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Equality In Gaming - Gamergate

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Listen, Seven Bacons, I understand what you're trying to prove here, but it's not working. As Sheen has stated, as long as some women profit from sexism, there will never be this equality you speak of.

 

But like you Seventh Pig, I'm trying to make changes. For the past couple of months, I've stopped going down to Portland to visit their many strip clubs.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Don't you know those girls are just trying to make a buck and support themselves? Get you to the nearest strip club post haste!


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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I think you don't understand that as long as there are women out there who would like to enjoy the perks of sexism, there will be ones out there suffering from the other facets of sexism.

This argument is apologistic. It is not women's fault there is sexism, men need to take primary responsibility. You can see similar types of arguments surrounding the blame of:

1. Financially poor people for poverty (see: meritocracy fallacy and welfare abuse arguments)

2. Black people in America for racism toward blacks (see: false generalizations of "thuggery" - a racialized word, versus mentally unstable white school shooters),

3. Women for sexual assault and caress [i did not type caress and am embarrassed and offended by the moderators implementing an autocorrect from the word I typed] (see: "she was asking for it with that dress")

 

The problem with such an argument is, regardless of moral tenuousness, it misses the systematic causes of the issue and primarily focuses on correlation and circumvents the more serious problem by focusing on another outcome of the same cause.

 

For your argument, both the perceived (mostly false, according to research) benefits of sexism and the negatives of sexism have the same root cause - you identified it as sexism (primarily men to women sexism).

 

For my other examples,

1. The root cause of poverty cannot possibly be poor people. Often people make this argument with the justification that poverty is determined by effort, rather than identifying that meritocracy does not exist and that poverty is the primary causal link toward educational success in the current system, and educational success in the current system is the best predictor of financial success in the current system. Poor in the system -> harder to succeed in the system's measure of future success in the system -> cycle of poverty. It is determinism at its worst mediated through a deterministic education system.

2. Underscored by media coverage of such tragedies and atrocities committed by whites in America, versus people of other races.

3. Underscored by a caress [again, not caress] culture and most directly related to sexism, though all of these views belong to the same worldview.

 

I encourage you not to take my word for it or discount what I typed on its face, but to research and, most importantly, read about these very serious issues from authors with whom you do not typically interact (to avoid a false consensus bias or confirmation bias)

 

Cheers!

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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This argument is apologistic. It is not women's fault there is sexism, men need to take primary responsibility.

 

Just because an opportunity presents itself, does not mean you have to take advantage of it. Men can take the responsibility, but it won't change the porn industry.

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This argument is apologistic. It is not women's fault there is sexism, men need to take primary responsibility. You can see similar types of arguments surrounding the blame of:

1. Financially poor people for poverty (see: meritocracy fallacy and welfare abuse arguments)

2. Black people in America for racism toward blacks (see: false generalizations of "thuggery" - a racialized word, versus mentally unstable white school shooters),

3. Women for sexual assault and caress [i did not type caress and am embarrassed and offended by the moderators implementing an autocorrect from the word I typed] (see: "she was asking for it with that dress")

 

The problem with such an argument is, regardless of moral tenuousness, it misses the systematic causes of the issue and primarily focuses on correlation and circumvents the more serious problem by focusing on another outcome of the same cause.

 

For your argument, both the perceived (mostly false, according to research) benefits of sexism and the negatives of sexism have the same root cause - you identified it as sexism (primarily men to women sexism).

 

For my other examples,

1. The root cause of poverty cannot possibly be poor people. Often people make this argument with the justification that poverty is determined by effort, rather than identifying that meritocracy does not exist and that poverty is the primary causal link toward educational success in the current system, and educational success in the current system is the best predictor of financial success in the current system. Poor in the system -> harder to succeed in the system's measure of future success in the system -> cycle of poverty. It is determinism at its worst mediated through a deterministic education system.

2. Underscored by media coverage of such tragedies and atrocities committed by whites in America, versus people of other races.

3. Underscored by a caress culture and most directly related to sexism, though all of these views belong to the same worldview.

 

I encourage you not to take my word for it or discount what I typed on its face, but to research and, most importantly, read about these very serious issues from authors with whom you do not typically interact (to avoid a false consensus bias or confirmation bias)

 

Cheers!

Your points are flawed because in regards to sexism there are a significant amount of women who are looking for the benefits of sexism.  Those same expectations that some women might find disrespectful are the expectations another woman might wish to benefit from.  Same expectation, same root, different results for different people.

 

Everyone is responsible men are not more responsible than women.  They both play their part.  If there were zero women wanting perks just for being a woman, there would be less animosity towards women and that stereotype wouldn't exist.

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How many men are expected by their women to lavish the lady on valentine's day?  That contributes to societal expectations of men and women ultimately helping to contribute to things like sexism. 

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Your points are flawed because in regards to sexism there are a significant amount of women who are looking for the benefits of sexism.  Those same expectations that some women might find disrespectful are the expectations another woman might wish to benefit from.  Same expectation, same root, different results for different people.

 

Everyone is responsible men are not more responsible than women.  They both play their part.  If there were zero women wanting perks just for being a woman, there would be less animosity towards women and that stereotype wouldn't exist.

I do not admit your premise, but for argument's sake I'll assume it and pose a question.

 

What stops sexism?

1. Zero women wanting perks, or

2. Men not treating women differently based solely on their sex.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I do not admit your premise, but for argument's sake I'll assume it and pose a question.

 

What stops sexism?

1. Zero women wanting perks, or

2. Men not treating women differently based solely on their sex.

You need both not one or the other. 

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Just because an opportunity presents itself, does not mean you have to take advantage of it. Men can take the responsibility, but it won't change the porn industry.

An interesting point, though I separate sexism and pornography in my worldview.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Your points are flawed because in regards to sexism there are a significant amount of women who are looking for the benefits of sexism.  Those same expectations that some women might find disrespectful are the expectations another woman might wish to benefit from.  Same expectation, same root, different results for different people.

 

Everyone is responsible men are not more responsible than women.  They both play their part.  If there were zero women wanting perks just for being a woman, there would be less animosity towards women and that stereotype wouldn't exist.

 

If your main position is that sexism is justified because there are a significant amount of women who want to be discrimated against, then I would say the ground you stand on is shaky at best.  There are women who take advantage of the men who treat women in a sexist manner, but that is not justification for sexism.

Edited by valor

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2. Men not treating women differently based solely on their sex.

Why shouldn't men treat women differently because of their sex? Isn't it unjust to have the same expectations of people with very different qualities?


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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If your main position is that sexism is justified because there are a significant amount of women who want to be discrimated against, then I would say the ground you stand on is shaky at best.  There are women who take advantage of the men who treat women in a sexist manner, but that is not justification for sexism.

He's not saying that sexism is justified because of that he is saying sexism exists because of multiple factors combined.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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If your main position is that sexism is justified because there are a significant amount of women who want to be discrimated against, then I would say the ground you stand on is shaky at best.  There are women who take advantage of the men who treat women in a sexist, but that is not justification for sexism.

Depends what you mean by justified.  I think those reasons justify why it exists, I don't believe sexism should exist in an ideal world though.

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I disagree, but appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion. Which do you deem more important?

Neither is more important, they both need to happen for the problem to be significantly resolved. 

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Is this still alive and kicking? I thought we'd run the full gamut.

 

I take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm rarely a victim. I don't and won't allow myself to be a victim.

I note any sleazy comments from individuals. If ever, and I mean IF ever they were to stalk me and persist then I would take further measures.

I've honestly never encountered serious attacks directed personally at me, and I've been a gamer for a very long time.

If a male wants to be a basement dweller pretending to be in a neanderthal cave, I'm happy to leave the miserable sod rot in his own stinking, lonely existence.

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Why shouldn't men treat women differently because of their sex? Isn't it unjust to have the same expectations of people with very different qualities?

This is a great question and gets closer to a critical worldview, thank you for asking it. I posed that question solely as a thought experiment.

 

I suggest, however, that you can reflect on your question by asking if knowing somebody's sex only affords you knowledge of that person's "very different qualities."


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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This is a great question and gets closer to a critical worldview, thank you for asking it. I posed that question solely as a thought experiment.

 

I suggest, however, that you can reflect on your question by asking if knowing somebody's sex only affords you knowledge of that person's "very different qualities."

Whether it's sex itself that plays a role or the way environment will impose upon someone based on sex you can see certain trends in psychology based on sex as well.  Just one of the many variables in the equation of what makes people behave the way they do.

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Depends what you mean by justified.  I think those reasons justify why it exists, I don't believe sexism should exist in an ideal world though.

 

Discrimination is not justifiable, and when we try to justify it, we are simply making excuses for it, which enables its existence.

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Whether it's sex itself that plays a role or the way environment will impose upon someone based on sex you can see certain trends in psychology based on sex as well. Just one of the many variables in the equation of what makes people behave the way they do.

Thanks for your post, I study psychology. Can you elaborate on "environment will impose upon" please? I want to understand you better.

 

Edit: for clarity, I actually was thanking you. When I reread this, I thought it might have sounded sarcastic or condescending and did not mean that tone.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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This is a great question and gets closer to a critical worldview, thank you for asking it. I posed that question solely as a thought experiment.

 

I suggest, however, that you can reflect on your question by asking if knowing somebody's sex only affords you knowledge of that person's "very different qualities."

Whether it's sex itself that plays a role or the way environment will impose upon someone based on sex you can see certain trends in psychology based on sex as well.  Just one of the many variables in the equation of what makes people behave the way they do.

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