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Jjohnsin

Class breakdowns - my gripes

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i just wanted to put this up on the forums and ask everyone else what they think about it. I hate seeing each class have access to almost every important category when designing a class, and I think it shows in group combat (CC especially). Imo there is waaaay too much homogenization in class base kits, and when you look at it you can see how most classes are just reskins of other classes with maybe some different delivery mechanics. I'm not counting racial abilities (including dodges) in this as I wanted to focus on just the BASE kit so keep in mind these categories can be drastically improved with discipline choices, making it even worse. I wrote this up before assassin dropped but, they have access to every category as well. Apologies if i missed something, but I think it's a good overview.

 

TEMPLAR

→ CC: Stun, Knockdown, Knockdown

→ MOBILITY: Jump

→ Damage: Execute, Parry,

→ Defense: Parry, Divine Light, Holy Warrior, Faith, C power

→ Support: Devotion

 

KNIGHT

→ CC: Knockdown, Stun, Pull, Vacuum, Knockback, Stun

→ Mobility: Dash

→ Damage: Onslaught Combo, Retaliate, Severe Bleed, C power

→ Defense: Block, Second Wind, Noble Blood,

→ Suport:

 

MYRMIDON

→ CC: Knockdown, Stun, Root,

→ Mobility: Charge

→ Damage: LMB, Pulverize, Whirlwind, Taste for Blood

→ Defense: Berserk, Taste for Blood, C power

→ Support:

 

RANGER

→ CC: Snare, Suppress, Snare, Knockdown, Root, Knockup,

→ Mobility: Disengage Leap, Forest Step

→ Damage: Rapid Fire, LMB, Jab, Laceration, Ricochet Shot

→ Defense: C power, Archer’s Stake

→ Support: Bonus Damage, Armor Break, Armor Crack, Weapon Break, Flare Arrow,

 

DRUID

→ CC: Stum, Knockup, Snare, Knockback

→ Mobility:

→ Damage: Gaea’s Wail

→ Defense: Forest Whispers, Shroud, Bark Skin,

→ Support: Healing, Armor Break, Elemental Armor Break, Nature’s Avatar, C power

 

CLERIC

→ CC: Blind, Root, C power stuns

→ Mobility:

→ Damage: LMB, C power

→ Defense: Block, Retaliate, Hushed Prayer

→ Support: Auras, Healing, Block,


 

DUELIST

→ CC: Stun, Knockdown, Knockdown

→ Mobility: Tunnel

→ Damage: Impale, LMB, Pistol Shot, Pepperbox, Go For Broke

→ Defense: Redirect Pain, C power

→ Support: Expose debuff

 

CONFESSOR

→ CC: Stun, Knockdown, Blind, Knockup, Snare

→ Mobility:

→ Damage: Absolution, LMB, Tornados, Flames of Truth, Righteousness

→ Defense: C power

→ Support: Black Mantle

 

CHAMPION

→ CC: Suppress, Blind, Knockdown, Snare, Snare

→ Mobility: Leap x2

→ Damage: Stomp Combo (suppress/rend), severe bleed, Backfist, Massive Cleave, C power, Retaliate

→ Defense: Ultimate Warrior, Second Wind,

→ Support:

 

What I hope this shows, and what is probably my biggest gripe with this game, is that there aren't really any specialized roles. Everything is just...kinda the same. There is no identity between melee classes for example: they all have mobility (except duelist), they all have multiple forms of CC, they all have some defensive abilities. I personally like to see classes that fill roles, that you can then dedicate discipline slots to doubling down on your role or spending discipline slots to make your class more rounded. 

But that's just my .02, I hate seeing that almost every class has at least one or multiple abilities in each category in their BASE kit. What do you guys think? Just curious to hear your thoughts!

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Since Blair mentioned in a stream that some classes may lose (or gain) powers they currently (do or do not) have this isn't really anything anyone has to worry about.

Even if Blair hadn't mentioned it though, I still don't see this as a problem. Even if multiple classes have "a thing" in a column it could pale in comparison to every other class, making it practically a moot point. With mobility, for example, it doesn't matter that Templars get Censure because the way its designed still allows for them to be kited like a toddler on a playground.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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6 minutes ago, moneda said:

Since Blair mentioned in a stream that some classes may lose (or gain) powers they currently (do or do not) have this isn't really anything anyone has to worry about.

Even if Blair hadn't mentioned it though, I still don't see this as a problem. Even if multiple classes have "a thing" in a column it could pale in comparison to every other class, making it practically a moot point. With mobility, for example, it doesn't matter that Templars get Censure because the way its designed still allows for them to be kited like a toddler on a playground.

Past history has shown that abilities haven't really been added or removed. 

i don't think it makes it a moot point. I think it actually makes it more of a talking point...templar having access to a mobility skill and still being kited "like a toddler on a playground" brings up more discussion on other classes being over-tuned mobility wise. But ultimately it's not about this class mobility v this class' mobility. It's more an argument about nothing feels unique in my opinion because of the fact that classes have "a thing" or multiple things in every category (namely CC, which i think is aids in group fights). And then multiplying all of that by the large scale fights we are supposed to be having in the future. I just think there is too much personally.

 I see where ur coming from though, think its a difference in how we like classes designed. thanks for your thoughts Moneda

Edited by Jjohnsin

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Have to agree with you @Jjohnsin The more I try out different classes the more I'm starting to think there's no flavour to playing class x over class y

There's too much CC handed out to all the classes like candy.

The game is becoming more and more of a CC fest as it is progressing :( 


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I'm more directly concerned about how effective chain CCing is. CC effects last for what feels like an eternity in PvP.  I've never documented the time, however I'd take a guess and say CCs stick for at least 5 secs each. That's too long. Add in followup CCs and you get the feeling of being useless and completely out of control of your character. Without Juggernaut it feels like you get out of one CC just to fall into another until you're out of stam. I see that as more of an issue with the game's DR/anti-CC mechanics than what each class is capable of. Sprint is almost entirely useless as a result because using stam for anything besides retaliate is a death sentence.

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I'm not too fond of the class design in the game. It feels very much like the "throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks" method of design.

Been participating in the test from the beginning and honestly can't say that I've found a class that I've enjoyed. They all feel the same, and their ability kits in general are very bland. The amount of CC per class in the game is way over the top as well.

Edited by Helix

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17 hours ago, moneda said:

Since Blair mentioned in a stream that some classes may lose (or gain) powers they currently (do or do not) have this isn't really anything anyone has to worry about.

I seem to remember them saying that a lot of classes had abilities that were meant to end up on discs. Hope that is still true. I'd like to see each class get a very very simple base kit. Some basic abilities to be playable out of the box and maybe just 1 or 2 class defining abilities that make you want to play that class. Work the rest of the base kit abilities into Major and Weapon Discs.

Base class kit - LMB attack and 2 abilities, passives

Race - 1-2 abilities,

Major Discs - 1-3 abilities and or passives, work all the extra abilities that were stripped from class into new majors.

Weapon Disc - 1-3 abilities and or passives.

Take fessor for example. Start them with LMB, Absolution, and firewave. Break down the other abilities into new Major Discs. Something like,

Disc 1 -

gives stats, a new passive and the firewave/tornado spell.

Disc 2 - gives stats, a new passive and the stun and mana regen spell.

 

Now you have choices. Do you go for utility Disc, or CC disc, or DPS disc, or defensive disc, or support disc?

 

 

 


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38 minutes ago, Yoink said:

I seem to remember them saying that a lot of classes had abilities that were meant to end up on discs. Hope that is still true. I'd like to see each class get a very very simple base kit. Some basic abilities to be playable out of the box and maybe just 1 or 2 class defining abilities that make you want to play that class. Work the rest of the base kit abilities into Major and Weapon Discs.

I hope not, sounds terrible to be honest. Doubling down on disciplines is not the way to go, especially when we're not sure how hard and/or accessible they'll be due to thralls. The classes feel bland and homogenized now, so imagine when they strip out anything interesting and outsource it to disciplines. Disciplines should EXTEND your class / play style. If the base class is basic and boring, that could be a huge turn off to many. Remember that first impressions matter, and many wont wait 20+ hours to finally "start playing the game". If it's not fun and engaging from the beginning you risk losing them altogether.

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Crowfall should continue along with each class having options balance around that, adjust cooldowns etc but don't take away peoples ability to make big plays. 

 

This is the newer style of MMO's each class can do more things.   Older players like the being 100% tied to a group because individual classes can only do 1 or 2 things.

I dislike the old style its boring simplistic low skill cap, the newer style is faster you need to know more, practice more to understand all classes skills and possible builds.   There is greater room for skill gaps based on knowledge and counter play.   People can also fill more roles in a group with their favorite class.

Old DAoC, Shadowbane players I have run into in other MMOs have really had a hard time adjusting to the higher skill caps new MMOs bring.   I learned to avoid them, the roles were so simplistic for all but a few classes these old MMOs pvper grew an over inflated sense of personal skill.   I see them time to time forming groups beating up on pugs bragging about it, they get smashed by the younger bunch of elites I roll with.

Do not look back on all aspects of DAoC and Shadowbane with rose colored glasses the newer MMOs combat is much more enjoyable fast paced with room for growth.  

 

 

Edited by Xomox

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47 minutes ago, Helix said:

I hope not, sounds terrible to be honest. Doubling down on disciplines is not the way to go, especially when we're not sure how hard and/or accessible they'll be due to thralls. The classes feel bland and homogenized now, so imagine when they strip out anything interesting and outsource it to disciplines. Disciplines should EXTEND your class / play style. If the base class is basic and boring, that could be a huge turn off to many. Remember that first impressions matter, and many wont wait 20+ hours to finally "start playing the game". If it's not fun and engaging from the beginning you risk losing them altogether.

That is a good point and I am just assuming that major disc will be mostly available. I guess until we know what live will be like it is hard to say.


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20 minutes ago, Xomox said:

Crowfall should continue along with each class having options balance around that, adjust cooldowns etc but don't take away peoples ability to make big plays. 

 

 

I agree with this, I would like for there to be many many options. So many that I have to make tough choices of what skills/abilities to keep or discard. I'm also fine with keeping the base kits as they are but then I would like to see a lot more really interesting disc that give us tough decisions.


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35 minutes ago, Xomox said:

Crowfall should continue along with each class having options balance around that, adjust cooldowns etc but don't take away peoples ability to make big plays. 

 

This is the newer style of MMO's each class can do more things.   Older players like the being 100% tied to a group because individual classes can only do 1 or 2 things.

I dislike the old style its boring simplistic low skill cap, the newer style is faster you need to know more, practice more to understand all classes skills and possible builds.   There is greater room for skill gaps based on knowledge and counter play.   People can also fill more roles in a group with their favorite class.

Old DAoC, Shadowbane players I have run into in other MMOs have really had a hard time adjusting to the higher skill caps new MMOs bring.   I learned to avoid them, the roles were so simplistic for all but a few classes these old MMOs pvper grew an over inflated sense of personal skill.   I see them time to time forming groups beating up on pugs bragging about it, they get smashed by the younger bunch of elites I roll with.

Do not look back on all aspects of DAoC and Shadowbane with rose colored glasses the newer MMOs combat is much more enjoyable fast paced with room for growth.  

 

 

It's not the case of classes doing more things it's currently more of a case of every class doing everything.

It really is getting to the point lately where classes literally have very little distinction in terms of 'flavour'. The amount of CC in this game as an example is starting to get out of control and its getting to the point where the most important skill in game is retaliate. There needs to be things that only certain classes can do because otherwise the game is going to end up with only high damage classes being rolled because these high damage classes also have CC, mobility, good healing.

There's such a thing as too much choice being a bad thing and I think its certainly starting to become the case here


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15 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

comparing a dual tray+ class to a single tray class in terms of options is laughable IMHO

It's really not. It's just a breakdown of what classes have access to, and regardless of how many trays a class has that doesnt mean they should have access to that many more abilities in each category. # of trays should have no effect on the # of CC, etc, etc they have access too.

That being said, I think everyone knows dual tray classes will have more options in their kit, however, I dont think just because a class has more trays they should have access to a larger pool of abilities. Probably the biggest offender being ranger. 

 

Edit: take duelist for example. Dual tray class that is balanced against single tray classes, their second tray only has 4 abilities, only one of which is CC. Now look at ranger, dual tray class that has almost a full bar of abilities in each tray with multiple abilties with extra effects in each tray. Id argue that it actually makes MORE sense from a balance perspective to compare dual tray to single tray classes.

Edited by Jjohnsin

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