makkon

Myrmidon 5.5 statement

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Yes, another topic. Lets refresh it

Hopes this will end up in devs mind and refresh the problem. I know what current goal is to fix performance but still - there are already 1+ year no investigating to this class.

I ended up with conclusion what myrmidon is only class for principial fans atm.

This mean what he is pretty much useless in team fights compared to any other single class in the end game with current balance (1 year+ skill tree lvling and top end gear from both fighting sides).

Theses (bolded):

It seems myrm has no tank potential because of amount of CC around and mechanics which are pretty much based on animation locks which are taking bunch of time to load up. 6 seconds of berserker (not 8 because of animation lock) does not seems to help alot compared for example, to 3k+ heal self (champion). Yes, he can tank like god only if there is no CC around. The situation is aggravated by desyncs and bugs very much. Amount of utility which is possible to get by any other classes is terrible. All basic kits which was builded/reworked/balanced around SP period should be reworked again. Best example here is Druid orbs explosion which was based on what there will be not so much access to CC by druid's. Now they just stacking orbs and do dirty things with 90% chance. Risk vs reward not justified for this class.

Bad dps potential because of melee which are pretty much based on random buffs. There is only LMB which are doing some DPS atm. From whole basic kit only 2 skills are usefull for DPS - LMB and taste for blood passive. But very random. This class has no burst also.

Above problem intensified by low amount of synergy builds via disciplines. This class is not flexible like, for example, ranger or assassin.

No self heal. Right, why he need it, this is team based game. So why all other melee have it? And please, do not tell me what berserker is healing buff. Templar's and champions self heal does not kick ur ass with 5k self hits.

No escape and harrass potential because no mobility. close to zero dps (except boring LMB spam), zero utility, semi broken half of basic kit, low cc (after root get everyone and rataliate working on all kind of CC). anyway the most laught here is what if they only buff 1-2 basic core skills it become again very powerfull.
hope we will wait until they fix it.

Lowest basic kit. Can't fix and wont make new? Lets cut some skills to minotaur instead to make some new mechanics (funny compared to classes with 2 panels). And so come down (see image below)

hqdefault.jpg

 

Brokend skills for years. May be such topics does not comes out if at least net pull and net charge working correctly. This way I can get in fight with. Some combos still useless and gives nothing except eating time and fury. Some even does not land targets (no effect). All this was listed in bug reports multiple times. And so come down. Well, at least you fix berserker (except crash desync) taste for blood crash damage reduction and give stackable damage multiplier which is pretty much useless because of 6 (lol) seconds and access to leather armor.

All you did last year with myrmidon - nerfs and broke a lot of skills without fix.

I can list and list. Call me whiner but this is truth. Did you see alot of this class? No. Why if only 1-2 rangers  with top gear can eat whole raid with multiple healers.

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Spot on ..

I test the Myrm, without bow, because it's a challenge as reflected in Makkon's descriptions of the Myrm's limitations.

My suggestions 

- Berzerker- increase the timer to really reflect eight seconds plus add in the juggernauts anti cc mechanic during the zerk timer. Myrm's already have to react to the crash as well as making sure taste of blood etc has procced. With opponent cc, which is endless, interrupting the crash as well as the Myrm's multiple other requirements to break the crash something has to give. As it is now Myrm's are forced to take juggernaut disc just to be able to use a core mechanic. Not sure any other class is so major disc dependent. 

- LMB is the prime dps as Making describes. Berzerker should have an increase dps component. This would also need to be balance vs the half Giants Blood of the giant skill. When I think of zerkers I see slayers who not only soak damage but also increase their damage output.

- Bloodied Swipe and it's follow ups feel the weakest on the tray. To aid mobility I would suggest the Bloodied Swipe provide a speed movement buff applied to Myrm. At the very least at a snare component to the gore follow up.

- Not sure how I feel on the all the other tanks having heals. Perhaps a disc for Myrm only, a passive, that allows for applied bleeds to proc a small self heal dot.

As a side note, without changes, the vast majority of Myrm's will be Half Giants due to the advantage of blood of the giant being able to prevent crashing as well. Kinda like everyone playing centaur champs 😊

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10 minutes ago, Barab said:

- Berzerker- increase the timer to really reflect eight seconds plus add in the juggernauts anti cc mechanic during the zerk timer. Myrm's already have to react to the crash as well as making sure taste of blood etc has procced. With opponent cc, which is endless, interrupting the crash as well as the Myrm's multiple other requirements to break the crash something has to give. As it is now Myrm's are forced to take juggernaut disc just to be able to use a core mechanic. Not sure any other class is so major disc dependent. 

Building Juggernaut "unstoppable" mechanic into Berserk is an interesting idea. I agree that Jugg is a required disc for a myrm for the anti CC buff. However, I think building CC immunity into berserk would put it over the top. Maybe increased resolve would be a better idea so it is more difficult to CC a myrm but not impossible? Or what about increased stamina regeneration so that a myrm was both more mobile and more able to use retaliate if they do get CC? 

13 minutes ago, Barab said:

- LMB is the prime dps as Making describes. Berzerker should have an increase dps component. This would also need to be balance vs the half Giants Blood of the giant skill. When I think of zerkers I see slayers who not only soak damage but also increase their damage output.

Berserk supposedly does have a DPS increase component. It goes from 0-20% damage increase based on the amount of damage you take while berserk. The heart meter is supposed to fill up red to indicate both how much damage you've taken and how much damage bonus you have. This damage increase isn't very noticable though because berserk doesn't last very long anymore. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
  • Increase Berserk Duration to 10-12 seconds from 8. Base up time should be roughly 66% so if berserk lasts 10 seconds the cooldown should be 15 seconds. 
  • Increase scent of blood from 25% crash mitigation to 50% crash mitigation for striking a bleeding target while berserk. Increase the duration of scent of blood from 3 seconds to 6 seconds. This will make juggernaut and blood of the giants less necessary if you're able to mitigate more of the crash this way. 
  • Remove fury cost from LMB. 
  • Double in combat stamina regeneration while berserk. This will allow the myrm to closer the gap better using sprint, increase mobility, and/or use retaliate more to prevent CC from causing a crash. This would also make blood of the gaints / juggernaut less necessary for myrmidon. 
  • Fix the berserk heart meter so that it actually fills up with red so you can see how much damage you've taken and your damage bonus. 
  • Increase the total possible damage bonus on berserk from 20% to 40%. Keep in mind that damage modifier caps at 40% anyways (IIRC). This would mainly allow the myrmidon to build some damage bonus a little faster since Berserk doesn't last nearly as long as it used to. 

 

Edited by blazzen

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blazzen said:
  • Increase Berserk Duration to 10-12 seconds from 8. Base up time should be roughly 66% so if berserk lasts 10 seconds the cooldown should be 15 seconds. 
  • Increase scent of blood from 25% crash mitigation to 50% crash mitigation for striking a bleeding target while berserk. Increase the duration of scent of blood from 3 seconds to 6 seconds. This will make juggernaut and blood of the giants less necessary if you're able to mitigate more of the crash this way. 
  • Remove fury cost from LMB. 
  • Double in combat stamina regeneration while berserk. This will allow the myrm to closer the gap better using sprint, increase mobility, and/or use retaliate more to prevent CC from causing a crash. This would also make blood of the gaints / juggernaut less necessary for myrmidon. 
  • Fix the berserk heart meter so that it actually fills up with red so you can see how much damage you've taken and your damage bonus. 
  • Increase the total possible damage bonus on berserk from 20% to 40%. Keep in mind that damage modifier caps at 40% anyways (IIRC). This would mainly allow the myrmidon to build some damage bonus a little faster since Berserk doesn't last nearly as long as it used to. 

 

All good suggestions, but I’d go further to say crash damage shouldn’t be fatal. It should custard you up with 5-10% of your health, but it shouldn’t flatline you. You’d still be very vulnerable, but in super large fights where youre lagging or other server shenanigans are happening you won’t flat out be dead. I think the current system relies too much on performance being good to great when history in this game and others have shown us otherwise.

Edited by izkimar

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1 hour ago, izkimar said:

All good suggestions, but I’d go further to say crash damage shouldn’t be fatal. It should custard you up with 5-10% of your health, but it shouldn’t flatline you. You’d still be very vulnerable, but in super large fights where youre lagging or other server shenanigans are happening you won’t flat out be dead. I think the current system relies too much on performance being good to great when history in this game and others have shown us otherwise.

If striking a bleeding target within the last 6 seconds of berserk mitigates the crash 50% then I think even with bad performance it should be fine. 

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'However, I think building CC immunity into berserk would put it over the top"

Most Myrm's are hitting juggernaut cc break now during zerk anyway. But sure maybe an increase in cc resist or a protective resist vs knockdown and stun only would.work as well. Something needs to give in the forcing Myrm's to take the juggernaut disc just so they can properly use their core mechanic.

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Bersek uptime should be 50% uptime, 60% max.

I very much dislike having 5 or so seconds to damage a Myrm before they bersek again. 10- 15 seconds is more reasonable to me.

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Posted (edited)

I not sure they even should keep same old mechanics. My post is just reminder what this class should be reworked and fixed around group fights.

I even did not suggest already how because this is a waste of time - there are alot of ways to get it works with current statement. I thinking about berserker CC immunity also, but at half of duration from activating - yes.

De facto - this class atm - melee LMB spammer without any utility, movement, decent CC (except semi-broken root)

You can pretty much remove from panel all class skills but berserker (usefull in CC if you get focused) and whirlwind (to fast buff self with taste for blood) and may be net (they fixed net charge in 5.5). all other are just waste of fury and time. actually you can remove from panel everyting and just LMB and buff/support.

no need to juggernault's - long CC immun CD, regen from healers are much effective. all old disciplines are fixed (standard bearer, field surgeon and such)

bow is also boring LMB spam. I not sure why they should take it if you can choose ranger instead.

 

there are much more usefull classes in team fights than myrmidon. they better in small scale and even in 1v1. it does not mean what myrmidon can't do anything - yes, you can overgear or sometimes kill some1 but not such effective than with other classes.

the question is why they not fix obvious OP anymore so fast as they did before

Edited by makkon

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Posted (edited)

To major problem with Myrm at the moment, IMO, is that the class seems to be designed as a sort of "shock trooper" burst damage melee, built to jump in to a fight, deliver a heavy damage spike, and be sturdy enough to remain standing while the rest of the group mobs up or throws heals.

The Champion is essentially the reverse, built primarily to STAY in a fight and tank while focusing single targets.

Considering Myrm design as a tank class doesn't seem like the right thing to do. They're not tanks, they're berserkers. You shouldn't be annoyed that you can't deal enough damage to kill a Myrm. You should be afraid to try to deal that much damage because making Myrms mad makes it much easier for them to kill you.

The problem they have is that they can't berserk effectively. If we view Myrm as a "reverse Champion" then it follows that part of the Myrm class kit should be a front loaded defensive buffs sufficient to cover a generally squishy build and tank hits at the beginning of an engagement similar to how Champions have a "back loaded" defensive buff.

Myrm lacks initiation and damage inflation tools required to do the thing the class seems to theoretically be designed to do, jump in to a group of people and deal a bunch of damage quickly, then rely on berserking to sustain long enough to finish killing them or exit to a safer position. Hitting a myrmidon should be the last thing you want to do at the beginning of an engagement, and proper counterplay should be countering his ability to build rage with CC, but he needs potent anti-CC tools so he can at least attempt to initiate and the problem is he doesn't have them, and thus can't fill the role of "melee AoE shock trooper" he seems designed to be.

Rather than focusing on increasing his sustain, what Myrmidon needs more than anything is potent initiation tools and short term damage and CC mitigation to aid in initiating. Champion's focus is, theoretically, to be your top 1v1 melee class, and Myrm to be your top group fight melee class, but currently Champion's overtuned self heals and mobility are stealing all of Myrm's thunder.

Myrm class kit needs powers that are specifically better in group engagements than Champions. Extending damage buffs from berserk, scaling mitigation up by taking damage from multiple sources, built in lifesteal with cleaves, etc. It doesn't need to be a better tank. It needs to be a better berserker.

Ideally that means less active attack powers, relying on LMB and whirlwind for just "button mashing" to spam cleaving damage in true berserking fashion, and using active abilities to spend rage specifically to buff either damage, mobility, or survivability as the situation dictates. As a perserker, he should scale extremely well based specifically on how many people he is hitting, and how many people are hitting him, and right now he doesn't scale that well and thus is effectively prevented from being the "just dive in to the enemy stack and hit everyone" kinda class he should be.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Posted (edited)
On 15.03.2018 at 6:43 PM, PopeUrban said:

The Champion is essentially the reverse, built primarily to STAY in a fight and tank while focusing single targets.

the champion was designed as glass cannon melee which are simply connected to your first sentence:

On 15.03.2018 at 6:43 PM, PopeUrban said:

To major problem with Myrm at the moment, IMO, is that the class seems to be designed as a sort of "shock trooper" burst damage melee, built to jump in to a fight, deliver a heavy damage spike, and be sturdy enough to remain standing while the rest of the group mobs up or throws heals

 

ACE told it multiple times early.

With access to new disciplines, new CC break system, race skills and some reworks on core mechanics (armor for example), champion can be very very tanky (over 70% mitigation with some discs). put ontop of it huge self heal, double C and best melee mobility and here we go - burst mobility tank. hit -> kite 'n' heal -> get dominion -> hit

 

myrmidon designed as offence tank. atm he can't tank starting from small scale fights. de facto. right after 2-3+ enemy around -> he is not a tank. so, who is myrmidon? LMB uncontrollable burst dealer? burst is champion, ranger. even duelist and confessor, not a myrmidon. so which role for this class?

imo offence should be stackable (berserker) over time right after he did some hits on enemy. stack in fight, raise in fight else default effect. and not 6 seconds.

On 15.03.2018 at 6:43 PM, PopeUrban said:

It doesn't need to be a better tank. It needs to be a better berserker.

yes. tank or berserker. core utility should be reworked with some core basic mechanics.

Edited by makkon

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Posted (edited)

For the most part, I'm fine with how Myrm is currently, outside of bugs. Mainly the one where I crash earlier than I'm supposed to.  It has been the  primary reason for all of my deaths so far.  However, I've won a few 1vX fights at this point and those I've lost I held on for a lot longer than I would have on my Champ. I'd say the class is very tanky and eventually people will complain about it after Champ gets nerfed and if more people start promoting the class.

Even though I've discovered ways to not rely 100% on  juggernaut, it's still the  bis disc which I think should be fixed on Myrm's end somehow. A few of the classes have extra effects on their retaliate, so maybe they can look at buffing  myrm's ret  for anti-CC.

On 3/14/2018 at 10:01 AM, blazzen said:
  • Increase Berserk Duration to 10-12 seconds from 8. Base up time should be roughly 66% so if berserk lasts 10 seconds the cooldown should be 15 seconds. 
  • Increase scent of blood from 25% crash mitigation to 50% crash mitigation for striking a bleeding target while berserk. Increase the duration of scent of blood from 3 seconds to 6 seconds. This will make juggernaut and blood of the giants less necessary if you're able to mitigate more of the crash this way. 
  • Remove fury cost from LMB. 
  • Double in combat stamina regeneration while berserk. This will allow the myrm to closer the gap better using sprint, increase mobility, and/or use retaliate more to prevent CC from causing a crash. This would also make blood of the gaints / juggernaut less necessary for myrmidon. 
  • Fix the berserk heart meter so that it actually fills up with red so you can see how much damage you've taken and your damage bonus. 
  • Increase the total possible damage bonus on berserk from 20% to 40%. Keep in mind that damage modifier caps at 40% anyways (IIRC). This would mainly allow the myrmidon to build some damage bonus a little faster since Berserk doesn't last nearly as long as it used to. 

 

I like a lot of your changes. I also assumed the mitigation for Blood Scent was 50% since it covered half the heart.. 25% is really awful, if that's the case. LMB costing energy is definitely an  issue. Currently it takes about  -20% fpcm before you can start using other skills more reliably, like your stun, without ruining your chances of having the energy for Pulverize(that's also when you're positive for energy regen while holding left click). Pre  -20% fpcm you're just a left clicking beast when rng dictates. 

Edited by AceSiN

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9 minutes ago, makkon said:

myrmidon main 5.5 issue:

That happens when punch drunk activates to reset the berserk cooldown while you're berserk also. If you use berserk again before the crash to reset the buff duration you'll lose the timer on the UI widget. However, I believe the buff in the top right of your screen is still accurate (although extremely hard to read mid fight given all the other buffs typically active). 

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7 hours ago, blazzen said:

That happens when punch drunk activates to reset the berserk cooldown while you're berserk also. If you use berserk again before the crash to reset the buff duration you'll lose the timer on the UI widget. However, I believe the buff in the top right of your screen is still accurate (although extremely hard to read mid fight given all the other buffs typically active). 

UI bug is global and triggered on every real berserker cooldown bypass.

Yes, top right is accurate but I even tried to macro scan this icon to monitor duration and have no success. The mess in top right is uncontrolled

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Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2018 at 2:20 AM, makkon said:

Yes, another topic. Lets refresh it

Hopes this will end up in devs mind and refresh the problem. I know what current goal is to fix performance but still - there are already 1+ year no investigating to this class.

I ended up with conclusion what myrmidon is only class for principial fans atm.

This mean what he is pretty much useless in team fights compared to any other single class in the end game with current balance (1 year+ skill tree lvling and top end gear from both fighting sides).

Theses (bolded):

It seems myrm has no tank potential because of amount of CC around and mechanics which are pretty much based on animation locks which are taking bunch of time to load up. 6 seconds of berserker (not 8 because of animation lock) does not seems to help alot compared for example, to 3k+ heal self (champion). Yes, he can tank like god only if there is no CC around. The situation is aggravated by desyncs and bugs very much. Amount of utility which is possible to get by any other classes is terrible. All basic kits which was builded/reworked/balanced around SP period should be reworked again. Best example here is Druid orbs explosion which was based on what there will be not so much access to CC by druid's. Now they just stacking orbs and do dirty things with 90% chance. Risk vs reward not justified for this class.

Bad dps potential because of melee which are pretty much based on random buffs. There is only LMB which are doing some DPS atm. From whole basic kit only 2 skills are usefull for DPS - LMB and taste for blood passive. But very random. This class has no burst also.

Above problem intensified by low amount of synergy builds via disciplines. This class is not flexible like, for example, ranger or assassin.

No self heal. Right, why he need it, this is team based game. So why all other melee have it? And please, do not tell me what berserker is healing buff. Templar's and champions self heal does not kick ur ass with 5k self hits.

No escape and harrass potential because no mobility. close to zero dps (except boring LMB spam), zero utility, semi broken half of basic kit, low cc (after root get everyone and rataliate working on all kind of CC). anyway the most laught here is what if they only buff 1-2 basic core skills it become again very powerfull.
hope we will wait until they fix it.

Lowest basic kit. Can't fix and wont make new? Lets cut some skills to minotaur instead to make some new mechanics (funny compared to classes with 2 panels). And so come down (see image below)

hqdefault.jpg

 

Brokend skills for years. May be such topics does not comes out if at least net pull and net charge working correctly. This way I can get in fight with. Some combos still useless and gives nothing except eating time and fury. Some even does not land targets (no effect). All this was listed in bug reports multiple times. And so come down. Well, at least you fix berserker (except crash desync) taste for blood crash damage reduction and give stackable damage multiplier which is pretty much useless because of 6 (lol) seconds and access to leather armor.

All you did last year with myrmidon - nerfs and broke a lot of skills without fix.

I can list and list. Call me whiner but this is truth. Did you see alot of this class? No. Why if only 1-2 rangers  with top gear can eat whole raid with multiple healers.

Considering a lot of this is currently what I am dealing with after putting hours upon hours in as a Myrm on Live; yeah...I am thoroughly bummed out now. 

 

On 4/18/2018 at 6:12 PM, makkon said:

myrmidon main 5.5 issue:

 

ontop of current broken skills

...I would feel dirty using this if that is intended. >_<

Anyway, I think that Myrm seriously needs some love from ACE sometime soon. Because its so janky to play and doesn't exactly mesh with any other class I have played alongside with in general. The most useful tool at our disposal is the Net-Grab. Other then that, I just hold LMB most of the time with little use of my powers except when getting focused, going into HEAL ALL DAMAGE mode and spamming my -potential- bleeds in the hope of landing some on the nearest target.

Just gonna stick with practicing Cleric and Templar till something goes positive for Myrm.

Edited by Theoval

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