Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Scorn

Block Breakdown Discussion

Recommended Posts

@blazzen @soulein 

(If there's other voices that would be good to weigh in on this please tag. I'd like to get some minds together)
I would like to eventually move this to a Suggestion post but would like some extra thoughts and feedback



Block: (and Parry)
Here I want to address the weirdness with Basic Block, how weak Cleric Block is, Knight Block's Damage Bonus and Templar Parry being strong, weak, bugged.
Except I'm going to do so in the opposite order apparently.
There's also the issue of Shield Passives being part of the graveyard of unused and discarded passives/disciplines.
Currently Block comes in 2 different varieties. Basic Block and Class Block (Knight/Templar/Cleric) 
Basic Block provides 50% increase to Armor values while active and uses Resource at a fairly low consumption rate.
Class Blocks decrease Personal Damage Modifier by 50% while active and use Resource...except Cleric Block which uses Stamina...
Anyways, let's start with Templar

Templar Parry
This is still in a bugged state where sometimes a player will get "stuck" in Parry mode resulting in having the effects while not using the ability.
This is both good and bad for the player involved and needs to get fixed.
CC immunity is great, damage reduction is nice but the movement speed reduction is awful for a Melee and shuts down staying on a target or getting off combos.
If I want to be Parrying, I'm holding down the proper button...otherwise I don't want to be Parrying!
Counter Attack can be done during this time as well, but with no mobility it's not all it's been touted as being. It also completely shuts down the ability to Retaliate or do combos.

Now the damage that can come from Righteous Parry is indeed righteous ( 8-} )but having no Cooldown on it can make it a little silly sometimes.
I have footage of getting 10 parries off in 15seconds. Just straight up E mash. 
Personally I would love to see Pip generation off Ranged Attacks brought back to Parry and a short 3 second Cooldown attached to Righteous Parry.

Knight Block
Knight Block feels pretty good, especially once good training and PCM comes into play.
The Elemental reflect can be key in a battle and having a Knight or 2 can really change the way a Caster plays...or punish them brutally for it.
My main issue with the Block on Knight is the damage bonus associated with it and just how useless it can be.
The duration on it is so short as to barely matter. It can stack by itself to 70% damage bonus...problem is that Damage Bonus caps out at 40%
I think adjusting the duration to 5 seconds per stack and a 5% bonus could work wonders.

Cleric Block
This skill SUCKS. Sorry but it's true, there's no wonder most Clerics use Basic Block or Dodge instead.
The Healing is TERRIBLE...90 Heal per 'big hit' with 1250 SP...yeah no.
Another big issue here seems to be the resource consumption. It burns through Stamina, which is needed for Sprinting and the new Retaliate system.
This really should be changed back to Mana . It didn't really make sense to have it on Stamina at all to begin with, and especially not now after the Retaliate system overhaul.
It's got a nice visual too! Which only makes it more the pity that it is overlooked due to not being that good/useful right now.

My suggestion is change the cost back to Mana and make Healing much stronger (it'd be SUPER cool if it could somehow scale off the damage taken...like a reverse Devotion)

Basic Block: 
The resource cost on this seems to be a bit lower than class blocks but it does not come with additional effects.
My main concern is Basic Block does not act the same way as other Blocks do. 
It stops CC yes, and mitigates damage...but in a way very different than all the other Blocks.
Credit for this find goes to @Mytherceria afaik who I actually argued with for a bit because we were looking at different blocks lol
Class Blocks give -50% Personal Damage Modifier whereas basic Block gives 50% Armor bonus
Also Armor Bonus in the character sheet displays a cap of 75% but this is showing the actual cap as 50%...
blks.png

This creates a very odd spot for Basic Block where it loses power the higher gear/training a character has. 
@thomasblair Is this intentional or some odd fluke?

This also leads into an issue of Block providing Stats that can be gained in different ways besides Blocking.
What happens when you have Rangers, Myrmidons and Confessors running around with Mitigation levels = to a Blocking Knight/Templar?

Disciplines
While there are some issues with the actual skills supplied by the various Disciplines related to Shields I am here to talk about Block and various effects related to it.
So those are all ignored for now.
Master of Shields has a Passive 'Numbness' which modifies Blocking Big Hit Cost Multiplier by 5
Shield Fighter has a Passive 'Molon Labe' which modifies Blocking Big Hit Cost Multiplier by 8 and gives a related mini Knight Damage Bonus Stack
Secutor modifies Blocking Big Hit Cost Multiplier by -.5 When it was first implemented I believe this adjusted Blocking Cost Multiplier, seemingly 1/2ing the Block cost!
Later it was changed to Blocking Big Hit Cost Multiplier
When these were first implemented all off these values used to be negative.  2 are now positive and 1 is negative (and a much lesser value)
The cap for this stat is 13, these 3 are the only things that affect it as far as I know
I assume that is 13%? And is this increasing or decreasing costs of Blocking...if it's working at all...testing on pigs was inconclusive.
But what's up with Secutor? Looking forward to Tower Shields by the way but it's odd it doesn't give Medium Shield proficiency.


Secutor.png

Edited by Scorn

ScornofLife2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few thoughts:

Knight block will also get "stuck" from time to time, though you won't be able to do any other abilities while this is the case.

Regarding the damage bonus, I'd rather see it cap out at 40% and last a while longer. I'd LIKE to use it during fights, and I often do when timing permits. I have no trouble stacking the damage bonus in a large fight with lots of ambient damage, but I can barely get an attack off before it fades away entirely. Yes, we could take Shield Fighter to improve it, but that's very nearly the ONLY reason to take that rune. Every other ability on Shield Fighter goes into the "discipline grave yard" Scorn mentioned... the Shield Slam series of abilities is particularly lackluster. Shield Throw isn't much of a winner either. 

Perhaps if the Knight Damage Bonus applied to the Knight's group, it'd be more effective as a mechanic? Maybe the damage bonus timer could be increased and Molon Labe could grant the group Damage Bonus? Maybe Secutor could do something similar? (still not sure what you're planning to do with that rune)

Basic Block should be changed to -50% personal damage modifier instead of +50% armor bonus.

The Cleric "heal block" should probably have the amount of healing increased OR heal for the regular amount EVERY time the Cleric is hit while blocking. Sort of like how the Knight reflects back damage every time it takes a tick of elemental damage. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

don't forget about that sweet druid block on either tray [combined with a teleport on the other tray!]

wtb secutor form up [described as a group shroud of darkness style reactive knockdown proc buff that you trigger by casting short range with an ally]

not sure if the passive is a self only effect or an aura though these days. aura would be sweet.

i am also curious about tower shields and have raised general voice on lack of options regarding shields as armor [e.g. difference between small and medium is one plank of stats] blair did say some new shield stats floating around, not really seen.

p.s. basic block also prevents stamina regen during it [even if you use essence]

p.p.s 5.5 knight will use stamina for block instead of energy with rest of powers

i think there are some value issues of stam block vs new stam retaliate myself

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now that assassin position tech is "in" would be interesting if they revisited the idea of a block that prevents damage prevention / or a barrier to allies standing behind you or something of that sort


caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cleric block would be more interesting if it worked like a defensive parry counterattack that you actively use with a CD on proc etc [with it being a close range/targeted effect...too much face roll easy 'aimed' heals on cleric as is...]

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tinnis said:

cleric block would be more interest if it worked like a defensive parry counterattack that you actively use with a CD on proc etc [with it being a close range/targeted effect...too much face roll easy 'aimed' heals on cleric as is...]

Oooh, a Righteous Parry that Heals! That could be neat for sure. 

Only way a Druid can get Block is Basic Block so it's effectively covered. Scimitar and Secutor do not give the ability to Block on their own.

I only foresee making Block and Power usage use different Resources resulting in disaster. So...is Oath of Will going to still give Stamina or Energy now? Ugh haha


ScornofLife2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just popping in to say one argument ive thought of (just playing devils advocate) for blocks to use stamina instead of resource. That is: blocks are supposed to prevent CC, meaning you shouldnt need to use your stamina to retaliate, but ideally use it to block all CC.

However we all know how much random CC is thrown around especially in big fights, and how unrealistic it is to block every CC coming your way. I mainly disagree with block using stam but that was just an argument i thought of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Scorn said:

Oooh, a Righteous Parry that Heals! That could be neat for sure. 

Only way a Druid can get Block is Basic Block so it's effectively covered. Scimitar and Secutor do not give the ability to Block on their own.

I only foresee making Block and Power usage use different Resources resulting in disaster. So...is Oath of Will going to still give Stamina or Energy now? Ugh haha

which also bugs me. they grant shields on scimitar and never do anything with it - or the weapon itself. ¬_¬

i made a previous suggestion of a similar reactive "parry block" with an electric discharge / redirect attack for scimitar - would be sweet!!! instead we get call storm and a forgetable grounding! and then the rest of the limiting issues with that stone [compare to faceroll LMB cleric haha!]

*cough* "avatar!"

tumblr_nxtdcgQmV81urgg6bo1_250.gif

tumblr_nui35pGHIq1ra5a63o1_500.gif

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tinnis said:

which also bugs me. they grant shields on scimitar and never do anything with it - or the weapon itself. ¬_¬

i made a previous suggestion of a similar reactive "parry block" with an electric discharge / redirect attack for scimitar - would be sweet!!! instead we get call storm and a forgetable grounding! and then the rest of the limiting issues with that stone [compare to faceroll LMB cleric haha!]

Yeah, I'd love to see more done with that kind of variety. Have Scimitar have a semi-Knight block reflect that pulses damage around you when you get hit with physical say.


ScornofLife2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

shall we mention the fact that expose is now widely accessible as well and removes the CC immunity while blocking [and people can counterattack punish while blocking far easier than parry due to timings/animations]

e.g. the parry up/counterattack can be nigh instant and unseen...


caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tinnis said:

shall we mention the fact that expose is now widely accessible as well and removes the CC immunity while blocking [and people can counterattack punish while blocking far easier than parry due to timings/animations]

e.g. the parry up/counterattack can be nigh instant and unseen...

I tries to get expose needed by not working on LMB or RMB. I was shot down because "you can just not use abilities" to counter it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with much of what has been said, but here's my 2c worth anyway:

The duration of the dmg bonus from knight block is too short.  A knight taking shieldfighter gets a 7s uptime instead and that feels much better.  The rest of the shieldfighter discipline is crap, sadly.

Templar parry was far too strong when it gave pips from ranged attacks being blocked.  I feel that its present incarnation is still too strong in a melee situation.  Templar in a melee group fight is a ridiculous wrecking machine with the parry knockdown not having a cooldown.  I think the knockdown portion needs a 5-7s  internal cooldown.  At 7s, I would entertain the notion of the templar gaining pips from blocking ranged attacks again, but that may tilt them back into OPness.  Right now Templar dominates melee and is vulnerable to ranged.  Giving them pips for devotion from ranged attacks feels like it's too strong, and if they're able to take the 750SP minor and a healing disc they'll be nigh unkillable again.

Special case - templar is also vulnerable to duelist expose punish, but duelists are useless in mass combat because they're too squishy. 1v1 a duelist > a templar, but 1v1 is nearly meaningless in Crowfall.

There is too much armor penetration right now.  ArPen caps at 40% and feels readily available, meaning a fully trained knight in the best gear available can have as little as 35% mitigation, since you cap armor mitigations at 75% naturally.  If you allowed ArPen to subtract from mitgation that went over 75% (and then still capped the final mitigation at 75%) that'd feel much better.

Finally, I'm not clear on how blocking inter-reacts with mitigation.  If I have 75% mitigation vs slashing and I block a slashing attack, do I take 25% dmg or 12.5% dmg?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

I agree with much of what has been said, but here's my 2c worth anyway:

The duration of the dmg bonus from knight block is too short.  A knight taking shieldfighter gets a 7s uptime instead and that feels much better.  The rest of the shieldfighter discipline is crap, sadly.

Templar parry was far too strong when it gave pips from ranged attacks being blocked.  I feel that its present incarnation is still too strong in a melee situation.  Templar in a melee group fight is a ridiculous wrecking machine with the parry knockdown not having a cooldown.  I think the knockdown portion needs a 5-7s  internal cooldown.  At 7s, I would entertain the notion of the templar gaining pips from blocking ranged attacks again, but that may tilt them back into OPness.  Right now Templar dominates melee and is vulnerable to ranged.  Giving them pips for devotion from ranged attacks feels like it's too strong, and if they're able to take the 750SP minor and a healing disc they'll be nigh unkillable again.

Special case - templar is also vulnerable to duelist expose punish, but duelists are useless in mass combat because they're too squishy. 1v1 a duelist > a templar, but 1v1 is nearly meaningless in Crowfall.

There is too much armor penetration right now.  ArPen caps at 40% and feels readily available, meaning a fully trained knight in the best gear available can have as little as 35% mitigation, since you cap armor mitigations at 75% naturally.  If you allowed ArPen to subtract from mitigation that went over 75% (and then still capped the final mitigation at 75%) that'd feel much better.

Finally, I'm not clear on how blocking inter-reacts with mitigation.  If I have 75% mitigation vs slashing and I block a slashing attack, do I take 25% dmg or 12.5% dmg?

 

If they made Templar Counter attack only happen every 5-7s it'd need some kind of additional nudge IMO.
I can see 5s max though my worry is that you'd see less Parry holds and more Tap-Counter inserted as part of standard damage routines with a CD like that.
It was developed and balanced around not having a cooldown of any kind, to avoid the damage avoid the Templar and/or do not trigger it.
I've had fights where I have jumped in on a Templar, seen them get Righteous Parry and I've still been able to get out of Range before it connects.
I've had enemies do the same to me when I am on a Templar.
Avoiding it is more difficult in group fights to be sure if there are other people who may be triggering the counter.

Healing from Devotion and Divine Light do not seem to scale with Support Power from my testing with a 500SP Sword.

Expose is very useful but there are ways to Cleanse it which I think is good. More interaction like that would be great I think. Move-Countermove-CounterCounter

I would love to see a lesser version of Suppress that shuts down RMB moves and apply it to that Dodge Pip Remover attempt at a Shield Bash. Call the Debuff 'Vulnerable' or something. 

Did not know ArPen capped at 40%, nothing on the sheet indicates such so good to know. Still a bit too high with how it interacts with Armor IMO.

And it's 12.5% damage if they have no Pen, you've 75% mitigation and you get the Full -.5 Personal Damage Modifier though I'm unsure which applies first and if it matters.

Edited by Scorn

ScornofLife2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Scorn said:

Healing from Devotion and Divine Light do not seem to scale with Support Power from my testing with a 500SP Sword.

Which I why I specified an additional healing discipline in my comment.  The templar class heals don't scale with SP, but they do with weapon dmg, and they're pretty strong.  Add a single healing discipline, and allow the templar to generate pips from blocking ranged attacks, and he can sit and heal himself while under fire unless hit with overwhelming numbers.  I think it'd be too strong.

1 hour ago, Scorn said:

Did not know ArPen capped at 40%, nothing on the sheet indicates such so good to know. Still a bit too high with how it interacts with Armor IMO.

I actually thought it capped at 100% penetration (ie, no cap), but a guildmate is sure it's 40% so I'm going with that for now, because it's the lesser argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scorn said:

Did not know ArPen capped at 40%, nothing on the sheet indicates such so good to know. Still a bit too high with how it interacts with Armor IMO.

 

11 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

I actually thought it capped at 100% penetration (ie, no cap), but a guildmate is sure it's 40% so I'm going with that for now, because it's the lesser argument.

armourpen.jpg

Being able to get to 100% is probably impossible... but i would like to see how high it can get on Physical dmg with Reveal Weakness from Shiled breaker and phys pen stats on gear.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Scorn said:

Personally I would love to see Pip generation off Ranged Attacks brought back to Parry and a short 3 second Cooldown attached to Righteous Parry.

This needs to happen. It was suggested a while ago. It would help Templar against ranged and tone the counterattack spam down a bit.

I think DoTs shouldn’t trigger counterattack though. Last I checked they do.


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, blazzen said:

This needs to happen. It was suggested a while ago. It would help Templar against ranged and tone the counterattack spam down a bit.

I think DoTs shouldn’t trigger counterattack though. Last I checked they do.

what determines whether something is tagged as "melee" or "ranged" for the purposes of templar counter attack procs? is it as simple as say what type of tray the power is slotted in e.g. would a troub 20m snare on a "melee" tray count - or does each power have a 'melee' or 'range' tag?


caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

what determines whether something is tagged as "melee" or "ranged" for the purposes of templar counter attack procs? is it as simple as say what type of tray the power is slotted in e.g. would a troub 20m snare on a "melee" tray count - or does each power have a 'melee' or 'range' tag?

From what I can tell there's a tag involved. 

Banshee's Ghost Armor and FireWall are both considered 'Melee' for example


ScornofLife2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

what determines whether something is tagged as "melee" or "ranged" for the purposes of templar counter attack procs? is it as simple as say what type of tray the power is slotted in e.g. would a troub 20m snare on a "melee" tray count - or does each power have a 'melee' or 'range' tag?

It’s not very consistent. Fire box will trigger it for example as will divine light. Dots and field aoes trigger it but LMB from a bow does not unless the bow bleeds and then the bleed will. It’s all over the place right now. Just another combat thing to polish on ACE to do list.

I was disappointed to see how little healing cleric block does.

Knight block dmg bonus probably needs to be lower but last longer.


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...