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Talizar

Recall

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So I just watched a stream where a gatherer was killed and all his stuff taken.   Then the killers just recalled away to safety.  I hope this is just for testing and will not be allowed in live or this will be one big gankfest/recall game.  There needs to be some serious cool downs on this skill and it needs to take far more time to recall than it does and probably a 10 minute timer after combat.

The guy should never have been running around with that much stuff.

How is the guy supposed to gather his side and get his stuff back if people can just magically vanish in 60 seconds?

 

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27 minutes ago, Talizar said:

So I just watched a stream where a gatherer was killed and all his stuff taken.   Then the killers just recalled away to safety.  I hope this is just for testing and will not be allowed in live or this will be one big gankfest/recall game.  There needs to be some serious cool downs on this skill and it needs to take far more time to recall than it does and probably a 10 minute timer after combat.

The guy should never have been running around with that much stuff.

How is the guy supposed to gather his side and get his stuff back if people can just magically vanish in 60 seconds?

 

*in 10 seconds. with a 30 minute timer you can currently reset with a 20 seconds relog. its dumb.


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It should never have been put into the game. No fast travel of any kind. I see zero reasons to even permit the behavior in testing... with that said here is why they did it;

Quote

"help I'm stuck in terrain!"

That's the only reason it exists right now.


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It makes zero sense that recall is allowed to be on a 10 sec cast time within a risk vs reward environment. It does nothing to help the game. Seriously.. Does someone stuck need a quick recall? No, they don't. Meanwhile its short cast time is easy to use as a "get out of jail" free card and shifts the Risk in the users favor.

1 hour ago, Talizar said:

 

How is the guy supposed to gather his side and get his stuff back if people can just magically vanish in 60 seconds?

 

And that's exactly the issue. With the way stealth is, currently, and the way recall functions there would be no way this game would survive launch if it released today(obviously barring the lack of content). There should always be a chance for a player to recover his items, unless he simply gets caught in a bad spot(like being in enemy territory). Successful ganking shouldn't be a guaranteed collection of goods because safely escaping is a few seconds away. 

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I liked the recall function in ShadowBane.  Though I would have increased the cast time to like 20 or 30 seconds and any movement or damage resulted in it being cancelled and a burnt recall scroll.


 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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25 minutes ago, AceSiN said:

It makes zero sense that recall is allowed to be on a 10 sec cast time within a risk vs reward environment. It does nothing to help the game. Seriously.. Does someone stuck need a quick recall? No, they don't. Meanwhile its short cast time is easy to use as a "get out of jail" free card and shifts the Risk in the users favor.

And that's exactly the issue. With the way stealth is, currently, and the way recall functions there would be no way this game campaigns that allow looting would survive launch if it released today(obviously barring the lack of content). There should always be a chance for a player to recover his items, unless he simply gets caught in a bad spot(like being in enemy territory). Successful ganking shouldn't be a guaranteed collection of goods because safely escaping is a few seconds away. 

Let me fix that a bit for you.

Many rulesets are possible.  But yea, it's a rather unfortunate band-aid to the stuck problem.  

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2 hours ago, Talizar said:

So I just watched a stream where a gatherer was killed and all his stuff taken.   Then the killers just recalled away to safety.  I hope this is just for testing and will not be allowed in live or this will be one big gankfest/recall game.  There needs to be some serious cool downs on this skill and it needs to take far more time to recall than it does and probably a 10 minute timer after combat.

The guy should never have been running around with that much stuff.

How is the guy supposed to gather his side and get his stuff back if people can just magically vanish in 60 seconds?

 

 

33 minutes ago, Talizar said:

Stealth classes are for another topic but meh...Kinda like snipers.  I think the do more harm than good.

You have a hell of a lot more to fear from champs, etc than you do from any stealther

These people who keep moaning about stealth aught to learn how to counter it rather than just moan about a change to it


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40 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

 

You have a hell of a lot more to fear from champs, etc than you do from any stealther

These people who keep moaning about stealth aught to learn how to counter it rather than just moan about a change to it

What class to you mainly play?  Assassin?

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2 hours ago, Talizar said:

What class to you mainly play?  Assassin?

I play duelist, Assassin or Ranger depending on my mood.

If I really wanted to faceroll people I'd play champ :)


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Door rings, an important phone call, etc is why recall is important.  You can always log out and log back in when needed but its not exactly the same. The boring part of an adventure is the return trip. I like the recall from UO, and the stones you could mark.


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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

In a game with LOCAL BANKING recall probably shouldn't be a thing, period. 

/stuck command which ports you 20m away seems like a better idea for getting stuck in terrain. Functionality is already in place with wood elf dissipate.

Add in stuck which does that

AND

/recall drops ALL YOUR GEAR.

Gives you a local option to get out of a jam, or you can head to the beachhead but totally naked.

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

In a game with LOCAL BANKING recall probably shouldn't be a thing, period. 

/stuck command which ports you 20m away seems like a better idea for getting stuck in terrain. Functionality is already in place with wood elf dissipate.

not a bad idea, since the intention was a fix for people getting stuck. Also you could make it a 2-3 minute cast time, If its being used to get you unstuck 2-3 minutes isn't a bad time to wait.

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6 minutes ago, Venark said:

not a bad idea, since the intention was a fix for people getting stuck. Also you could make it a 2-3 minute cast time, If its being used to get you unstuck 2-3 minutes isn't a bad time to wait.

People would probably use /stuck to bypass walls if it functioned as a 20m blink though. With a long cast time and a random direction maybe that would largely prevent it from being used in this way. 

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34 minutes ago, blazzen said:

People would probably use /stuck to bypass walls if it functioned as a 20m blink though. With a long cast time and a random direction maybe that would largely prevent it from being used in this way. 

2m up, and 2m random direction should cover being stuck 99% of the time. 

Increase the range and change the direction if you somehow end up in the same spot after the trigger and you have a solution to the real problem.

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I think recall itself is a fine mechanism that's a bit overpowered due to its current implementation and the current testing environment. If ACE plans to keep it long term (and I think they should, with some modifications just for user QOL) I think it can be a solid "I need to go but don't have time to walk back to a safer logout location" power for user QOL.

Systems Issues

Currently all loot is designed to be carried in an inventory, and that inventory can be recalled. We know this is not the intent long term, as we've been told on multiple occasions that caravans are intended to be absolutely required for many forms of loot transit. You can't recall your caravan.

The map is extremely small right now, leading to a poor opportunity cost for the travel time of recall. As you can cross the entire 5.4 map extremely rapidly, there is little time or area control lost for recalling. Balloon that out to something the size of the intended map, and you see a situation much more like shadowbane, where often recalling (and being summoned, which was reverse recalling) and the time and risk required to get back to the hostile territory where you ganked the guy in the first place was often such a monumental downside to using it that even if it had instant cast time and no cooldown it still would have been left unused for a lot of people's play time.

Currently it can be reset by relogging. Combined with the other two factors it is a virtually risk free maneuver that can be used repeatedly and often by both the ganker and the harvester.

The beach head is currently usable as a primary banking location. This is bad and needs to go for multiple reasons. This is one of those reasons. Allowing people a risk-free area with a bank is bad and leads to people undervaluing objectives they should be valuing. Beach heads should only have retrieval chests, not banks.

You can currently spirit bank from literally anywhere, including the beach head. This is another problematic part of the current testing model which is probably not final nor intended. This is just plain silly in a game predicated on the idea of loot hoarding being a pvp motivator. The ability to spirit bank in the EK has the same issues as having a regular bank there it is too easy to use recall's destination to safely store loot.

Current Implementation Issues

The current cast time of 10 seconds is too short. You can literally start casting it the moment an enemy comes in to view, and finish before a twisted bard speed buffed enemy can actually run to your position. Casting time needs to be far longer like 30-45 seconds at least.

The opportunity cost of interrupted casts is nonexistent. Currently you are encouraged to try it because failing the cast has no down side. Move and cancel the cast? No problem, you can recast it moments later. Knocked down? Recast it again when you get up. Taking damage? Keep casting it, as long as you don't literally die or get hard CCd you'll finish it. The difficulty of preventing a recall cast is too high, and the danger of wasting the cast is nonexistent. The way it works actively encourages someone seeking to leave a fight to attempt to do so if there is even a sliver of a change they MIGHT succeed. Casting it should suppress all buffs, and failing to cast should put it on full cooldown. You should be discouraged from trying to recall in a dangerous situation heavily.

The cooldown is too short. Even if all of the above issues were fixed, 30 minutes is simply not a reasonable cooldown for a "once a session" style power designed to give you a way to get to a safe place before you log out rather than any time you're too lazy to run for five minutes. It needs that cooldown doubled at least.

It is free. Recall probably needs an active cost attached like SB style crafted scrolls (they'd make great pvp loot!) or a penalty in exports (You called in a favor from the gods, they're putting it on your account) or some other mechanism that attaches an overall economic cost to them.

Edited by PopeUrban

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