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2v6 noob smashing


blazzen
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Vet vs. noob gap? What vet vs. noob gap? :rolleyes:

Game knowledge and player skill helps but skill training and gear matters most. 10x training and access to R10 nodes has shown us this during 5.4.

If the goal is 1/3 player skill, 1/3 training, 1/3 gear then I’d say we have a long ways to go. If you ask me the goal should be 1/2 player skill, 1/4 skill training, 1/4 gear.

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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15 minutes ago, yianni said:

yeah i didnt take that fight serious haha, made some bad moves and died. granted most were pounding me

Your death orb took out the Knight and Templar so u didn’t die in vain! 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

If the goal is 1/3 player skill, 1/3 training, 1/3 gear then I’d say we have a long ways to go. If you ask me the goal should be 1/2 player skill, 1/4 skill training, 1/4 gear.

What would you estimate the proportions were in that fight?

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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

What would you estimate the proportions were in that fight?

20/40/40

Duelist, confessor and champion all got deleted with LMBs over 1k. That’s gear and training.

I could tell the Champion knew what he was doing as far as building dominance with leap and using his ultimate but his suppress crit me for 400. My LMB crit him for 1974. That’s gear and training - not much he could do.

The duelist and confessor were noobs gear, training and skill wise.

Druid, knight and Templar appeared to have advanced gear but who knows how good it was and what their skill training was. My armor was nothing special (white/green) but my axes were good (128 dmg, 0 PCM).

Templar and Knight ate Druid orb and died. Noob move that’s on them skill wise. Druid was the best of the 3 and did a decent job staying alive but was far from top tier. Not slippery enough.

The 3 guys in basic didn’t stand a chance. They might as well not have been there. They basically padded my stats during that fight and that is the main issue I see.

20% skill, 40% training, 40% gear.

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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The fact that two guys died to a death orb is pretty important. The duelist taking so much dmg is not surprising to me. I think if the templar and knight had not died so foolishly (game knowledge) you might have had a tougher time finishing off the rest.

But yeah, in general I agree that gear and passive training bonuses at "end game" is pretty huge.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not sure what this is doing in "crows of a feather".  I would put this in Dev Partners if I was you if you want ACE to see it.

Just sayin.

 

Why does it need to go there? I think its good that everyone can see it and discuss it. Your comment comes across as ACE ignores the majority of their own forums and only really value the opinions of their whales :(

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3 minutes ago, PAINDOTCOM said:

This is why campaigns will have rulesets, this way people way under geared/skill training wont be mixed with higher unless they chose to be. outside of dregs I believe

While that is true, it takes a long time for those players to catch up with the veterans. Certainly longer than in most other games, because you can't grind it out.  It would be interesting how much of that fight is due to skilltraining. If most of that dmg comes from the gear, that would still be a bit problematic, but those differences can be bridged more easily. 

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5 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

The fact that two guys died to a death orb is pretty important.

I agree, but for what it’s worth Yianni said he died mainly because he fat fingered his ultimate earlier in the fight when he didn’t need it. I probably should’ve continued peeling for him rather than going on the Druid but the only thing I have that can peel 3 is my ultimate which I used to do just that earlier in the fight.

57 minutes ago, PAINDOTCOM said:

We also have to remember blazzen is one of the best myrm players in game (if not the best) his skill with the class is top notch. 

I think I’m one of very few who even play myrmidon anymore but I’ll take the compliment anyways! I did well this fight timing crashes however I don’t think I took all that much dmg for it to have mattered much.

 

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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5 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not sure what this is doing in "crows of a feather".  I would put this in Dev Partners if I was you if you want ACE to see it.

Just sayin.

 

 

3 hours ago, Badwolfe said:

Why does it need to go there? I think its good that everyone can see it and discuss it. Your comment comes across as ACE ignores the majority of their own forums and only really value the opinions of their whales :(

I tweeted this to Todd which btw is something he reads a lot that everyone can do.

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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8 hours ago, Badwolfe said:

Why does it need to go there? I think its good that everyone can see it and discuss it. Your comment comes across as ACE ignores the majority of their own forums and only really value the opinions of their whales :(

Because humans miss things that are not brought to their attention, and ACE, and more specifically Todd, makes more of a point of reading and responding to every thread in the dev partners and the general forums don't get the same exposure.

Considering that "Crows of a Feather" is a grab bag of random topics and threads, you can hardly expect them to read every thread in here.  

ACE doesn't ignore their own forums, but upper management is incredibly busy, too busy to read every post and topic, and have been more than happy with some of us filtering and bringing to their attention things that do go on in the more general forums in the dev partners.  That's sort of our job, and responsibility, as dev partners, to make sure they don't miss things. It's not about our voices being more "important" so much as it's about us helping them find the really important things in the public forums, so they don't have to waste time, and probably miss important things,  sifting through pages and pages of argument looking for the real issues..

If it's an important issue, and it very much is, then these types of examples should be at least copied in there.  In fact, there is already a thread going about the issue of damage inflation that has shown up because of accelerated training and gear that ACE has engaged in, and this particular video would very much fit in there.  

 

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Krakken as far as I'm aware the Development Partner and Investor status is an entitlement you obtain by investing in ACE financially. I believe it gives you access to insider information regarding development. I don't remember reading anywhere it grants you some sort of 'go between' responsibility on the forums. Not taking issue or anything but there are many people on here who are excellent testers without the need of this go between service and are capable of making sure their point gets to where it needs to go.

The written word can and often is misinterpreted from its actual intent 

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On 3/12/2018 at 2:44 PM, Badwolfe said:

Krakken as far as I'm aware the Development Partner and Investor status is an entitlement you obtain by investing in ACE financially. I believe it gives you access to insider information regarding development. I don't remember reading anywhere it grants you some sort of 'go between' responsibility on the forums. Not taking issue or anything but there are many people on here who are excellent testers without the need of this go between service and are capable of making sure their point gets to where it needs to go.

The written word can and often is misinterpreted from its actual intent 

You're right, but it's a responsibility that many of the people with that entitlement have taken upon themselves, and the dev team has reliably treated that forum in the way KrakkenSmacken described for what are most likely exactly the reasons he described.

Additionally, you may note he's one of the Development Partners and Investors, so as a general rule, taking his word on what happens in those forums is wise, especially considering that there's been a litany of evidence of it littered throughout the forums before his clarification, as well as on livestreams and in the youtube videos Crowfall's devs have posted.

Much like Crowfall relies (in part) on the players who want to see their vision translated into a finished game to both fund and help test the game, they rely (in part) on the most active and dedicated members of the forums to pipeline the most significant issues from the forums to the dev team so they can spend more time making the game. Every hour on the clock they don't have to spend trawling the forums is an hour they can instead spend on game development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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35 minutes ago, goose said:

You're right, but it's a responsibility that many of the people with that entitlement have taken upon themselves, and the dev team has reliably treated that forum in the way KrakkenSmacken described for what are most likely exactly the reasons he described.

Additionally, you may note he's one of the Development Partners and Investors, so as a general rule, taking his word on what happens in those forums is wise, especially considering that there's been a litany of evidence of it littered throughout the forums before his clarification, as well as on livestreams and in the youtube videos Crowfall's devs have posted.

Much like Crowfall relies (in part) on the players who want to see their vision translated into a finished game to both fund and help test the game, they rely (in part) on the most active and dedicated members of the forums to pipeline the most significant issues from the forums to the dev team so they can spend more time making the game. Every hour on the clock they don't have to spend trawling the forums is an hour they can instead spend on game development.

I understand all that goose but my points still stand.

Just because someone invests large amounts of money into a game doesn't make them any more of a dedicated or active tester than someone who simply hasn't got the extra disposable income to invest in a game - they simply have the opportunity to test newer builds earlier which gives that illusion. There are many investors on here who pop up only when a new build is announced and then quickly disappear till the next one and there are those who stick around and contribute long before they have access to test.

A lot of people who have the partner status have simply done so for extra goodies once the game releases or simply to try things as soon as they become available - they have little or no interest in actual testing.

ACE has done nothing different or wrong to what any other modern day MMO's now tends to do - this game is a business after all and they need the money to develop the game but I can't help but feel that testing nowadays is not of the quality it was back in the day when testers were invited to test based on their past experience testing and not on the size of their wallet. I would go as far as to say the modern practices have actually been detrimental to development because when people have a larger investment in a game they feel they have more entitlement to push for changes that suit them personally rather than what suits the game overall.

TL;DR - having a higher financial investment doesn't make a tester more dedicated / active / important it just gives more opportunities and implying otherwise on the forums is not good for overall community relations :)

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16 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

I understand all that goose but my points still stand.

Just because someone invests large amounts of money into a game doesn't make them any more of a dedicated or active tester than someone who simply hasn't got the extra disposable income to invest in a game - they simply have the opportunity to test newer builds earlier which gives that illusion. There are many investors on here who pop up only when a new build is announced and then quickly disappear till the next one and there are those who stick around and contribute long before they have access to test.

A lot of people who have the partner status have simply done so for extra goodies once the game releases or simply to try things as soon as they become available - they have little or no interest in actual testing.

ACE has done nothing different or wrong to what any other modern day MMO's now tends to do - this game is a business after all and they need the money to develop the game but I can't help but feel that testing nowadays is not of the quality it was back in the day when testers were invited to test based on their past experience testing and not on the size of their wallet. I would go as far as to say the modern practices have actually been detrimental to development because when people have a larger investment in a game they feel they have more entitlement to push for changes that suit them personally rather than what suits the game overall.

TL;DR - having a higher financial investment doesn't make a tester more dedicated / active / important it just gives more opportunities and implying otherwise on the forums is not good for overall community relations :)

I don't entirely disagree with you, but in the end they have to draw a line somewhere, and while some kind of merit-based ambassadorship system might have been a good idea early on, there are some inherent issues with such a system, too.

For one thing, being active and helpful on the forums doesn't mean you're going to stick around. I make an excellent example (well, for being active and then disappearing, if maybe not for being helpful - matter of opinion). On the other hand, the kind of monetary investment required to be a partner generally necessitates either a group effort or an actual interest in *investing* in the game, either of which is much more likely to ensure continued interest that would lead to someone regularly checking in and cause them to be an active participant. I know some of the partners are guild leaders representing variably large groups of people who each have a personal and monetary stake in the game's success, and as such don't really fit the traditional definition of a "whale," despite their monetary contribution. I am also aware that this may not have been an intended consequence of the partner forums, but it stands to reason that it was. After all, they were included as a Kickstarter reward way back when, and were the primary perk of that particular monetary benchmark, so it follows that people with both the funds (either individual or collective) AND interest would aim specifically to spend that much.

For another thing, deciding who qualifies for such a merit-based ambassadorship would still require that the devs spend time a lot of time in the forums on the clock, or else outsource it to the community, which would still raise the same issues ad infinitum. Sure, having someone whose job is *just* to interface with the community might be a wise choice in the future, but for the majority of early development time, having someone dedicated to that job is adding a salary to the payroll that doesn't get the game finished any faster, and on a fixed budget that's a hard sell.

That said, how the dev team handles community engagement this far into development, at a stage when most video game developers have literally zero community engagement, should probably be viewed like the rest of the game: not as a launch product, but as a work in progress. In that regard, I agree that later on a more open approach to community discussion would be helpful, but that seems like a problem for Future Blair and Future Todd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I don't disagree with anything you say goose and neither am I knocking the investor scheme. I was just pointing out that people need to be careful on how they word things and not to make claims that are not necessarily 100% accurate.

Like I said monetary investment is in no way an indication on a persons ability to test and neither should these people also infer, intentionally or not, that their opinions matter more to the developers than others. Its a very dangerous road to travel down not only in terms of relationships within the community but also gives people the impression that ACE employs certain practices and policies when in fact they do not.

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You are WAY over glorifying The Development Partner forum.  I cannot go into detail about what is in the Forum but be assured your getting as much exposure to the dev's as we are.  Just post your thoughts and concerns and the proper place, ie bug reports in proper testing section etc..... WE are not changing the vision of the game nor are WE getting some type of special treatment

The forum is more of a reward for early high dollar backers.  If i had to do it over again, I would NOT have bought such a high package.  I would have spent same money, but on more smaller accounts. 

If you want more recognition, test the game and post results. share info and maintain a good standing in the community.  Eventually people take notice to that.  Don't be negative and work hard for the development team.  Try to offer solutions with complaints.  Not everything has to be a problem or complaint either.  Remember this game is still being developed.  Do get hung up on game balance issues yet.  I remember when the Confessor was a god char.  

Have fun and shoot straight!!

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