str int spi cons Support power Attack control defence Hard control intensity Move control defence Move control intensity Hard control defence Personal damage modifier Crit hit chance Crit hit damage Craft speed Craft success Craft experim'nt Craft thralls Tool decay reduction Beneficial harvest chance Beneficial harvest lifetime Beneficial harvest power Harvest crit chance                
Human 70 100 75 70 70 15 -5% 5% - - - - 3% 3% 5% 10 5 1 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Mining & blacksmith              
Nethari 70 60 115 70 70 15 -5% 5% - - - - 3% 3% 5% 10 5 1 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Half elf 140 70 105 100 60 15 -5% 5% - - - - 3% 3% 5% 10 5 1 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Half giant 50 150 65 70 140 15 -5% 5% - - - - 3% 3% 5% 10 5 1 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Fae 130 55 70 90 60 15 - - -5% 5% - - 6% - 5% 10 5 5 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Skinning & leather              
Elken 120 95 60 90 100 15 - - -5% 5% - - 6% - 5% 10 5 5 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Wood elf 120 55 60 130 70 15 - - -5% 5% - - 6% - 5% 10 5 5 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
High elf 120 55 80 90 60 15 - - -5% 5% - - 6% - 5% 10 5 5 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Minotaur 100 100 50 60 110 25 - - - 5% -5% -0.03% - 3% 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Quarry & stone              
Centaur 60 100 60 60 140 25 - - - 5% -5% -0.03% - 3% 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Guinecean 150 80 100 70 80 25 - - - 5% -5% -0.03% - 3% 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
Stoneborn 50 100 70 70 100 25 - - - 5% -5% -0.03% - 3% 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%              
                                                               
  When specific race tree complete - the white section above has been INCLUDED in this table (also remember to include the yellow AND green sections above)      
  dex str int spi cons Support power Attack control defence Attack control intensity Hard control intensity Move control defence Move control intensity Hard control defence Personal damage modifier Crit hit chance Crit hit damage Physical armour Elemental armour Organic armour Healing modifier Personal crit hit modifier Craft speed Craft success Craft experim'nt Craft thralls Tool decay reduction Beneficial harvest chance Beneficial harvest lifetime Beneficial harvest power Harvest crit chance    
Human 120 120 125 120 120 30 -5% - 10% - - - - 3% 3% 3% 3% 3% - - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Quarrying & stonemasonry  
Nethari 120 80 165 120 120 30 -5% - 10% - - - - 3% 3% 3% 3% 3% - - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
Half elf 160 120 125 120 80 15 -10% - 10% - 5% - - 3% 3% - - - 5% -3% 5% 10 10 - 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Graves & Necromancy  
Half giant 70 200 85 90 160 15 -10% - 10% - 5% - - 3% 3% - - - 5% -3% 5% 10 10 - 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
Fae 175 75 90 120 80 40 - 5% 5% -5% 10% - - 6% 3% - - - - - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Tree cutting & woodwork  
Elken 165 115 80 120 120 40 - 5% 5% -5% 10% - - 6% 3% - - - - - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
Wood elf 160 75 110 160 90 30 - 5% - -10% 10% - - 9% - - - - - - 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Tree cutting & woodwork  
High elf 160 75 130 120 80 30 - 5% - -10% 10% - - 9% - - - - - - 5% 10 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
Minotaur 120 160 70 80 170 25 - - 5% - 10% -5% -0.03% - 3% 3% - - 5% -3% 5% 5 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Skinning & leatherwork  
Centaur 80 160 80 80 200 25 - - 5% - 10% -5% -0.03% - 3% 3% - - 5% -3% 5% 5 5 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
Guinecean 170 110 120 90 105 40 - 5% 5% - 10% -5% -0.03% - 3% - - - 3% - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5% Mining & jewelcraft  
Stoneborn 70 130 90 90 125 40 - 5% 5% - 10% -5% -0.03% - 3% - - - 3% - 5% 5 10 error 5% 0.05% 5% 5% 5%  
                                                      Plethora of dust        
    Additional racial bonus stats will apply when these races are brought into the game.  and also on the top table - but I forgot to highlight.  It looks like the crafting thrall nodes are goofed.                                          
                                                               
                                                               

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Excel perfect, I need to get it on this laptop.    That's much easier for people to see at a glance good work Shrika, it really shows how starting vessel stats wont near paint a full picture as people progress down race training trees.     Perhaps winterblades or another larger guild with crafting info would host your info with credit given to you of course.  


 

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Something you're not taking in to account here are the additives from vessels and the 300 cap on stats.

With a Wood Elf right now for example, I can easily break 250 dex just from training and levels on the template white vessels we're currently driving. Our preliminary testing indicates that even with really average normal success experiment rolls on a very easy to acquire green vessel with just a DEX philosopher's stone in it and no other optional additives, that's +20 to dex, and a total of 30-40 stat points spread around. With better experiment rolls and monster dropped additives I could pretty easily hit the 300 cap and have leveling ATT points to spare. Even more if the offhanded comment Blair made on stream about higher rarity vessels possibly having more ATT points per level is true.

In order to really judge the minmax potential here, getting the full picture of ATT points per level and the ceiling for vessels is crucial, as vessels are as much if not more of a factor in ATT point distribution than training when taking in to account the presence of amazing rolls, multiple experimentation steps on philosopher's solutions, stone, and final vessel, and the even larger distribution from higher rarity materials and the necromancer/alchemist's own skills.

Also note that in philosopher's stones, constitution solutions grant 3x as much per solution as any other stat AND necromancy has a thrall node that grants even more base CON to vessels crafted with a thrall present. This makes a race's natural CON score far less impactful than other stats.

 

For example, here's a quick and dirty spirit focused half giant vessel we made with just white and green mats and a very low skilled necromancer/alchemist, compared to the basic white vessels we have now:

ugRAh3s.png

Properly constructed I'm fairly certain I could max INT to 300 on a HG cleric with the right vessel and level up stat allocation if I wanted to with plenty of points left over even with zero training in any of his related skill trees, and INT is a very naturally weak stat for him.

Edited by PopeUrban

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14 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Something you're not taking in to account here are the additives from vessels and the 300 cap on stats.

With a Wood Elf right now for example, I can easily break 250 dex just from training and levels on the template white vessels we're currently driving. Our preliminary testing indicates that even with really average normal success experiment rolls on a very easy to acquire green vessel with just a DEX philosopher's stone in it and no other optional additives, that's +20 to dex, and a total of 30-40 stat points spread around. With better experiment rolls and monster dropped additives I could pretty easily hit the 300 cap and have leveling ATT points to spare. Even more if the offhanded comment Blair made on stream about higher rarity vessels possibly having more ATT points per level is true.

In order to really judge the minmax potential here, getting the full picture of ATT points per level and the ceiling for vessels is crucial, as vessels are as much if not more of a factor in ATT point distribution than training when taking in to account the presence of amazing rolls, multiple experimentation steps on philosopher's solutions, stone, and final vessel, and the even larger distribution from higher rarity materials and the necromancer/alchemist's own skills.

Also note that in philosopher's stones, constitution solutions grant 3x as much per solution as any other stat AND necromancy has a thrall node that grants even more base CON to vessels crafted with a thrall present. This makes a race's natural CON score far less impactful than other stats.

 

For example, here's a quick and dirty spirit focused half giant vessel we made with just white and green mats and a very low skilled necromancer/alchemist, compared to the basic white vessels we have now:

ugRAh3s.png

Properly constructed I'm fairly certain I could max INT to 300 on a HG cleric with the right vessel and level up stat allocation if I wanted to with plenty of points left over even with zero training in any of his related skill trees, and INT is a very naturally weak stat for him.

 I'm confused on the vessel stats how are they so low but when we equip them our stats are so high? 

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SCIENCE!

the algebra on this one should be interesting once we start to see scaling in vessel quality.

Edited by Xpade

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1 hour ago, Xpade said:

SCIENCE!

the algebra on this one should be interesting once we start to see scaling in vessel quality.

Without diving in to my spreadsheets too much, here's the basics of what you should know about vessels:

The Alchemist creates Ambrosia solutions. These are non-stat crafting materials used to turn "fresh" body parts in to "prepared" ones by the necromancer.

The Alchemist makes four separate Philosopher's solutions, each is a single stat, with its own experimentation roll to buff that stat from its base level, and is rarity reacitve.

CON grants 3x more base stats on these solutions than other attributes.

The alchemist then combines these stats any way he chooses, combining four solutions to make a stone. You can use whatever you like, including just stacking four of the same solution to get a big chunk of a single stat. The stone has ANOTHER experimentation roll to buff all the used stats at once.

You mob killers collect six more optional enhanced body parts from mobs, with their own custom stats. (Seven if its a centaur, but I imagine the stomach is just for food usage)  Based on the limited exposure I had to these drop in 5.3 when the skeletons still dropped them it appears the body parts have the same stats/rarity base relationship as an unexperimented philosopher's solution.

The necromancer, after collecting body parts from a gravedigger, ambrosia and a philosopher's stone from an alchemist, and looted body parts from combat players prepares body parts with their own base stats.

The necromancer then gets a final combine experimentation to buff those stats again to make the final vessel.

Two entire experimentation steps in necromancy are devoted to multiplying your core philosopher's stone selected boost. One of these steps multiplies your custom selected stats from the enhanced body part drops. There is no element of choice in these rolls. They are straight upgrades to the entire vessel and all stats used in the optional components.

 


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2 hours ago, yianni said:

 I'm confused on the vessel stats how are they so low but when we equip them our stats are so high? 

Classes grant a specific amount of base stats which aren't listed on these spreadsheets. Your Guinecian Duelist will start with different base stats than your Guinecian Knight, even if you have no training in any related skill lines.

Also note that vessel stats do not include the base stats from the racial disc. When you're looking at a vessel you're looking at stats that get added to the base class, training, and racial bonuses.

Also note that class trees ALSO grant attribute points that aren't expressed on these tables.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Great info!  Did you notice scaling differences depending on class/race?  Or scaling differences on that final combine based off the first point selection?  I’m seeing this like how resists work.  Raising 30% of 10 will give you a lot better return than 30% of 1.  

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19 minutes ago, Xpade said:

Great info!  Did you notice scaling differences depending on class/race?  Or scaling differences on that final combine based off the first point selection?  I’m seeing this like how resists work.  Raising 30% of 10 will give you a lot better return than 30% of 1.  

You can't scale based on race because the philosopher's stone is experimented on at the component level. I can make a philosopher's stone and that same stone is used for every race the same way the enhanced hands are used for every race. The solution for CON has a 3x larger base value than the other four stats.

The race stats are determined by the race itself, which is a recipie that requires body parts. The race's base stats are on those body parts, and the customization comes from the stats on the philosopher's stone and other optional parts. All of the experimentations involved have only one experimentation line: Grade, which simply multiplies all of them. The necromancer doesn't really cusomize a vessel in experimentation, only by selecting what stats to have an alchemist put on the stone for him, and which hands/eyes/bones/etc. to use (if any) from the optional parts.

Most of necromancy is actually alchemy and looting. The necromancer just assembles it all in to a vessel and buffs it with a final assembly experimentation.

Edited by PopeUrban

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12 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Classes grant a specific amount of base stats which aren't listed on these spreadsheets. Your Guinecian Duelist will start with different base stats than your Guinecian Knight, even if you have no training in any related skill lines.

Also note that vessel stats do not include the base stats from the racial disc. When you're looking at a vessel you're looking at stats that get added to the base class, training, and racial bonuses.

Also note that class trees ALSO grant attribute points that aren't expressed on these tables.

So vessel stats are just added to class/race stats?

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