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ACE_JackalBark

An Introduction to Vendors - Official Discussion Thread

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The most vibrant player driven economy I ever played was Eve online.  To a fair extent you can equate vendor stalls with planets that you could put your goods up for sale on.  The Eve economy though relied on the Market interface that allowed you to do comparison shopping.  Without that market interface, and to a fair extent even with it, what happens is one location always becomes the vendor hub, and it's a complete waste of rent money to put up a vendor any place else.  Players do not want to hop from place to place to place to place to place ... looking for what they need at a competitive price.  So they all gravitate to one spot and if you don't have a vendor there, good luck getting your goods looked at.

I realize that vendor stalls are the first necessary step, but what is the long term plan for economic interactions?

 

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would be interesting if you could set a "tag" or title on your stall [or EK] that reflected your % completion of a relevant crafting profession

e.g. 1% blacksmithing tree = "novice blacksmith"

e.g. 100% blacksmith tree = "master blacksmith" and anything in between

this was great in say DAOC where such information was tagged above your head

e.g.

ghmjSqE.png

on similar note:

Can we display our guild names/shields on vendors/stalls too?

Edited by Tinnis

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12 minutes ago, rivoth said:

The most vibrant player driven economy I ever played was Eve online.  To a fair extent you can equate vendor stalls with planets that you could put your goods up for sale on.  The Eve economy though relied on the Market interface that allowed you to do comparison shopping.  Without that market interface, and to a fair extent even with it, what happens is one location always becomes the vendor hub, and it's a complete waste of rent money to put up a vendor any place else.  Players do not want to hop from place to place to place to place to place ... looking for what they need at a competitive price.  So they all gravitate to one spot and if you don't have a vendor there, good luck getting your goods looked at.

I realize that vendor stalls are the first necessary step, but what is the long term plan for economic interactions?

 

or if you look to something like path of exile - people just make a "third party" unofficial auction house instead ;p

http://poe.trade/

Edited by Tinnis

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18 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

if you are still lurking:

are vendors and stalls gated behind skill training advanced crafting [e.g. runemaking and stonemasonry] or open to all?

can they be set up *without* a building [or a special parcel e.g. can you have say one on a temple parcel etc] and how difficult/expensive will their material requirements be

Right now they're skill tied to the same requirement as all other geomancy recipes: Stonemasonry Novice

The current stalls will need to be set up to an annex socket, but the possibility of stand-alone stalls is still an idea we're toying with.

19 minutes ago, Scree said:

@vkromas The upkeep we saw in the preview article seemed to be tuned to 30 minute intervals. Can you illuminate if this upkeep period can be adjusted to longer terms, or will vendors need to keep sufficient gold to pay this upkeep at all times.

In that same vein, if your vendor is in an EK that goes offline, does he still require upkeep for that offline time?

Right now, we can't keep EK's "open" and "online" unless we plant ourselves inside it and stay logged in. I'd assume this is not the long-term plan, but offline "upkeep" would be annoying while we wait.

I *think* the 30 minute timer was set for internal testing and may change to a longer time frame (don't quote me on this just yet, I'll get more solid info shortly). Also, if your EK goes offline you shouldn't be incurring upkeep fees. 

 

21 minutes ago, Tommey said:

Will it be possible to set other things as Gold ?
Rather a Trade as a sale for Gold.
As Example 50 Copper Ore vs 50 Silver Ore ?

Or Gear vs Materials

At the moment we don't support this and I don't believe we have any plans to do this in the future. Ideally, there's plans for some more tuning on the actual trade system which may help with this request. 

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3 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Right now they're skill tied to the same requirement as all other geomancy recipes: Stonemasonry Novice

will that also be the case for crafting stations in the future, or will they remain craftable by all?


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3 minutes ago, vkromas said:

I *think* the 30 minute timer was set for internal testing and may change to a longer time frame (don't quote me on this just yet, I'll get more solid info shortly). Also, if your EK goes offline you shouldn't be incurring upkeep fees.

So for the first iteration the vendors are a bit useless in a practical context unless you leave yourself online 24/7 camped out in an EK.

EKs go offline extremely quickly once empty and I can't exactly play in a campaign world and camp out in my EK to ensure it is open for customers at the same time. The use case for vendors here is nonexistant. They do the exact same thing as me sitting in my EK waiting for people to open trade with me unless I leave the client running.

For this first iteration it sounds like vendors only have utility for players with an alt account they can park in their EKs, which is going to make it vitually impossible to accurately judge how players use them in a practical context.

Further, if they don't actually charge upkeep when the EK is offline then their primary function will be storage, not sales as there is no practical long term cost, they can not be used as a storefront unless you're willing to camp out in your EK, and as such I welcome my new banks that may one day be useful vendors.


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2 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

will that also be the case for crafting stations in the future, or will they remain craftable by all?

There are currently no plans to alter the accessibility of crafting these stations. 

25 minutes ago, rivoth said:

The most vibrant player driven economy I ever played was Eve online.  To a fair extent you can equate vendor stalls with planets that you could put your goods up for sale on.  The Eve economy though relied on the Market interface that allowed you to do comparison shopping.  Without that market interface, and to a fair extent even with it, what happens is one location always becomes the vendor hub, and it's a complete waste of rent money to put up a vendor any place else.  Players do not want to hop from place to place to place to place to place ... looking for what they need at a competitive price.  So they all gravitate to one spot and if you don't have a vendor there, good luck getting your goods looked at.

I realize that vendor stalls are the first necessary step, but what is the long term plan for economic interactions?

 

I wish I had a more elaborate way of answering your question at the moment without getting myself in trouble but we're hoping that with this phase we'll get some more data on how to tweak and better support future economic growth. We spent a lot of time looking into how other games do their economy and Eve really is one of the better structures we've noted. Unfortunately, I don't have more information I can share at this time. 

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6 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

So for the first iteration the vendors are a bit useless in a practical context unless you leave yourself online 24/7 camped out in an EK.

EKs go offline extremely quickly once empty and I can't exactly play in a campaign world and camp out in my EK to ensure it is open for customers at the same time. The use case for vendors here is nonexistant. They do the exact same thing as me sitting in my EK waiting for people to open trade with me unless I leave the client running.

For this first iteration it sounds like vendors only have utility for players with an alt account they can park in their EKs, which is going to make it vitually impossible to accurately judge how players use them in a practical context.

Further, if they don't actually charge upkeep when the EK is offline then their primary function will be storage, not sales as there is no practical long term cost, they can not be used as a storefront unless you're willing to camp out in your EK, and as such I welcome my new banks that may one day be useful vendors.

This is definitely one of those concerns we share and don't want the functionality to be used as storage or considered useless. We're still working the kinks out with that, too. It's one of those situations where we have to "Wait and See" how the players use the functionality and adjust accordingly; we're all feeling the growing pains together!

 

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8 minutes ago, vkromas said:

This is definitely one of those concerns we share and don't want the functionality to be used as storage or considered useless. We're still working the kinks out with that, too. It's one of those situations where we have to "Wait and See" how the players use the functionality and adjust accordingly; we're all feeling the growing pains together!

 

I'll shortcut that and tell you how people are going to use them right now:

  • People with houses will place some in personal private EKs for personal storage, putting a bit of gold on the purse so they remain open as storage space. Since every player owns a private EK, a large number of players own backer or test housing, current storage is really tiny, and the following usage problems exist,this will be hands down the most popular use.
  • People who want to run public trade spaces will be required to have a client online to keep the EK open, as only the owner can put an EK online currently and it is virtually impossible that any EK will have at least one player in it 24/7 through the natural course of play.
  • Those without alt accounts are essentially prevented from using the system in its current iteration, as only the owner can currently place and administrate structures, making it impossible to pool resources or designate a "guild afk bot" to keep the EK online.
  • You will see a lot of idle server uptime with no activity in it.
  • You guys will need to implement phase one of EK admin chain permissions so assets don't have to be surrendered to the owner to sell them, and change the way the current EK onlining permissions work if you want players in large numbers to use the vendors as intended
  • You guys will need to make the upkeep function in real time if you want to dissuade people from using them as extremely low cost sotrage space.
Edited by PopeUrban

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

I'll shortcut that and tell you how people are going to use them right now:

  • People with houses will place some in personal private EKs for personal storage, putting a bit of gold on the purse so they remain open as storage space. Since every player owns a private EK, a large number of players own backer or test housing, current storage is really tiny, and the following usage problems exist,this will be hands down the most popular use.
  • People who want to run public trade spaces will be required to have a client online to keep the EK open, as only the owner can put an EK online currently and it is virtually impossible that any EK will have at least one player in it 24/7 through the natural course of play.
  • Those without alt accounts are essentially prevented from using the system in its current iteration, as only the owner can currently place and administrate structures, making it impossible to pool resources or designate a "guild afk bot" to keep the EK online.
  • You will see a lot of idle server uptime with no activity in it.

 

Yeah, I definitely can see this happening; in fact you're probably dead on that this is how it's going to be with our first introduction of vendors; womp womp. We totally understand that some things just aren't in place yet to fully support what we're trying to achieve and that's something we're working towards - an actual game loop, EK sharing, and a better way to find exactly what you're looking for in the marketplace. We're hoping once we can setup EKs to be more functional then a personal storage and play area and a more communal area that this will alleviate some of these issues. 

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1 minute ago, Mezcon said:

Ah ok.  I always imagined ACE would let us craft personal storage chests.  Like what they have currently in the campaigns. 

It's a wish list subject we definitely have on the boards; when this functionality will come out though I don't have a definite answer. 

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2 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Yeah, I definitely can see this happening; in fact you're probably dead on that this is how it's going to be with our first introduction of vendors; womp womp. We totally understand that some things just aren't in place yet to fully support what we're trying to achieve and that's something we're working towards - an actual game loop, EK sharing, and a better way to find exactly what you're looking for in the marketplace. We're hoping once we can setup EKs to be more functional then a personal storage and play area and a more communal area that this will alleviate some of these issues. 

Yeah, and I'm excited that the basic tech for these is coming online despite the growing pains. My only point here is that required supporting systems don't exist right now to use any player usage data as balancing metrics because the lack of those systems is going to modify that player behavior in a pretty extreme way.

Still though, I'm happy it is beginning!

Edited by PopeUrban

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2 minutes ago, vkromas said:

It's a wish list subject we definitely have on the boards; when this functionality will come out though I don't have a definite answer. 

Oh, no you guys are fine.  You don't have a big enough team to fulfill everything that is needed in so short a time.  You guys are doing an amazing job with the size of team that you have.  I just feel without the ability to keep EKs open, you guys won't get proper feedback on how the vendors are performing.  And it kind of discourages me now of trying to set up a shop now that I know for the time being I am going to have to sit staring blankly at the spawn point for people to shop anyway.  So it does sound like a waste of resources and money. 

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13 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

I'll shortcut that and tell you how people are going to use them right now:

  • People with houses will place some in personal private EKs for personal storage, putting a bit of gold on the purse so they remain open as storage space. Since every player owns a private EK, a large number of players own backer or test housing, current storage is really tiny, and the following usage problems exist,this will be hands down the most popular use.
  • People who want to run public trade spaces will be required to have a client online to keep the EK open, as only the owner can put an EK online currently and it is virtually impossible that any EK will have at least one player in it 24/7 through the natural course of play.
  • Those without alt accounts are essentially prevented from using the system in its current iteration, as only the owner can currently place and administrate structures, making it impossible to pool resources or designate a "guild afk bot" to keep the EK online.
  • You will see a lot of idle server uptime with no activity in it.
  • You guys will need to implement phase one of EK admin chain permissions so assets don't have to be surrendered to the owner to sell them, and change the way the current EK onlining permissions work if you want players in large numbers to use the vendors as intended
  • You guys will need to make the upkeep function in real time if you want to dissuade people from using them as extremely low cost sotrage space.

You should probably add in.

Guilds will elect a player with a number of EK assets and high activity to put up multiple vendors that operate on behalf of other guild members until such a time as other players can place and manage vendor assets on other players EK's.

May even see some of that behavior out of unguilded players, forming ad-hoc trade EK's build on the assets of one trusted player.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

You should probably add in.

Guilds will elect a player with a number of EK assets and high activity to put up multiple vendors that operate on behalf of other guild members until such a time as other players can place and manage vendor assets on other players EK's.

May even see some of that behavior out of unguilded players, forming ad-hoc trade EK's build on the assets of one trusted player.

Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of trust brokering in this iteration.


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Vendors: It's like a crazy social experiment inside of Crowfall! I'm really curious to see how everyone reacts and utilizes it so we can get some more ideas on how to better the system.

Anyway, thanks all for a really productive discussion. I know you all hear it a lot but we really do love hearing your feedback and responses because without you we couldn't keep iterating on these features. I'll pop in again later just in case there are some lingering unanswered questions; thanks everyone!

Valerie "I really like semicolons" Kromas

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I know its early in development and there is a lot to sort out, but I've seen it come up and need to ask:  Do you plan on eventually allowing vendors to be set up in Campaign Worlds?  


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