Anhrez

Not all training paths are equal or even equitable

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As we see more and more iterations from the Crofwfall team we see the impact of Experimental Pips, the base Experimentation stat and Assembly Success. Pips and the Experimentation stat gives the crafter the ability to push the output stats on a craft and allow them to (on average ... but yes the lucky YOLO's do annoy me)  separate their effort from a less trained crafter. Assembly has become even more important as bootstrapping adds a complexity that can have negative consequences to a crafters output and can be mitigated by having a higher Assembly stat.

My current 'rub' with the crafting Skill training is we have to follow to get to our desired Profession.  Why is Leatherworking and Jewelcrafting behind the least valuable Basic training path?  Now ... maybe someone can explain how desperately I want Crafting speed? But to date? Its far less valuable than training down the other two paths. The crafting Basics tree does not need a 50% to move on, and getting to the "open recipes" is so vital for a crafter ... why would you waste nearly 6 days to get it unless you had too? 

The 6 days needed to get Pips or Experimentation Stats or Assembly stats eventually roll up to extra impact in your crafting of non-basics, and I know Speed could help but it feels Far Far less useful as a training path. 

(my math could be wrong but should be generically close) 

So you are a crafter with 14 days 22 hours and 29 minutes in the Skill training window? What do you have based on your training path choices?

  • If you went RuneCrafting or Necromancy you have:  Have the basic recipes you have the starter recipes for which ever Prof you selected and you increased you Experimentation success better than any other crafter who has not chosen these professions at this point in training time
  • If you went Alchemy you have: Have the basic recipes you have the starter recipes  Alchemy and you have more Experimentation Pips to spend than any other crafter who has not chosen Alchemy at this point in training time
  • If you went Stone Masonry, Woodcraft or Blacksmithing you have: Have the basic recipes you have the starter recipes for which over Prof you selected and you increased you Assembly success better than any other crafter who has not chosen these professions at this point in training time

but .. Leatherworking and Jewelcrafting ? you get speed. So with the current mechanisms I could be just getting faster to Failed Assembly or faster to Critical Failure or faster to less pip rolls? 

Some could say "well you can go back and grab them" and to that I say sure that is absolutely true ... but Speed currently has the least impact so those that are forced to go that path first are at a significant disadvantage for spending their training time to maximize their crafting impact for their guild and themselves (imho)  

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Is the problem that crafting is so fast that you don't care about speed?

I suppose that could be fixed by slowing crafting down. ;)

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Jah said:

Is the problem that crafting is so fast that you don't care about speed?

I suppose that could be fixed by slowing crafting down. ;)

 Crafting speed means something yes but my comment was about its measure versus the other 3 stats.

Once you blue print and setup a factory for the sub components you are are taking out a significant amount of the 'time'  of a build and therefore your speed skill has far less impact.

If you take awesome factory created sub-components (maybe some amazing bars, or some amazing Stitched leather)  to then create a custom a Weapon for Jah's specific needs, you are still leveraging the other 3 stats on the last 1-2 steps of the craft but the overall impact of time/speed is far lessened as I am using 8 Bars from my factory not 8 bars I created one at a time.  Speed has value from what i have seen so far. but it feels less then the other three basic crafting stat paths. 

Edited by Anhrez

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The basics are supposed to be just that. Basics. Learning a system and its foundational base. 

We start off with specialist training in the basics. Going down a singular line towards a goal. Making it basically, not the basics.

Each one of those lines should be interspersed with the others. But then you have numbers that are too small to be noticed. And a number than once you get all of them is useful but underwhelming. 

It makes for a difficult choice to the dev, and doesn't make sense for the players due to them not being at all balanced. 

What would help would be a larger number for the foundational aspect of the basics. Where each node had multiple small effects on the basic skill that added up once you cross trained into a large effect on all of the individual skills. You could do this by reducing the large 25 point bonus to skill at the end node. And move those points into the gathering of the preceding nodes. And then do something else for Mastering the basics. Like the final node would give protection for failed assemblies of the specialist nodes. 

It would be a welcome addition to skill out of the 1 on the d20 failures no matter how skilled you are. If the final node of basics would grant 50% immunity to grey white and green combine assembly failures of the advanced crafting it would be VERY valuable to pure crafters.  If in the advanced crafts the mastery node of an individual line would then add to that so that as they got the 5th pip of the corresponding training they would become immune to assembly failures of that line and quality level it would be even more valuable. 

You get more training you avoid the failures. With mastery of the basics and mastery of the individual quality levels you skill out of any flat out failures, and lessen the chances for the roll of the base success and moderate successes. 

If you skimp on the training of the pattern and skill lines and get the pips and experimentation first then it is of course more risky and the failures happen like the do now. 

The whole point of all of this is the crafting system now just feels much too much randomness. With no way to stop the  YOU LOSE GOOD DAY SIR rolls it feels much more like gambling than a progression of skill. 

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Posted (edited)

i'm suprised you didn't raise this point:

jewelcrafting has a small number of recipes which revolve around rare/high value "one off crafting" - e.g. from mothernode only gems - rather than say churning out 100 metal bars....

so whoopdeedoo speed ;p

the arrangement also "clumps" access to multiple crafts as well [of varying usefullness!]

Edited by Tinnis

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1 hour ago, Anhrez said:

 Crafting speed means something yes but my comment was about its measure versus the other 3 stats.

Well, if Crafting Speed were to become more important, wouldn't that change its measure against the other 3 stats?

I expect it will matter more later.

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I've advocated before to have every line have 3 different basic crafting stats on the way to the professions...   spread it out because the stats are not equal in value or rather crafting speed alone just isn't as valuable to have early on as the other 3.

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Crafting in general needs looking at.

A Blacksmith can craft a one handed weapon and only need 3 hides made into stitched leather from a leather worker.

A woodworker wishing to craft a one handed book needs components from a blacksmith, a rune maker and a leather worker and currently contains 2.5 times more metal than it does wood.  Crafting is currently riddled with imbalances :(

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1 minute ago, Badwolfe said:

Crafting in general needs looking at.

A Blacksmith can craft a one handed weapon and only need 3 hides made into stitched leather from a leather worker.

A woodworker wishing to craft a one handed book needs components from a blacksmith, a rune maker and a leather worker and currently contains 2.5 times more metal than it does wood.  Crafting is currently riddled with imbalances :(

I am opposed to trying to make these things all work the same in the interest of "fairness."

If you think Blacksmith is the better profession then be one.

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Just now, Jah said:

I am opposed to trying to make these things all work the same in the interest of "fairness."

If you think Blacksmith is the better profession then be one.

No wish to be either to be honest - was just giving another example of current imbalances. Imbalance never eventually proves to be a good thing no matter how you try to justify it :) 

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35 minutes ago, Badwolfe said:

Imbalance never eventually proves to be a good thing no matter how you try to justify it :) 

I disagree. An obsession with balance has the tendency to strip the flavor out of a game.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Badwolfe said:

Crafting in general needs looking at.

A Blacksmith can craft a one handed weapon and only need 3 hides made into stitched leather from a leather worker.

A woodworker wishing to craft a one handed book needs components from a blacksmith, a rune maker and a leather worker and currently contains 2.5 times more metal than it does wood.  Crafting is currently riddled with imbalances :(

 

Having the tomes be in woordworking seems odd to me now that you mention it, aside from the ridiculous metal/wood ratio even.

Feels like it should be in rune making as they're the closest thing to the "scribes" of the crafting professions. I mean I know paper is made of wood and all, and staves seem to make sense (its just a stick with magic bits stuck in it, and the woodworker is mostly making the stick) but its a little tough to believe that the guy that makes bows also binds and scribes a magic book used to light people on fire.

Edited by PopeUrban

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4 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Feels like it should be in rune making as they're the closest thing to the "scribes" of the crafting professions. I mean I know paper is made of wood and all, and staves seem to make sense (its just a stick with magic bits stuck in it, and the woodworker is mostly making the stick) but its a little tough to believe that the guy that makes bows also binds and scribes a magic book used to light people on fire.

Rune Crafters do make the Sigils for a book.

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1 hour ago, Badwolfe said:

No wish to be either to be honest - was just giving another example of current imbalances. Imbalance never eventually proves to be a good thing no matter how you try to justify it :) 

Bows as a combat weapon are not balanced with one-handed swords. One could easily argue that bows are far more powerful and useful. Why should crafting either of these weapons be balanced or equivalent when the output of said crafting is inherently not balanced?

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8 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Having the tomes be in woordworking seems odd to me now that you mention it, aside from the ridiculous metal/wood ratio even.

The boards, covers and paper are made from wood.  The majority of a book comes from a tree.

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2 minutes ago, Zolaz said:

The boards, covers and paper are made from wood.  The majority of a book comes from a tree.

Currently the majority of a book comes from a rock actually. Just thinking about it, if someone were to just ask me "hey which one of these crafters makes magic books" I'd say "probably the magic guy, with paper from the wood guy"

I don't really care all that much, I just hadn't thought about it until now and it seems weird when I think about it.

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9 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Currently the majority of a book comes from a rock actually. Just thinking about it, if someone were to just ask me "hey which one of these crafters makes magic books" I'd say "probably the magic guy, with paper from the wood guy"

I don't really care all that much, I just hadn't thought about it until now and it seems weird when I think about it.

Are you talking about a magic book and sigils?  The only thing I can think of is that you need a bunch of rocks to make some weird kind of ink.

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1 minute ago, Zolaz said:

Are you talking about a magic book and sigils?  The only thing I can think of is that you need a bunch of rocks to make some weird kind of ink.

Talking about the fact that it takes 45 ore but only 18 wood to make a book. The majority of raw materials used in a book is metal/stone rather than wood/leather, strange as that is.

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3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

 

Having the tomes be in woordworking seems odd to me now that you mention it, aside from the ridiculous metal/wood ratio even.

Feels like it should be in rune making as they're the closest thing to the "scribes" of the crafting professions. I mean I know paper is made of wood and all, and staves seem to make sense (its just a stick with magic bits stuck in it, and the woodworker is mostly making the stick) but its a little tough to believe that the guy that makes bows also binds and scribes a magic book used to light people on fire.

None of it makes sense Pope as runes are more traditionally carved on wood and stone - yet metal is again used a lot in rune making. Hence why I said the whole crafting lines need a new pass. Plenty of time yet to get stuff like this sorted but right now most of the craft lines are out of whack in terms of what they craft and resources / resource amounts

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On 3/12/2018 at 12:26 PM, srathor said:

The whole point of all of this is the crafting system now just feels much too much randomness. With no way to stop the  YOU LOSE GOOD DAY SIR rolls it feels much more like gambling than a progression of skill. 

EVERYTHING and i do mean EVERYTHING that has been done in the state of crafting has been to increase random gambling and to lower skill.

the only exception that I have seen is in the choosing of the material.

the only way to actually correct this would be to remove experimentation and replace it with concentration. the crafter is concentrating on a stat that they desire. be it damage , durability , or a direct stat. this in turn can be a skill or a suite of skills that can be expanded on over time by the crafter.

also of note. the methodology we are currently seeing is "quality over quantity". my educated guess is that this will remain true and consistent. there is not , nor do I expecct to see a viable business model where trying to sell as much cheap ammo as possible will make crafting speed anything but a dead skill that your forced to take.

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