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State of Crafting


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State of Crafting in my humble opinion. @thomasblair

Loving the crafting system so far. There has been such an impact with stats that matter now! Never was a crafter before this game and now I'm hooked! 

Here some things I consider worth... considering. 

Crafting Options

Currently, when crafting, we can use one to as many pips as we want. If you go 50% or more you get a 50% bump in the result of experimentation.

As a crafter that has crafted thousands of items I can tell you that this leaves only 2 options. 1 Pip at a time or 50% at a time. Nothing else really makes any sense.

This has nothing to do with factories. I get that using more, even all the pips, will result in much, much faster runs. This has to do with options for a crafter.

Why not allow the crafter to gauge their own risk/reward? Why not allow them to use 2/8 pips, 3/8 pips or so on and gain some sort of bonus?

Currently I have 14 pips. I can do 1 at a time or 7 at a time. If that is as intended  you should just give us 2 or 3 buttons and avoid the pips altogether.

  • ·       Button 1: [Low risk] gives results using 1 pip at a time with 0 risk
  • ·       Button 2: [50% risk] gives results based on 50% of your pips

And maybe

  • ·       Button 3: [100% risk] gives results based on 100% of your pips (btw, wtf is 100% risk? Shouldn’t I fail every time if that’s the case?)

What I’m trying to get at is that the current system gives you no reason to EVER use anything but 1 pip or 50% of your pips. Please see this.

 

Degrees of Success

Currently, this is where it stands

  • Crit fail – throw away
  • Fail – throw away
  • Moderate success – throw away
  • Success – throw away
  • Good Success – Inventory never to be used
  • Great Success – OMG epic
  • Amazing Success – I am the God of Crafting!!

I feel there should be more of a gradual slope between success and good success.

Final combine.

Currently, the stats on parts of a crafted item have little to do with the final results. The final result is too heavily influenced by the final experimental rolls. I could have complete crap going into the final combine but if I get an amazing roll then that weapon is my new top of the line.

The reverse is also true. If I have pieces that are all amazing rolls, all the way through but end up with success then it goes in the discard pile. Prior mats and their stats should matter more to the final combine.

Thanks,

BD

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I would say this is fairly accurate. I too was not much of a crafter until this latest skill wipe and I've been going pretty hard.

Here's some of my additional thoughts.



Gambling: 
The current experimentation system punishes highly trained workers using lower quality materials. They have less chance to go for the 50% risk gamble (which I'm not a fan of)
It seems pretty silly to seek out a lesser crafter to better craft the lower end materials.

A method I've heard discussed regarding this is a scaling risk/reward system where the reward is directly based off the risk involved, up to a point, but even that I disagree with.
I don't like feeling like I am gambling with my time invested (because that's what the materials in a game truly represent-time investment to gather and craft)

Personally when I am crafting 'safely' I use 2 pips at a time.
It shaves a bit of time off the craft time and gives less chance for a critical failure due to less rolls being placed IMO.
I suppose I shall have to test 1pip vs 2pip vs 3pip 'safe' sometime.



When I see a Success or a 'Moderate Success' I don't FEEL SUCCESSFUL! 

I have gotten to a point where I can produce 'decent' quality product by SafePipping. It feels to me like it wastes much less materials and gives consistent results. I do not get to see the best of the best this way of course, but until blueprints are brought in I can't get reliable repeats on any of that. The total value is better as well imo.

Say I make 5 weapons. A moderate success is 100top, good is 110, and amazing is 120. If I run the risk and get 4 moderates and 1 amazing the total for those 5 is 520. If I safepip I can get 5 110s for a 550 total. Sure it's not a huge total difference but it provides a consistent yield and I don't feel like 80% of my material use resulted in trash. Because of this it is my preferred method.

Perhaps in time when I am overrun with materials, or if it was requested of me ("your mats your risk") I might gamble but I would not enjoy it.
When Blueprints are brought in there will be more reason to do so.


Weapons vs Armor Choice
Weapons are still pretty one dimensional in terms of Crafting. You basically have 3 Lines for a Final Combine-Sheen, Damage and Durability.
Durability is pretty much ignored because of the FLAWED mechanics of Durability loss currently in game. 

Tools are the only thing Durability truly matters on right now!

Armor (well Chest Pieces since that's all the Mitigation is on...not great IMO) however has 5 lines. Sheen-Physical Armor-Elemental Armor-Organic Armor-Durability
This makes choices when Crafting Armor Chests all the more important. You don't get any more Pips for Crafting Armor so your choices matter more.
Do you maximize Resists at the Expense of Sheen?
It's still quite shallow at the end of the day though and Durability has the exact same issue as with Weapons.



Assembly and Experimentation Chance:
With the implementation of scaling difficulty things changed up a bit, some for the better and others for the worse IMO.

I don't think there's much reason to see Critical Failures on an Assembly or Experiment when the difficulty listed is 5 and you have 80-100 Skill! It's frustrating and random.

Even with 100 Assembly/Experiment Chance I am seeing consistent low rolls in regards to Purple and Orange quality materials. 100 is CAP
This is effectively punishing those who try to utilize the rarest materials with the best potential creating an even higher scarcity of worthwhile weapons made out of those materials.
While I can understand this as being proper for the undertrained, it should not be so for a character who has reached the heights of success.
The Cap for Experimentation points is 20. With no Crafting gear being implemented pushing past 15 is impossible. And there's no Crafting Armor combo in game right now afaik...
However Assembly/Experiment chance CAPs are reached and not providing enough benefit.
Perhaps the Assembly/Experiment chance could be adjusted so that the CAP is higher, requiring that beautiful crafting set and table to actually get there and actually making it feel like you're a Master Crafter.

I believe a complete Master Craftsman should see Good results most of the time, with a decent amount of Greats and the difference in Amazing rolls should be Night/Day with someone who is their lesser. Using Epic and Orange quality material could downgrade that some, but not to the current amount it does.





Crafting Speed:
Currently Crafting feels in a really good spot as far as Speed goes in my opinion. It still takes me 20 minutes to create a set of armor with having all the required crafting training and stations and materials on one character. That's a pretty big chunk of time to be looking at a pretty boring UI element!

I understand Crafting is going to be slowed down, which automated may not be a problem. But the time of a player is the most valuable, if a player feels their time is wasted or draining doing something then they won't enjoy it. Gaming is about having fun, enjoying the activity, and if a person is not having fun in a game they will stop playing.

Also, if Crafting is slowed down resources are going to pool in an even worse way than they do.
Currently harvesting can gather materials as fast as, if not faster than, they can be crafted by a single crafter.
If this is slowed down this will only get worse, but if automated systems are in it might allow excess material to bleed away into product while the player plays different aspects of the game.

Crafting Stations:
I saw something similar mentioned in a Keep feedback thread regarding having better looking Crafting Stations at Keeps and Castles.
Some of those I run with have been discussing how SWG had quality to its Crafting Stations. They were effectively items that gave you bonuses for using them.
I hope Crowfall can integrate a similar system, perhaps allowing Experimentation on the Crafting Station crafts to increase Experimentation/Assembly/Speed etc.
In this way you'd want to use a good crafting station to get those bonuses.

Overall, I am excited about Crafting in Crowfall but strongly dislike the weight of RNG elements involved. 

Edited by Scorn

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Thanks guys,

Very interesting points and information. What you both say is true and informative but, if I may, wish to raise an issue about crafting. Now, on the understanding, Crowfall IS a PVP centric game. That is a given. Thing is that being a pure crafter it is getting harder and harder to farm the required materials to craft.

Case in point: - Tyranny Us East is the present server I have chosen. Good community and no issues with them. My problem is that since Crowfall is combat driven, as a whole, when pure crafters' are trying to gather the mats, and even in groups, they are being hunted by combat skilled players in high spec gear. It is regular now for 2, or 3, stealthers to position themselves around the specific farming points to gank crafters. At times there has even been other well trained and geared classes. This has made crafting less fun, and quite frankly, a lot of crafters' I have spoken too are considering ceasing crafting because of the frequency of this happening. The situation is becoming map wide, as crafters' try other farming areas, but these 'hunters' have started to go there also. It is getting very disheartening for pure, and even some Craft/ Combat, players.

On the evening of the 25/02/2018 I was watching a Crowfall streamer - Shadiv. He and his 2 friends are crafters but with some combat skills. A half-giant, full combat and high spec geared, warrior ganked them all easily and they could not damage the player. Kudos the the player.

Crowfall is PvP BUT it also has crafting. Has the game become constructed just for Combat trained, in which I believe, as this could possibly, not kill off, damage crafting and curtail pure crafters?

Crowfall is PvP but it is also Crafting, as that mechanic is in the game. Should there be some form of game mechanic balancing?

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A good point made. Personally the reason I love Crowfall and look forward to it furthering development is that it feels like an RTS...just super zoomed in and slowed down.
Each player is a unit contributing to their 'team' winning the overall battle. Whatever a player does has an impact, be it harvesting resources, crafting upgrades or combat.

That being said it makes the 'team' aspect of Crowfall that much more important, it is not very friendly to fresh players or solo players.
Hopefully ACE can make it more so with variant rulesets and clean tutorial structure/game primer.

I actually participated/led a stealth gank group intended to hit the enemy harvesters inside Forts/Keeps for a bit. We certainly gained more in resource wealth than we lost due to a few deaths in our few kills but it was the REACTION of the enemy team that got me smiling. After it became established that we were camping this crafting spot they had active players guarding the crafters. We SANDBOXED up Guard Duty for them and it felt AWESOME. There was clear and heavy player interaction on both sides for this to occur. 

With the current campaign set ups it's not that difficult to export raw materials and import finished goods crafted in the safety of an Eternal Kingdom. This could be addressed in time with lower Import/Export values on Maps as well as only allowing Import/Exports at specific spots. Also, perhaps Crafting Stations in the more dangerous campaigns could provide better results. All of this would increase the desire to guard your harvester/crafters out in the campaign.

Again though, the player without a team will suffer.
And the current mechanics DO NOTHING to hamper the "Uncle Bob" scenario from arising. I hope in time this is all addressed and finds a nice middle ground.

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1 hour ago, Scorn said:

A good point made. Personally the reason I love Crowfall and look forward to it furthering development is that it feels like an RTS...just super zoomed in and slowed down.
Each player is a unit contributing to their 'team' winning the overall battle. Whatever a player does has an impact, be it harvesting resources, crafting upgrades or combat.

Better protect your SCVs (harvesters)!

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14 hours ago, Scorn said:

Some of those I run with have been discussing how SWG had quality to its Crafting Stations.

Yes, sounds like that is the plan for CF as well. We also haven't seen the Crafting Disciplines yet, I'm very curious what those will be like.

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1 hour ago, miraluna said:

Yes, sounds like that is the plan for CF as well. We also haven't seen the Crafting Disciplines yet, I'm very curious what those will be like.

I have a feeling the crafting disciplines will more or less just be replacements for the pre-alpha test crafting potions. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Crafting Mechanic Idea

When players are in 'Survival Mode'  - (gathering, and farming):

1) Receive an 'Harmonic Resonance Shield', just gave it a name - kinda zen with the land, this is a buff that makes crafters' invulnerable for a short time, or withstands a limited amount of damage. This allows Crafters' to scamper about with limited protection or can act as an escape mechanism.

2) When within a certain distance of 'Resource Nodes' this Harmonic Resonance Shield' is unlimited. At nodes the natural forces there are stronger so the 'Harmonic Resonance Shield' is limitless. This enables Crafters' to gather unhindered. In a group, or collection, of 'Resource Nodes' the shield could cover a wider area - ie at the Mine or Lumber or where there are more than one in a certain proximity to each other. If nodes have been wiped the area they were in still emits the shield due to natural forces underground and to the nodes above ground only being the 'tip of the iceberg'. Feel the vibes man!!

3) Leaving 'Survival Mode' into 'Combat Mode' - (Punching people in the Face) immediately causes 'Harmonic Dissonance', you lost your Zen with the land, so the 'Personal Harmonic Shield', and the 'Harmonic Shield' of the nodes, immediately evaporate.

4) When leaving 'Combat Mode' to go back into 'Survival Mode' there is a cool-down before the 'Personal' and 'Nodal 'Harmonic Shields' re configure. Takes time to get your 'Zen' back.

5) The 'Personal Harmonic Resonance Shield' recharges over time, if it does not take damage or is taking damage less than recharge rate, and fully recharges at Nodes.

This shielding could be enhanced, in a limited way, by Skills and, or, Disciplines.

Guys it only and idea. Is it a feasible mechanic that could be employed? is it practical? and yes it possibly could also be abused in some ways. What are you feelings and ideas on this?

Edited by Ipimus
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20 hours ago, Ipimus said:

Crafting Mechanic Idea

When players are in 'Survival Mode'  - (gathering, and farming):

1) Receive an 'Harmonic Resonance Shield', just gave it a name - kinda zen with the land, this is a buff that makes crafters' invulnerable for a short time, or withstands a limited amount of damage. This allows Crafters' to scamper about with limited protection or can act as an escape mechanism.

2) When within a certain distance of 'Resource Nodes' this Harmonic Resonance Shield' is unlimited. At nodes the natural forces there are stronger so the 'Harmonic Resonance Shield' is limitless. This enables Crafters' to gather unhindered. In a group, or collection, of 'Resource Nodes' the shield could cover a wider area - ie at the Mine or Lumber or where there are more than one in a certain proximity to each other. If nodes have been wiped the area they were in still emits the shield due to natural forces underground and to the nodes above ground only being the 'tip of the iceberg'. Feel the vibes man!!

3) Leaving 'Survival Mode' into 'Combat Mode' - (Punching people in the Face) immediately causes 'Harmonic Dissonance', you lost your Zen with the land, so the 'Personal Harmonic Shield', and the 'Harmonic Shield' of the nodes, immediately evaporate.

4) When leaving 'Combat Mode' to go back into 'Survival Mode' there is a cool-down before the 'Personal' and 'Nodal 'Harmonic Shields' re configure. Takes time to get your 'Zen' back.

5) The 'Personal Harmonic Resonance Shield' recharges over time, if it does not take damage or is taking damage less than recharge rate, and fully recharges at Nodes.

This shielding could be enhanced, in a limited way, by Skills and, or, Disciplines.

Guys it only and idea. Is it a feasible mechanic that could be employed? is it practical? and yes it possibly could also be abused in some ways. What are you feelings and ideas on this?

If you want to be a crafter, be a crafter. You don't need to be a harvester. Work with your group/guild/faction to get the resources you need.

Harvesters should NEVER be able to gather unhindered. It defeats the entire point of the game (fighting over resources). Other players are supposed to attack you when you are harvesting. Other players are supposed to take your stuff. It's your job, along with your group/guild/faction, to keep them from doing that, or to do it to them.

If you want to be safe when harvesting, bring people with you to protect you. 

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I wish the risk we took mattered to the bonus rather than a flat 50% for 50% and above. Then it would feel more skill based. I wish in the training section of the pattern lines we got a toggle that would turn off failures for the corresponding level of items. As in 5th pip of intermediate leatherworking. Turns off Assembly failure, makes failure 50% less likely and crit failure never happen on white quality item combines. As you go up the training pattern line you get the protection from the BS. When you master the last pip of the last node failures for all items are a thing of the past.  Success is a big enough failure.

I also wish you could skill psat the 100 cap and get bonuses for the points past the cap. If I have 125 blacksmithing skill then I have a 25% chance added to the rolls vrs success on the easy stuff and such. 

A fully trained master blacksmith should never ever fail a white iron bar in any manner. They should all come out good or better. As you get to harder things of course the lesser stuff comes into play.

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1 hour ago, srathor said:

I wish the risk we took mattered to the bonus rather than a flat 50% for 50% and above. Then it would feel more skill based. I wish in the training section of the pattern lines we got a toggle that would turn off failures for the corresponding level of items. As in 5th pip of intermediate leatherworking. Turns off Assembly failure, makes failure 50% less likely and crit failure never happen on white quality item combines. As you go up the training pattern line you get the protection from the BS. When you master the last pip of the last node failures for all items are a thing of the past.  Success is a big enough failure.

I also wish you could skill psat the 100 cap and get bonuses for the points past the cap. If I have 125 blacksmithing skill then I have a 25% chance added to the rolls vrs success on the easy stuff and such. 

A fully trained master blacksmith should never ever fail a white iron bar in any manner. They should all come out good or better. As you get to harder things of course the lesser stuff comes into play.

On this same note, If I have 5th pip of intermediate leatherworking, my crafts should not turn out better than someone with all that training. If I hand over the mats to make an item to a 95% leatherworker, it should come out better than what I could do with just the 5th pip of intermediate. Higher skill should raise the lower and higher level of possibilities a bit more than it does now. 

Edited by Spawl
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So I experimented.

1) made basic hammers with basic materials.

2) Crafted a few metal ingots with increasingly better ores white, green, blue - till i ran out of ore

3) Crafted intermediate hammers with ingots

4) Used all pips at 50% till I got 'Successful' results only. No higher and no lower.

The above made no, or little difference, to finished hammers stats. So does it matter what are used to construct intermediate weaps?

Of course this is just a summary and it was not exhaustive research, just exhaustive on mats.

Arkade -  not everyone plays in groups, or wants to. Should solo players be penalised?

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23 minutes ago, Ipimus said:

not everyone plays in groups, or wants to. Should solo players be penalised?

The point of an interdependent economic and social model is interdependence. The game is designed first and foremost around rewarding and encouraging systems of player relationships. For that to happen players have to need one another. The game is not penalizing you for playing alone. You are penalizing yourself for knowingly walking in to a field full of rocks and people that want to kill you for them without any backup or exit plan if stuff goes south on you.

It is not the game's responsibility to keep you safe from being ganked. It is your responsibility to keep yourself safe from being ganked by being stronger, faster, stealthier, or smarter than the people that want to gank you. The rules do not change just because you're a harvester or crafter. The game is designed for you to risk being robbed in order to make a living.

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Though should that interdependent economic/ social model be equivalent to a global model wherein it becomes an group dependent oppression on those who practice freewill and spirit in their definition of gameplay? Understanding the games overall incumbent mechanic philosophy of PvP should there not be a system by which those, whether in the major/ minor populate, can have relative possibility of practicing their said 'Self' style without being the relativistic constant targets of groups of players whom relish in the 'Oppressive nature' that 'Group Ganking' is? Therein, though, accepting that, in their own cognizance, it has to be accepted the self risk that they take perchance they would become, and more likely, to be farmed.

This is, by no means an argument in any shape or form, but a possible treatise for players who chose to have that proverbial play style as not everyone includes them-self in, nor partakes/ enjoys, in the 'Group mechanic'.

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19 minutes ago, Ipimus said:

Though should that interdependent economic/ social model be equivalent to a global model wherein it becomes an group dependent oppression on those who practice freewill and spirit in their definition of gameplay? Understanding the games overall incumbent mechanic philosophy of PvP should there not be a system by which those, whether in the major/ minor populate, can have relative possibility of practicing their said 'Self' style without being the relativistic constant targets of groups of players whom relish in the 'Oppressive nature' that 'Group Ganking' is? Therein, though, accepting that, in their own cognizance, it has to be accepted the self risk that they take perchance they would become, and more likely, to be farmed.

This is, by no means an argument in any shape or form, but a possible treatise for players who chose to have that proverbial play style as not everyone includes them-self in, nor partakes/ enjoys, in the 'Group mechanic'.

So many overused SJW pontification words.  Oppression, Freewill, "self style" , bla bla bla. Judgmental and Nauseating.

Those are not the goals of this games development or plan. 

Your coming in here basically suggesting that every possible play style be supported, which is not only completely impossible, it is also not something that ACE has ever even hinted at being a goal.

You don't play monopoly and complain that everyone should just be the bank and have as much money as they want, or rent be free.  Scarcity of board space and funds is part of the game, and player cooperation and interdependence has always been one of the primary aims of Crowfall. 

So in short, NO, they should not go out of their way to support it, regardless of your opinion on that being "oppression".

You have plenty of solo and semi cooperative games out there support that play style. Crowfall has been, and hopefully always will be, something else for those who want to play a game that requires interdependencies.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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23 minutes ago, Ipimus said:

Though should that interdependent economic/ social model be equivalent to a global model wherein it becomes an group dependent oppression on those who practice freewill and spirit in their definition of gameplay? Understanding the games overall incumbent mechanic philosophy of PvP should there not be a system by which those, whether in the major/ minor populate, can have relative possibility of practicing their said 'Self' style without being the relativistic constant targets of groups of players whom relish in the 'Oppressive nature' that 'Group Ganking' is? Therein, though, accepting that, in their own cognizance, it has to be accepted the self risk that they take perchance they would become, and more likely, to be farmed.

This is, by no means an argument in any shape or form, but a possible treatise for players who chose to have that proverbial play style as not everyone includes them-self in, nor partakes/ enjoys, in the 'Group mechanic'.

What I gather from this post of yours is that you're complaining about being ganked while out solo gathering/exploring. Guess what man, it's going to be like that at launch. It's expected by a lot of the regular testers that small groups or bands of players will roam around for resources, small pvp fights, and ganking any enemy player that's out on their own. If that isn't something you like then don't play test and don't play the game at launch. Stage left exit is to your left.

Crowfall isn't a hand holding game. Full stop. Trying to turn it into anything else is a waste of time and energy.

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2 hours ago, Ipimus said:

So I experimented.

1) made basic hammers with basic materials.

2) Crafted a few metal ingots with increasingly better ores white, green, blue - till i ran out of ore

3) Crafted intermediate hammers with ingots

4) Used all pips at 50% till I got 'Successful' results only. No higher and no lower.

The above made no, or little difference, to finished hammers stats. So does it matter what are used to construct intermediate weaps?

Of course this is just a summary and it was not exhaustive research, just exhaustive on mats.

Arkade -  not everyone plays in groups, or wants to. Should solo players be penalised?

White greens and blues and purples and Legendaries have no lift to starting crafting stats. Only Grey to white gives a lift.
It used to not be this way. they broke it in the 5.3 release. 

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