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ACE_JackalBark

An Introduction to Vendors - Official Discussion Thread

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14 hours ago, Badwolfe said:

Ditto. Another time sink before you can obtain a stall / merchant will not be fun

They will be a crafted item thus can be traded/sold to you by other players that have the skill to craft them.

3 hours ago, Pace said:

I feel like getting these into the campaign will be essential.  The campaign worlds should feel like its own slice of a sandbox game world and not just an arena.  I also think having to visit many EK's will become tedious and unwanted by certain groups of players.  The concept is awesome though and looks good- keep it up.

Yes they will be available in CWs too. Their use will vary between the types of rules in play. But we still don't know what happens to the vendors when a stronghold is captured by an enemy. Will they get put in a bank like some of your other items that you can retrieve later from a beach head? Or are they lost as spoils of war?

1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

can we have stalls/vendors that are NOT attached to buildings [or at least a cheap made building...?] what is the barrier to entry going to be there in terms of parcel and building either via store or from premuim resources [and stonemasonry training]

will buildings also have gold upkeep costs?

vendors sound expensive upkeep wise from hinted figure - 10 gold every "30" - i assume minutes?

which would turn into:

480 gold a day

3,360 gold a week

14,616 gold a month

175,392 gold a year

does upkeep only tick when the EK is online? Can we set "open and closed hours" either for vendors or our EK as a whole [assuming in future that they will be online more or non owners can spin them up]

 

In UO/SWG vendors had a regular income tick regardless if you are on or not. When you gave them gold/credits it would tell you how long they would be employed. They were balanced to be a resource drain because it cost money to make money but was never so extreme that you ran a business in the red. 

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

can we have stalls/vendors that are NOT attached to buildings [or at least a cheap made building...?] what is the barrier to entry going to be there in terms of parcel and building either via store or from premuim resources [and stonemasonry training]

will buildings also have gold upkeep costs?

vendors sound expensive upkeep wise from hinted figure - 10 gold every "30" - i assume minutes?

which would turn into:

480 gold a day

3,360 gold a week

14,616 gold a month

175,392 gold a year

does upkeep only tick when the EK is online? Can we set "open and closed hours" either for vendors or our EK as a whole [assuming in future that they will be online more or non owners can spin them up]

 

I am curious about this too, 10 gold every half hour seems like alot and it may not be worth it.  Especially if you are in a guild that have a small market, few people would access it.

 

Could we not have a percentage tax that goes to the vendor? 

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would still also love some clarity on gold sources - is it going to continue dropping out of boar-butts?

would much prefer if we minted our own coins from dust or something myself. [makes more sense and is a more universal drop and has other uses]

previous discussions in the thread about path of exile as an example nail it - all 'currency' in that game is directly useful and consumable for crafting. a nice multiple level barter system.

Edited by Tinnis

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47 minutes ago, Devonic said:

Could we not have a percentage tax that goes to the vendor? 

The way UO handled this was the "salery" of the vendor was a base rate plus a percentage of the total cost of goods for sale. For example the base rate could be 1000 gold a week and the total cost of all the items you are selling is 10,000 gold. You pay 1% of the total sale price per day which is which would be 100 gold per day. 

 

These figures aren't accurate but for this example it will work. Two reason they do this. 1) to hqv a constant gold sink in the game 2) so people don't turn vendors into personal bank/extra storage. 

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8 minutes ago, Keaggan said:

The way UO handled this was the "salery" of the vendor was a base rate plus a percentage of the total cost of goods for sale. For example the base rate could be 1000 gold a week and the total cost of all the items you are selling is 10,000 gold. You pay 1% of the total sale price per day which is which would be 100 gold per day. 

 

These figures aren't accurate but for this example it will work. Two reason they do this. 1) to hqv a constant gold sink in the game 2) so people don't turn vendors into personal bank/extra storage. 

on that note - i wonder if we will be able to craft either one or a larger amount of "local bank" chests for our eternal kingdoms at some point

Edited by Tinnis

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32 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

would still also love some clarity on gold sources - is it going to continue dropping out of boar-butts?

would much prefer if we minted our own coins from dust or something myself. [makes more sense and is a more universal drop and has other uses]

This. I'm not opposed to gold being derived from mobile "drops". However, the dust/gold conversion idea would ideal. Even if it was introduced and gated as a "low level" alchemy skill.

Some are put off by the idea of gold as a currency. I think it would eventually be a giant tedious pain in the ass without it. This is the earliest iteration for vendors, we have to remember that. Eventually, if they are smart (and I believe they are), players will be able to set up "buy orders". Lets take a simple example in EK/Marketplace economy.

You have items that have dropped, captured disc thralls, looted resources, whatever. You need high quality leather. What are you going to do? Stand around spamming "WTT"? Hop from endless EKs to find a vendor that hopefully wants to trade what you have for what you want? No. There needs to be a currency. Sell what you don't want/need for gold to in turn buy what you want/need.

The biggest issue with this will be inflation of course, but that's something for the pros to figure out through durability/maintenence/gold sink.

Just my 0.02 of course.


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1 minute ago, Armegeddon said:

This. I'm not opposed to gold being derived from mobile "drops". However, the dust/gold conversion idea would ideal. Even if it was introduced and gated as a "low level" alchemy skill.

Some are put off by the idea of gold as a currency. I think it would eventually be a giant tedious pain in the ass without it. This is the earliest iteration for vendors, we have to remember that. Eventually, if they are smart (and I believe they are), players will be able to set up "buy orders". Lets take a simple example in EK/Marketplace economy.

You have items that have dropped, captured disc thralls, looted resources, whatever. You need high quality leather. What are you going to do? Stand around spamming "WTT"? Hop from endless EKs to find a vendor that hopefully wants to trade what you have for what you want? No. There needs to be a currency. Sell what you don't want/need for gold to in turn buy what you want/need.

The biggest issue with this will be inflation of course, but that's something for the pros to figure out through durability/maintenence/gold sink.

Just my 0.02 of course.

i am also curious how people will "browse" EKs - or if there will be a global "TRADE" channel as opposed to current 'global' etc etc etc

Edited by Tinnis

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Does anyone know if, once we install our shop and vendors (since they will be needing to deduct currency in the background) that our EKs would remain online so they can function?  I know that they said they didn't anticipate every EK needing to remain online so they currently have them shut down when no one is on it to save server space and cost, and not every Ek would need to be online since a lot of other people just use their friends EK's.   Just wondering how they will handle this.  Idk. 

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My big questions here are

Can our EKs remain online while no one is in them?

Is phase 1 of EK permissions part of this release?

Without those two pieces vendors are essentially non-starters as economic tools for the first iteration. A fun curiosity, but if I have to be online and camping out in my EK to sell stuff, why would I use a vendor with an upkeep cost? If a single player needs to drop all of the buildings, and has full admin control of them, isn't the requirement to have the owner and only the owner of the EK administrating the building, vendor, and all vendor contents an active impediment to the "EK Walmarts" this system is intended to create?


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43 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

i am also curious how people will "browse" EKs - or if there will be a global "TRADE" channel as opposed to current 'global' etc etc etc

I imagine they could set up a sub forum (kind of like guild recruitingis now but with more sub categories). Eventually, people will learn where to go for the best vendors. Word of mouth and reputation. But a trade channel would be ideal as well.


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2 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

Was thinking that myself Pope - unless anyone can 'start-up' a public EK then the merchants are pretty much useless

 

1 minute ago, Armegeddon said:

I imagine they could set up a sub forum (kind of like guild recruitingis now but with more sub categories). Eventually, people will learn where to go for the best vendors. Word of mouth and reputation. But a trade channel would be ideal as well.

 

38 minutes ago, Mezcon said:

Does anyone know if, once we install our shop and vendors (since they will be needing to deduct currency in the background) that our EKs would remain online so they can function?  I know that they said they didn't anticipate every EK needing to remain online so they currently have them shut down when no one is on it to save server space and cost, and not every Ek would need to be online since a lot of other people just use their friends EK's.   Just wondering how they will handle this.  Idk. 

*Shamless Plug Alert*

 

To keep server costs down I imagine that EKs will only be online when players are using them. That's why central EKs like the FLA will be set up. To facilitate easy trade with a constant 24/7 EK up time and steady traffic. Meaning no global chat but just an EK specific one. No need to have 10000 EKs with a single vndor in them when people can congregate in a few large centers. 

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1 minute ago, Keaggan said:

 

 

*Shamless Plug Alert*

 

To keep server costs down I imagine that EKs will only be online when players are using them. That's why central EKs like the FLA will be set up. To facilitate easy trade with a constant 24/7 EK up time and steady traffic. Meaning no global chat but just an EK specific one. No need to have 10000 EKs with a single vndor in them when people can congregate in a few large centers. 

That's not in question. What's in question is what happens when FLA has zero players in it and goes offline. You'd have to camp someone out there 24/7 for it to be guaranteed to be online 24/7 under the current system. Ideally the way this SHOULD work is anyone with access to an EK (which means everyone in the case of public EKs) automatically spins up the server when entering if it is offline.

 Furthermore, how is FLA going to convince people to put vendors there if only the owner of the EK can place and populate the vendors? "Trust me"? We need parcel permissions at least for something like FLA to even begin.

This isn't a question about the long term purpose of these systems, we know where they're headed EVENTUALLY. This is a comment on how vendors are unusable in a practical sense for the current testing environment without those two pieces being implemented. That's fine if they just want to test if they work, but if they expect to start figuring out the economy and use that data to tweak upkeep costs and such, implementing them without that supporting tech isn't going to do it.


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8 minutes ago, Keaggan said:

 

 

*Shamless Plug Alert*

 

To keep server costs down I imagine that EKs will only be online when players are using them. That's why central EKs like the FLA will be set up. To facilitate easy trade with a constant 24/7 EK up time and steady traffic. Meaning no global chat but just an EK specific one. No need to have 10000 EKs with a single vndor in them when people can congregate in a few large centers. 

If they just allow anyone to start up a public EK then the problem is solved for now. As soon as everyone leaves the EK shuts down. I hope they don't go down the 'few large trade EKs route' as this puts too much power in too few hands. I like the idea of having to seek out bargains in various EK's (like the old UO days of finding that out of the way player merchant) rather than visiting some 'super mall'

Give me the smaller run player markets over the mega mall option any day :) 

 

Edited by Badwolfe

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1 hour ago, Keaggan said:

The way UO handled this was the "salery" of the vendor was a base rate plus a percentage of the total cost of goods for sale. For example the base rate could be 1000 gold a week and the total cost of all the items you are selling is 10,000 gold. You pay 1% of the total sale price per day which is which would be 100 gold per day. 

 

These figures aren't accurate but for this example it will work. Two reason they do this. 1) to hqv a constant gold sink in the game 2) so people don't turn vendors into personal bank/extra storage. 

I honestly don't see the problem with people using vendors as personal storage at all.

In a CW, those vendors should be vulnerable to being captured/destroyed by enemies, just like everything else. Just exclude the contents from the protection of being pulled to the world bank and people are assuming a risk by having items in them.

For EK's, your basically king of your own realm.  There should be no real storage issues in EK's by design, since your outside of the the material ownership/power paradigm that exists in campaign worlds. The gate is import/export volume, as well as them planning on building taxes and decay of buildings, so no need for yet another cost for stocking a store.  Every item is just a miniscule row of data in a table somewhere, and properly designed has a nearly invisible impact on performance or storage space. 

Cost to keep open makes sense, cost to store does not.  What happens to all the stuff in "your" store when you run out of gold?  I think the store should just close, but the stock remain as is.

 

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7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I honestly don't see the problem with people using vendors as personal storage at all.

In a CW, those vendors should be vulnerable to being captured/destroyed by enemies, just like everything else. Just exclude the contents from the protection of being pulled to the world bank and people are assuming a risk by having items in them.

For EK's, your basically king of your own realm.  There should be no real storage issues in EK's by design, since your outside of the the material ownership/power paradigm that exists in campaign worlds. The gate is import/export volume, as well as them planning on building taxes and decay of buildings, so no need for yet another cost for stocking a store.  Every item is just a miniscule row of data in a table somewhere, and properly designed has a nearly invisible impact on performance or storage space. 

Cost to keep open makes sense, cost to store does not.  What happens to all the stuff in "your" store when you run out of gold?  I think the store should just close, but the stock remain as is.

 

Thats exactly what they will be used for by a lot of people and I don't think there's anyway that ACE will be able to prevent it. The rental should remain either way as you are either providing a gold sink for selling or a gold sink for storing. Both should cost you the same amount. As to gold running out then they simply need to block access to whats stored on the vendor until the upkeep of the merchant is brought up to date

Edited by Badwolfe
my usual bad typing :)

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12 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

If they just allow anyone to start up a public EK then the problem is solved for now. As soon as everyone leaves the EK shuts down. I hope they don't go down the 'few large trade EKs route' as this puts too much power in too few hands. I like the idea of having to seek out bargains in various EK's (like the old UO days of finding that out of the way player merchant) rather than visiting some 'super mall'

Give me the smaller run player markets over the mega mall option any day :) 

 

They won't have to engineer any mechanics that accomodate that specifically, people will simply gravitate to the EK's that they know are likely to have what they are looking for.

It's a scientific and well studied mathematical and natural phenomenon called the Pareto Distribution or Pareto principle.  

Any attempt to change or alter that behavior is akin to trying to drill a hole into liquid.  Nature and people just do not work that way, no matter what system is in place.

We are going to get EK trade hubs, because people gravitate that way. 

Will there be outliers with odd out of the way shops?  Sure there will be, until enough people find that shop and raise it's popularity enough that it becomes known and commonly used, and no longer out of the way.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

They won't have to engineer any mechanics that accomodate that specifically, people will simply gravitate to the EK's that they know are likely to have what they are looking for.

It's a scientific and well studied mathematical and natural phenomenon called the Pareto Distribution or Pareto principle.  

Any attempt to change or alter that behavior is akin to trying to drill a hole into liquid.  Nature and people just do not work that way, no matter what system is in place.

We are going to get EK trade hubs, because people gravitate that way. 

Will there be outliers with odd out of the way shops?  Sure there will be, until enough people find that shop and raise it's popularity enough that it becomes known and commonly used, and no longer out of the way.

Yes Krakken its inevitable that hubs will spring up but I'd like to see the option of small scale trading operations being there was all I was saying


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Just now, Badwolfe said:

Yes Krakken its inevitable that hubs will spring up but I'd like to see the option of small scale trading operations being there was all I was saying

I have found with groups of online people, that after a certain numerical threshold of participants has been reached, the structure begins to wobble and eventually collapse. 

Large EK's will need to enforce rules, such as minimum inventory, regular shop maintenance, etc. This will lead to social friction, fractionalization, etc, especially since unlike other games, there will be no locational/travel controls of movements between EK's. 

At least that's how I envision them working.

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