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State of Crafting


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1 hour ago, Ipimus said:

Though should that interdependent economic/ social model be equivalent to a global model wherein it becomes an group dependent oppression on those who practice freewill and spirit in their definition of gameplay? Understanding the games overall incumbent mechanic philosophy of PvP should there not be a system by which those, whether in the major/ minor populate, can have relative possibility of practicing their said 'Self' style without being the relativistic constant targets of groups of players whom relish in the 'Oppressive nature' that 'Group Ganking' is? Therein, though, accepting that, in their own cognizance, it has to be accepted the self risk that they take perchance they would become, and more likely, to be farmed.

This is, by no means an argument in any shape or form, but a possible treatise for players who chose to have that proverbial play style as not everyone includes them-self in, nor partakes/ enjoys, in the 'Group mechanic'.

No. The entire game stops working properly if harvesters are not constant targets of people ganking harvesters.

What you're espousing is the rationale which led to Trammel in UO. Ask Tyrant how he felt about that decision then and how he feels about it now. I could go find the thread but the gist of it is that what Tyrant discovered is that separating players to "do their own thing" to such a severe degree broke the social structure of the game, and eventually saw not justt gankers, but harvesters as well leave the game in massive numbers. Reason? They were bored.

That system of interdependence revolves around a "wolves and sheep" dynamic.

Harvesters are sheep. In order to convince people to actually continue to play sheep, there has to be something valuable to gain as sheep. In this case that valuable thing is base materials.

People ganking those harvesters are wolves. In order to keep wolves interested the sheep need to be worth killing and they need to exist in large enough numbers that the wolves don't get bored.

And the people that play one off of the other and keep the whole system running are crafters. Crafters buy from the harvester and sell to the ganker. Crafters keep the wheel spinning, and the fact that wheel spins is what causes gear to be broken and lost, which requires the crafter to buy more materials and sell more gear, and on and on it goes.

And the MOST important part of this cycle is that both the wolves and sheep need something the other has. Your professional wolves lack the proper harvesting skills. Your proper sheep lack the proper combat skills and gear. Most players are somewhere in the middle, or play different roles at different times, but mind you no PvP game lasts for long when you separate the sheep from the wolves. The sheep get bored with a repetitive task with no danger attached, and the wolves get bored when the only thing to fight is other wolves who aren't carrying any loot.

Despite Crowfall being a massive throne war simulator with overarching large structural team rules in campaigns, that wolves and sheep dynamic is vital for the game to remain engaging for everyone when those massive siege battles or campaign deciding caravan runs aren't happening. That dance of wolves and sheep is what informs everything else. its what controls how risky your strategies can be based upon how much you've earned or stolen, and thus how big your war chest is. It is the most important mechanism in a PvP game, and messing with it is the reason a lot of PvP games fail outright. Successful people in these games figure out that if you can collect together enough wolves, sheep, and crafters, you can control the whole cycle.

Unsuccessful people try to define themselves in little boxes and complain when they can't "just harvest" or "just craft" or "just pvp" or "just solo" or "just group" because its "not fair"

That's the point. Its not supposed to be fair. The fact that it isn't fair is what makes it interesting, what makes you learn names of friends and enemies and what keeps you logging in for revenge or camaraderie. The fact that it isn't fair is why you're here in stead of playing something with a narrower focus and lower stakes like Civ, or Quake, or Call of Duty. People don't come to PvP player looting games to play a fair game.

Your job is to make the game unfair in your favor by cleverly using the same tools as everyone else.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

What you're espousing is the rationale which led to Trammel in UO. Ask Tyrant how he felt about that decision then and how he feels about it now. I could go find the thread but the gist of it is that what Tyrant discovered is that separating players to "do their own thing" to such a severe degree broke the social structure of the game, and eventually saw not justt gankers, but harvesters as well leave the game in massive numbers. Reason? They were bored.

 

Cheers

 

From the thread (Bold mine)

Quote

We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.

 

So our game won't be for everyone, and we certainly don't want people playing who aren't enjoying the experience.  This is supposed to be an activity we experience as fun after all!

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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4 hours ago, Ipimus said:

Arkade -  not everyone plays in groups, or wants to. Should solo players be penalised?

Should the primary focus of player conflict be modified to accommodate your desire to play solo without being attacked?

This isn't a solo game. If you want to play solo, you run the risk that you will get attacked and lose your stuff. That isn't going to change. The entire game is built around this idea.

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First off. No I was NOT COMPLAINING as some, appear, seem led to believe. I was replying to PopeUrban's post.  Thanks to all who replied. It is great to see others views and ideas. Healthy discussion but this forum is primarily about crafting and NOT soloing so MB for starting this in the wrong forum.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 01/03/2018 at 10:19 PM, PopeUrban said:

No. The entire game stops working properly if harvesters are not constant targets of people ganking harvesters.

What you're espousing is the rationale which led to Trammel in UO. Ask Tyrant how he felt about that decision then and how he feels about it now. I could go find the thread but the gist of it is that what Tyrant discovered is that separating players to "do their own thing" to such a severe degree broke the social structure of the game, and eventually saw not justt gankers, but harvesters as well leave the game in massive numbers. Reason? They were bored.

That system of interdependence revolves around a "wolves and sheep" dynamic.

Harvesters are sheep. In order to convince people to actually continue to play sheep, there has to be something valuable to gain as sheep. In this case that valuable thing is base materials.

People ganking those harvesters are wolves. In order to keep wolves interested the sheep need to be worth killing and they need to exist in large enough numbers that the wolves don't get bored.

And the people that play one off of the other and keep the whole system running are crafters. Crafters buy from the harvester and sell to the ganker. Crafters keep the wheel spinning, and the fact that wheel spins is what causes gear to be broken and lost, which requires the crafter to buy more materials and sell more gear, and on and on it goes.

And the MOST important part of this cycle is that both the wolves and sheep need something the other has. Your professional wolves lack the proper harvesting skills. Your proper sheep lack the proper combat skills and gear. Most players are somewhere in the middle, or play different roles at different times, but mind you no PvP game lasts for long when you separate the sheep from the wolves. The sheep get bored with a repetitive task with no danger attached, and the wolves get bored when the only thing to fight is other wolves who aren't carrying any loot.

Despite Crowfall being a massive throne war simulator with overarching large structural team rules in campaigns, that wolves and sheep dynamic is vital for the game to remain engaging for everyone when those massive siege battles or campaign deciding caravan runs aren't happening. That dance of wolves and sheep is what informs everything else. its what controls how risky your strategies can be based upon how much you've earned or stolen, and thus how big your war chest is. It is the most important mechanism in a PvP game, and messing with it is the reason a lot of PvP games fail outright. Successful people in these games figure out that if you can collect together enough wolves, sheep, and crafters, you can control the whole cycle.

Unsuccessful people try to define themselves in little boxes and complain when they can't "just harvest" or "just craft" or "just pvp" or "just solo" or "just group" because its "not fair"

That's the point. Its not supposed to be fair. The fact that it isn't fair is what makes it interesting, what makes you learn names of friends and enemies and what keeps you logging in for revenge or camaraderie. The fact that it isn't fair is why you're here in stead of playing something with a narrower focus and lower stakes like Civ, or Quake, or Call of Duty. People don't come to PvP player looting games to play a fair game.

Your job is to make the game unfair in your favor by cleverly using the same tools as everyone else.

What you seem to forget though is that pre-Trammel UO was losing player numbers and the introduction of Trammel actually increased the numbers of people playing UO from that point onwards. Whilst your wolf / sheep analogy is a good one what you have to remember is for the balance to be maintained long term you have to make being a sheep 'risky' - you certainly don't make it 'unfair'

Mother Nature has demonstrated this fact time and again in the real world where if predators get too much of an unfair advantage then the prey either moves on or dies out completely. Either way the wolves end up dying out themselves when there is no longer any prey to eat.

You are right that the interplay between hunters and hunted is instrumental in the long term success of the game but this needs to be achieved through levels of risk and not through levels of fairness. Human nature dictates that anyone subjected to constant levels of unfairness remove themselves from that situation in one way or another. There always needs to be that element of a 'chance to escape' - the possibility that they may just get away occasionally to keep the sheep in the area. 

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can I offer a solution (exact numbers would need testing).

start with encumbrance. then make both armor and materials significantly heavier. to the tune of , you cant have both. allow harvesting gear a modification to the weight carried. you cant cast recall when in harvesting  gear or or overburdened.

next. allow a summon corpse spell. cast time is basically  (weight X distance). I'd allow a counter spell personally (channeled , adds to the casting time of a summon corpse spell if they share a target. requires being VERY close to the corpse.

next. while motherloads are meant to be in and around POIs , a sprinkling of higher end materials should be accessible in areas where a corpse summon should be a reasonable response.

why all this ? simple. if your doing a PvP raid. your going to need to bring harvesters to loot your enemies. if your out hunting harvesters , its for denial more then a greifing style looting of stuff. the predominant part is though is that it brings it to an organized LOGISTICAL battle. which , at its core is what crowfall is about.

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If and when the maps get a lot bigger, then the whole harvester/gank dynamic will change.  My guess is you will be able to solo/pair harvest with relatively low risk/low gain so long as you're a long way away from an enemy base.  This absolutely can happen with larger maps.  It will be a very brave (and probably very dead) wolf pack that's harvester ganking miles from home...

So rather than combat players having to guard harvesters, they can provide happy harvest grounds by developing a solid front line or by area domination.  I suspect the only players going deep behind enemy lines will be the mad or very small groups of assassins - mobility and stealth being the most important attributes here.  So you will be able to solo harvest (at nowhere near the efficiency of a group) if that's what floats your boat.

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Risk needs to match/balance reward. Safer areas should be lower quality nodes.  Numbers and rank being the way to factor quality. 

What should never happen is to have players who are solo or in a small group who have nothing to do in the things they want to do. Be it gathering, combat or crafting. 

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On 3/10/2018 at 5:52 AM, Badwolfe said:

What you seem to forget though is that pre-Trammel UO was losing player numbers and the introduction of Trammel actually increased the numbers of people playing UO from that point onwards. Whilst your wolf / sheep analogy is a good one what you have to remember is for the balance to be maintained long term you have to make being a sheep 'risky' - you certainly don't make it 'unfair'

Mother Nature has demonstrated this fact time and again in the real world where if predators get too much of an unfair advantage then the prey either moves on or dies out completely. Either way the wolves end up dying out themselves when there is no longer any prey to eat.

You are right that the interplay between hunters and hunted is instrumental in the long term success of the game but this needs to be achieved through levels of risk and not through levels of fairness. Human nature dictates that anyone subjected to constant levels of unfairness remove themselves from that situation in one way or another. There always needs to be that element of a 'chance to escape' - the possibility that they may just get away occasionally to keep the sheep in the area. 

Good point. I was mostly getting at the suggestion on deck being an argument for "fair" in a way that eliminates risk. I'd also argue that the way the skill trees and discs are laid out now is pretty friendly to the escape or self defense utility of the harvesters. Even in harvesting gear the benefits from race and class training as well as the base class kits are pretty darn good. Running around minmaxed for harvesting puts you at a bit of a disadvantage, sure, but its a pretty manageable one compared to a lot of systems. In EVE or SWG your harvesting specced character was often just waiting to get farmed without someone to intercede. If they keep training and gear on the same path they're on right now, your harvesting specced characters have a decent chance to defend themselves or create exits even with the disadvantages of having harvesting discs and gear equipped as long as they build those vessels intelligently. They're not as good at combat as combat toons, but they have a pretty darn fair shot at survival I'd say.

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Good point. I was mostly getting at the suggestion on deck being an argument for "fair" in a way that eliminates risk. I'd also argue that the way the skill trees and discs are laid out now is pretty friendly to the escape or self defense utility of the harvesters. Even in harvesting gear the benefits from race and class training as well as the base class kits are pretty darn good. Running around minmaxed for harvesting puts you at a bit of a disadvantage, sure, but its a pretty manageable one compared to a lot of systems. In EVE or SWG your harvesting specced character was often just waiting to get farmed without someone to intercede. If they keep training and gear on the same path they're on right now, your harvesting specced characters have a decent chance to defend themselves or create exits even with the disadvantages of having harvesting discs and gear equipped as long as they build those vessels intelligently. They're not as good at combat as combat toons, but they have a pretty darn fair shot at survival I'd say.

agreed :)

 

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