renoaku

Questions about Terms & Conditions?

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Posted (edited)

Would just like to address a few concerns/questions about the Terms & Conditions of crow fall to be safe.

https://crowfall.com/en/artcraft/terms-and-conditions/

Section 8.1 - 8.5

If I understand correctly.    I assume virtual currency = paid currency of some sort like  gold, or diamonds used in a cash shop?

. A user may not buy "Virtual Currency" from a 3rd party website?
. A user may not trade Virtual Currency for other currency across games or outside favors / Real Life favors?

. Is a user allowed to legally accept Twitch Donations if Streaming, or using Fiverr service?
. Will users be banned for giving away items, or currency to people/friends without anything given in return of equal value?

> Crow Fall may remove currency, or reduce currency purchased from a cash shop for example 100 gems could become 50 overnight / devalue, and they are not responsible for account hacking?

Security Concerns due to experience with another game.

. Is there 2 Factor Authentication in the game yet for Android / Email devices, which has White Listed IP address to help prevent account hacking?

Google & Microsoft Authenticators "SUCK", it would be easier to use SMS, or a reputable 2FA Program like "Steam Games does" because i've used both Google 2FA, and Microsoft 2FA, and whenever you lose your device or have to reset it you have problems getting back in because it forgets everything.

. How about trading "Virtual Currency" directly to other players is this going to be restricted to help prevent "Fraud" I previously backed another game allowed players to buy "Gold" using fraudulent means and trade it to other players resulting in some players who did nothing wrong having their accounts terminated, please tell me "Crow Fall" is going to have some type of protection to prevent this like Black Desert" Black Desert allows players to "Gift Items" but users can't trade currency aka "Pearls directly to others" or exchange it thus preventing "Fraud", although its still possible for players to gift people items using stolen information, this can be tracked down and determined if a user recieves an excessive number of items more than once for example rather than possibly getting it wrong.

The last thing I want to see is a bunch of Bots / Cheaters, or Third Party Gold Sellers committing fraud and trading gold to other players through various trades.

Just some concerns after a previous bad experience with seeing something in a games TOS similar to this.

Edited by renoaku

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, miraluna said:

The FAQ info regarding 2FA:

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/your-account/two-factor-authentication-2fa/

You can choose the 2FA program you prefer.

Is there a 2FA Option that allows me to reset my device, but has a master account or way to easily recover the 2FA on device reset?

I've used both Google & Microsft Authenticator, both seem to have issues when resetting device it no longer displays codes.

Basically reading #4 & #5 of this page it becomes an issue.

. Can't whitelist by IP address once entered a successful Auth Code.

. Can't Deactivate 2FA unless contacting support, so if for some reason you have to hard reset your phone you get locked out of your account until support verify it's you I am not sure if this is true with "Authy" or 1 Password" but with Google & Microsoft Authenticator it seems to lose all data on a device reset after installing the app back.

Edited by renoaku

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You'll have to do more research as to what 2FA program meets your specific requirments. I do know that Authy supports multiple devices.

Relating to some of your other questions:

1. The Crowfall store will eventually use a virtual currency = Crowns  https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/founders-update-more-on-crowns-and-guilds/

2. There is currently a website option for one account to "gift" some of the shop items to another account

3. VIP subscription tokens will eventually be an in-game item that can be traded between players in the Eternal Kingdoms

4. There is a Trusted Traders program https://crowfall.com/en/faq/your-account/trusted-traders/

If you are concerned about your account being banned, do not engage in any RMT or exchange of goods outside of the Crowfall game service or the approved Trusted Traders.

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As for 2FA, you can use your phone and WinAuth to keep track of your codes. If you phone breaks, WinAuth has your back. Although I like the convenience of copying the 2FA code and pasting it in from WinAuth. WinAuth also supports a password to open so it can't be abused by someone.  Attackers can spoof your IP so saving it horrible, although I'd love an easier way to log in, personally.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, miraluna said:

You'll have to do more research as to what 2FA program meets your specific requirments. I do know that Authy supports multiple devices.

Relating to some of your other questions:

1. The Crowfall store will eventually use a virtual currency = Crowns  https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/founders-update-more-on-crowns-and-guilds/

2. There is currently a website option for one account to "gift" some of the shop items to another account

3. VIP subscription tokens will eventually be an in-game item that can be traded between players in the Eternal Kingdoms

4. There is a Trusted Traders program https://crowfall.com/en/faq/your-account/trusted-traders/

If you are concerned about your account being banned, do not engage in any RMT or exchange of goods outside of the Crowfall game service or the approved Trusted Traders.

Okay so basically there will be an option to Gift Other Players, or Trade Tokens like in World OF Warcraft, but players will not be able to buy crowns, and like Exchange Crowns for Gold, or any other currency and give it to other players like in Albion Online, or EVE Online,  Albion which had a horrid experience with this company because the company allowed people to buy gold for Real Money,  and then gold sellers were abusing this trading it to other players in game getting some players completely banned from the game just for trading.

So if I understand this correctly, players won't risk having their account banned for nothing, because there is no ability to like directly trade crowns, or exchange it into other forms of currency, besides Gifting, or Tokens.

I don't buy from 3rd parties, so I really don't think I have anything to worry about although I lost a  4 year old account on another game because they allowed users to directly trade currency obtained from Real Money to in-game currency and such, and someone else who was part of a trade commit fraud, just concerned about this since more and more MMORPG based games are getting Currency valued at Real Money added to them seems to be an issue with dishonest people doing this type of crap, although the other company was a GMBH not a U.S company which I think played a big role in their ignorance, although Warframe allows players to trade Platnium directly to others haven't had an issue there trading yet.

 

10 hours ago, jetah said:

As for 2FA, you can use your phone and WinAuth to keep track of your codes. If you phone breaks, WinAuth has your back. Although I like the convenience of copying the 2FA code and pasting it in from WinAuth. WinAuth also supports a password to open so it can't be abused by someone.  Attackers can spoof your IP so saving it horrible, although I'd love an easier way to log in, personally.

I use Google Auth, but everytime I Reset my device I have to submit a ticket with 3rd party companies to get it unlocked unless its Google, I am not sure if WinAuth is supported is it on the Google Play store, does it like have a master account so I don't have to like Contact customer service every single time my device breaks or I upgrade etc?

Edited by renoaku

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16 hours ago, renoaku said:

Terms & Conditions 

Definitions are important. If a section explicitely mentions a shop currency but not backer reward items, then it is about the shop currency and not about the backer reward items. Besides there is this thing about "unless explicitly authorized" being added sometimes. And if you look close enough, you may be able to find those exceptions. They point that they are not standing next to each other in the rules suggest that they are not meant to be used regularly but to allow a certain grey area which allows ACE/Travian to have some leeway to say it is either this or that.   

But of course this is all dry legal stuff. In the past ACE has proven a very high level of common sense to the community. Not at least because of their enormous experience in MMO's, they know what rules they can enforce or not. And they are really fair when it comes to the question if someone acted in the very best meaning - but also from time to time very strict if someone obviously stretches the rules too much to obviously only serve himself. 

In the end it is: Read the rules and follow them. If you want to find (intended or uninteded) loopholes, look deeper. If you think they are uninteded or if you are not sure, ask support@crowfall.com. If you think something might be a loophole - but in your opinion within the rules - you should be save to do it, though i would suggest to reinsure by calling support before or after doing so.

This is by the way my recommendation regarding the current status, while ACE themselves are doing the customer service. This may change once (if) Travian policy takes over.


~reading new post~


7 minutes ago, renoaku said:

Okay so basically there will be an option to Gift Other Players, or Trade Tokens like in World OF Warcraft, but players will not be able to buy crowns, and like Exchange Crowns for Gold, or any other currency and give it to other players like in Albion Online, or EVE Online,  Albion which had a horrid experience with this company because the company allowed people to buy gold for Real Money,  and then gold sellers were abusing this trading it to other players in game getting some players completely banned from the game just for trading.

So if I understand this correctly, players won't risk having their account banned for nothing, because there is no ability to like directly trade crowns, or exchange it into other forms of currency, besides Gifting, or Tokens.

I don't buy from 3rd parties, so I really don't think I have anything to worry about although I lost a  4 year old account on another game because they allowed users to directly trade currency obtained from Real Money to in-game currency and such, and someone else who was part of a trade commit fraud, just concerned about this since more and more MMORPG based games are getting Currency valued at Real Money added to them seems to be an issue with dishonest people doing this type of crap, although the other company was a GMBH not a U.S company which I think played a big role in their ignorance.

 

I use Google Auth, but everytime I Reset my device I have to submit a ticket with 3rd party companies to get it unlocked unless its Google, I am not sure if WinAuth is supported is it on the Google Play store, does it like have a master account so I don't have to like Contact customer service every single time my device breaks or I upgrade etc?

There already is an option to gift backer rewards. You can access the list of your backer rewards here. You can gift them or accept/decline gifts from others here. To do so, both you and the sender/recipient have 2FA to be installed in the moment of sending or accepting/declining, which can be done here. For all of those you have to be logged in on the website.

The shop currency (Crowns), as far as i know (it's not implemented yet), can not be transferred between players. Ingame currency can, though. But ingame currencies are just items like any other item. You will have to move them physically from one point to another to give them to others. You can't send them, for example, just by mailing it to someone. And of course such a travel is always accompanied by the risk to get killed and looted. So it's not a problem as big as in most other games.

And regarding the 2FA. If you somehow got problems with your 2FA, it has been said that in the future there will be some kind of a reset mechanic. Meanwhile you can always contact support@crowfall.com if there is a problem with your 2FA and they will reset it for you manually (and they are really fast and not like the outsourced support companies we usually know from other games -  support@crowfall.com is currently your direct-line to the developers ... having an issue not solved within 24 hours is an absolute exception - so don't worry to contact them).

Have fun, good luck

Kraahk

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1 hour ago, renoaku said:

Okay so basically there will be an option to Gift Other Players, or Trade Tokens like in World OF Warcraft, but players will not be able to buy crowns, and like Exchange Crowns for Gold, or any other currency and give it to other players like in Albion Online, or EVE Online,  Albion which had a horrid experience with this company because the company allowed people to buy gold for Real Money,  and then gold sellers were abusing this trading it to other players in game getting some players completely banned from the game just for trading.

So if I understand this correctly, players won't risk having their account banned for nothing, because there is no ability to like directly trade crowns, or exchange it into other forms of currency, besides Gifting, or Tokens.

I don't buy from 3rd parties, so I really don't think I have anything to worry about although I lost a  4 year old account on another game because they allowed users to directly trade currency obtained from Real Money to in-game currency and such, and someone else who was part of a trade commit fraud, just concerned about this since more and more MMORPG based games are getting Currency valued at Real Money added to them seems to be an issue with dishonest people doing this type of crap, although the other company was a GMBH not a U.S company which I think played a big role in their ignorance, although Warframe allows players to trade Platnium directly to others haven't had an issue there trading yet.

 

I use Google Auth, but everytime I Reset my device I have to submit a ticket with 3rd party companies to get it unlocked unless its Google, I am not sure if WinAuth is supported is it on the Google Play store, does it like have a master account so I don't have to like Contact customer service every single time my device breaks or I upgrade etc?

I use my phone for 2FA AND my pc with WinAuth 2FA. If my PHONE dies, I have a backup! There isnt a need to have a master account when you have a 2FA backup.

 

99% of all mmos are the same with 3rd party gold/item sales; they hate it.

if you buy a VIP and trade it for stuff in game, you're fine. If you buy stuff via a non-ACE website then it's 3rd party. consider Crowfall will be closer to Eve Online, WoW and Warframe with regards to buy from developer then trade with players. There is a slim chance someone purchased a weapon/gear from a 3rd party website then trades that for your VIP. It's possible you'll get banned but you should be cleared when they investigate it.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, jetah said:

I use my phone for 2FA AND my pc with WinAuth 2FA. If my PHONE dies, I have a backup! There isnt a need to have a master account when you have a 2FA backup.

 

99% of all mmos are the same with 3rd party gold/item sales; they hate it.

if you buy a VIP and trade it for stuff in game, you're fine. If you buy stuff via a non-ACE website then it's 3rd party. consider Crowfall will be closer to Eve Online, WoW and Warframe with regards to buy from developer then trade with players. There is a slim chance someone purchased a weapon/gear from a 3rd party website then trades that for your VIP. It's possible you'll get banned but you should be cleared when they investigate it.

3

Well, I plan on keeping my pack, not selling it lol.

My main concern though is on Release is getting an account banned just for trading in game, or accepting a trade from someone who may have done something illegal they shouldn't have, this may not be a problem with Crow Fall as there is like no currency conversion which allows players to easily commit fraud and the currency then gets passed around in a nutshell which can get people into trouble.

When a person does a trade in game, service, or on Steam they generally expect the person to be honest and do the trade without trying to scam which isn't always the case because i've run into scammers on Steam for example and stuff I know it happens.

Back in the day with EVE, FFXI, even WOW, you didn't actually get banned on any first offense even if you did buy from a 3rd party the most that happened usually is the currency would be deleted from the user's account, Although it seems that most game companies are taking the issue more seriously which is awesome, but then leads to the concern about if a user accepts such a trade in game, and another person did something you generally shouldn't have to worry about losing your account because of another person's actions.

As far as I know though botting in Crow Fall is said to not really be possible, and the only thing worth real money that can be traded is VIP Tokens, so the concern here is what type of measures are being taken to prevent "Fraud" to protect "Crow Fall" as a game, and "Players" for example if a person buys 50 of these tokens and decides to sell, give them away to someone they think is a friend, or trade them for other items but later decides to do a charge-back aka fraud, if a person risks losing their account for receiving one of these.

It's not like a game company can see a person "Banking Transactions" anyways so the only proof they can actually go on is what actually happens in the game itself, but I've ran into some jac* as* game staff before on other games that like to claim otherwise and had a Real Money conversion system in the game like Guild Wars which makes me very concerned about games I play having systems that allow tokens or currency that is worth real money and can be traded if you are on the receiving end of accepting a trade with someone who may have done something wrong.

Edited by renoaku

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9 hours ago, renoaku said:

Well, I plan on keeping my pack, not selling it lol.

My main concern though is on Release is getting an account banned just for trading in game, or accepting a trade from someone who may have done something illegal they shouldn't have, this may not be a problem with Crow Fall as there is like no currency conversion which allows players to easily commit fraud and the currency then gets passed around in a nutshell which can get people into trouble.

When a person does a trade in game, service, or on Steam they generally expect the person to be honest and do the trade without trying to scam which isn't always the case because i've run into scammers on Steam for example and stuff I know it happens.

Back in the day with EVE, FFXI, even WOW, you didn't actually get banned on any first offense even if you did buy from a 3rd party the most that happened usually is the currency would be deleted from the user's account, Although it seems that most game companies are taking the issue more seriously which is awesome, but then leads to the concern about if a user accepts such a trade in game, and another person did something you generally shouldn't have to worry about losing your account because of another person's actions.

As far as I know though botting in Crow Fall is said to not really be possible, and the only thing worth real money that can be traded is VIP Tokens, so the concern here is what type of measures are being taken to prevent "Fraud" to protect "Crow Fall" as a game, and "Players" for example if a person buys 50 of these tokens and decides to sell, give them away to someone they think is a friend, or trade them for other items but later decides to do a charge-back aka fraud, if a person risks losing their account for receiving one of these.

It's not like a game company can see a person "Banking Transactions" anyways so the only proof they can actually go on is what actually happens in the game itself, but I've ran into some jac* as* game staff before on other games that like to claim otherwise and had a Real Money conversion system in the game like Guild Wars which makes me very concerned about games I play having systems that allow tokens or currency that is worth real money and can be traded if you are on the receiving end of accepting a trade with someone who may have done something wrong.

if the other person was involved in 3rd party trades then you could be flagged for an investigation but usually the developers will side with an innocent trader. 

in your example, which can happen. is the developers put a total cap on how much can be purchased each month. it might be 500$ or ~33 VIP. If they reverse the charges then the account that purchased them should be banned (i'm assuming this) but I'm not sure how ACE, specifically, will handle the VIP after they're traded.

For the most part as long as you trade and use the in game chat for terms, you'll be ok. It's possible to be flagged but the investigation should clear you of that.

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2 hours ago, jetah said:

if the other person was involved in 3rd party trades then you could be flagged for an investigation but usually the developers will side with an innocent trader. 

in your example, which can happen. is the developers put a total cap on how much can be purchased each month. it might be 500$ or ~33 VIP. If they reverse the charges then the account that purchased them should be banned (i'm assuming this) but I'm not sure how ACE, specifically, will handle the VIP after they're traded.

For the most part as long as you trade and use the in game chat for terms, you'll be ok. It's possible to be flagged but the investigation should clear you of that.

5

Awesome thanks for the info I am likely just too concerned after losing my 4 year Albion account for no reason, but rather their reason was buying currency from a 3rd party even though it never took place and never was proven after a in game trade with someone who based off the company did a charge-back fraud but was never proven although under their EULA it says if you trade any items, but don't get anything of equal value in return, your basically automatically guilty of a 3rd party trade.

But absolutely I only trade within the game, or voice comms such as discord with Guild Members, or such but never any "Real Money Trading" So I assume I should be okay then? Assuming that by unlikely chance I ever cross paths with a dishonest person?

So basically to my understanding based off this there is actual investigations and no unjust bans except for those who actually violate the terms.

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33 minutes ago, renoaku said:

Awesome thanks for the info I am likely just too concerned after losing my 4 year Albion account for no reason, but rather their reason was buying currency from a 3rd party even though it never took place and never was proven after a in game trade with someone who based off the company did a charge-back fraud but was never proven although under their EULA it says if you trade any items, but don't get anything of equal value in return, your basically automatically guilty of a 3rd party trade.

But absolutely I only trade within the game, or voice comms such as discord with Guild Members, or such but never any "Real Money Trading" So I assume I should be okay then? Assuming that by unlikely chance I ever cross paths with a dishonest person?

So basically to my understanding based off this there is actual investigations and no unjust bans except for those who actually violate the terms.

some people have 1000-10000$ in this game so I doubt ACE will just ban someone without doing an investigation. Trades between guild members and others are fine so long as there isn't a RMT outside of the game for it. Even then it would be difficult for ACE to say it was an RMT. You'll be fine.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2018 at 3:21 PM, jetah said:

some people have 1000-10000$ in this game so I doubt ACE will just ban someone without doing an investigation. Trades between guild members and others are fine so long as there isn't a RMT outside of the game for it. Even then it would be difficult for ACE to say it was an RMT. You'll be fine.

 

Awesome thanks for the info, I am just likely too concerned about user agreements that have this policy after losing an account on a game I backed 4 years ago almost $300 into the game which totally sucked, but their Terms OF Service that I really didn't read said that if you receive currency or items without anything in Equal Value, they would assume you purchased it for real money, and given I was gifted some currency/items during the final beta, they totally banned the account without any actual investigation because based off what the staff from the company said the other users who trade with me got currency/items from someone who did a charge-back or something was a big mess,  so now I read these agreements every time, and just make sure.

But great to see that Crow Fall, will have peoples back if someone is unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of one of these types of trades, at least I know EVE,WOW, even Final Fantasy XI, and XIV generally do not perm-ban its users even those who are guilty of actually buying from a 3rd party on a first offense which generally no one should ever run into people who are doing fraud like every day or something like that obviously.

Quote

4.5.1 Users are prohibited from selling, purchasing, renting, leasing, offering, accepting, disseminating or copying Virtual Benefits, including Virtual Currency, within and/or outside the Game - in whatever form – to/from third parties unless expressly permitted by these Terms and Conditions or the Game Rules. An in game-system provided by the Game or by Sandbox Interactive to trade Virtual Benefits of the Game constitutes such an exception. In this case, the transfer of Virtual Benefits from one User to the other is only permitted if the transfer takes place - no matter if within or outside the Game – either without any form of consideration or with consideration if the consideration consists solely of Virtual Property or Virtual Currency of the Game and such is transferred within the Game itself or via a function provided by the Game. The acquisition of Virtual Benefits in exchange for any form of consideration other than Virtual Property or Virtual Currency of the Game is expressly prohibited. If the User trades or exchanges Virtual Benefits on a large scale without a comparable value obtained within the Game, then it is assumed that the User violates this rule. The User is entitled to provide counter-evidence.

 

This is one of the stupidest user agreements I have ever seen in a sandbox game totally damaging to me because it disrupts free trade, in fact, I know a group of people from the game I talk about that violate this rule every day by accepting investments without anything of equal value in return provided but game company allows them, as well as with the recent update totally broke the game by not doing proper testing, allowing users who bought tomes to buy a bunch of them and resell making a ton of extra gold as defined in their patch notes then threatening to ban users for exploiting because of their mistake.

This is one good reason, Why I look to Crow Fall being a much better game, and It's a U.S based company too which I feel makes a difference compared to overseas that generally thinks everyone is guilty on sight, and I believe Crow Fall, actually does proper testing before deploying an update to the game so for example an item that is worth lets say 100 silver 5 patches ago won't suddenly be worth 1 million silver 5 patches later resulting in billions of silver being given for free.

Edited by renoaku

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