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Suggestion For A Realistic And Meaningful In Game Society(Player-Driven Change,trade,crafting,government,food,pvp,minting)

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ye you mention an interesting point im kinda dissatisfied when i look how it is planned for the game,namely the fixed maps of every world with it's fixed and permanent points of interest.


update points of interest:


Even if the map is open for exploration,there shouldn't be fixed and permanent points of interest,neither strategic points nor economical points.


Give the players the chance to not just explore an unknown map,but also let them discern between valuable places,that are worth operating and fortifying in an organized manner. and places that aren't.


If there is a region that has high amount of a certain valuable resource at practically all times,because the coded probabilities for that region make it so,the players will be able to see that and they will adapt to it and make use of it,they will maybe make little camps for storage there and before you know it,you got something like a town,not because someone said,settle there,but because of the collective sum of individual strives for profits.everything else,like governing body and such will just develop naturally because a need arises to establish it,not because its the goal per se.


and with the strategic ones the same.

there will be people with strategical and tactical talent,combined with topographical knowledge of the map.

so they have all abilities they need to discern between places that are worth fortifying in an extreme manner(which should be rather costly and work intensive) and places that aren't worth it,because it wouldn't bring any kind of noteworthy advantage in a war.


of course this points of interest will change,like everything else should,over time,as old problems and needs are solved and satisfied and new problems and needs arise.



what would be an economical point of interest?

well any kind of accumulated resource,but even more so if its a resource with high demand.

and with the probability calculation of resource spawn it would even be possible for such formerly rich deposits to deplete.

lets assume,there is a 30% chance/Voxel for iron ore to spawn,preferable in all 3 dimensions,in a district of a region thats a mountain or something like that.


so we can roughly estimate that 1/3 of this mountain will be made out of iron at all times,since the probability for the district won't change in the course of the game.

But if you remember i also mentioned that the probability should the increased if there is a resource in an adjacent Voxel,so in fact there will probably be much more than just 1/3 of ore.

but in return it would be actually possible for formerly rich mines to deplete,because every iron voxel was harvested so less iron is respawned and over time,if you repeat that process several times,the amount of iron in that district will regress more and more until its not worth operating it anymore,considering the fixed costs and other factors.


and to come back to your specific suggestion,i don't think its a problem to do it like you suggested,can't even imagine that it would be hard to program such a thing and can't imagine any bad effects form it

Edited by kampfbock

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Update on currency:


what i've seen in other threads there are 2 major problems people are concerned when we talk about a finite amount of money that is generated by crafting money.


1. problem:


first one is the basic value of money,or generally any good,before there is something modifying that value,like supply and demand.

that basic value of a good is determined by plain usefulness.

any good we could barter with,has a practical use and thus got a base value,which is later modified by supply and demand.

money doesn't have such a basic value,since it has no use per se,you can't eat it and fight your hunger,nor can you use it to craft anything thats would help you sustain your life in the long run,its just coins.

when there is the possibility to just trade goods and services directly there is no use for something as money.

But why did humankind even develop the concept of money then?

Well the reason for that is,money got some major advantages over any other good.


One is the matter of transport,you can transport much more money than you can transport pigs,stones,wood and so on.

if we have a weighed based inventory,which would be crucial overall to stimulate the use of caravans,money should be the only weightless good.


the second is a matter of cost efficiency,to explain it properly an easy example:

lets assume i raise pigs,i'll need a plot of land to raise them on,so that requires rent,i also need to build and sustain a barn and i also have to sustain the pigs(food,water),so i've got a lot of permanent costs.whereas the amount of money i got is just the amount of money i got,it's easy to calculate your ''profit and loss account''.


last major advantage of money over other goods is the expiration date of any other good than money.

lets continue our pig farm example:

so i have raised my pigs and it costed me quite a lot thus far to bring them up,but anyway i can sell them for a reasonable price,which i calculated over profit and loss calculation(everyone learns that poorly made socks in school,heck if you think logically you can come up with that calculation by yourself,or use google-sensei),and ensures my price is still competitive.

But at the end some of my pigs died before i was able to trade them for anything.

those pigs would have caused permanent costs over a long time and in the end they didn't just bring you no profit,they didn't even cover for their caused costs.

well of course that doenst mean an overall loss,since you can cover those costs with your profits from the trade of other goods,but its still less profit and its not a really reliable form of income,since you can't plan things accurately.and this gets even worse because the good you traded your pigs for also got an expiration date and may also cause permanent costs.

this makes planning a business in the long run nearly impossible,since the overall income can vary greatly because of that.


living things would obviously die from hunger,thirst and eventually death by aging.

ores and ore related goods would corrode,maybe there could also exist alloys which are resistant to corrosion to a certain extend.

wood would have a long durability,but should be heavier,maybe different types of wood,some lighter but with less durability and some heavier but longer durability.

stone should have no expiration date,but is in turn really heavy.


if you want to know about any man-made good produced out of any resource,take a look at my 2. post in this threat,it's about the sustainability of things.



these are the major advantages i was speaking of,that only money has and that would give it a base value,because it has it's unique usefulness,like any other good has.


but this is still not enough,since this was only the first and most basic problem.



2. problem:


teh second problem is the flow of money and i think the answer is rather easy.

the game needs to enable the simulation of the money circle.

we need 3-4 parties for that to work.

first party is someone harnessing gold/silver in an organized manner and thus is able to provide a more or less stable amount of gold/silver to mint into coins.

the one minting them is the second party needed,it should be the governing body of a state,but it could also be possible for the state to take the role of the 1. party,thats why i wrote 3-4 parties above.

the next party are the players that take the role of the financial sector aka the banks.

they would keep an eye on the flow of money,the amount harnessed and minted,keep money safely storaged(craftable vaults),give out loans to promising businesses and generating profits for themselves and for their investors via interest rates for loans.

and the last party is the sum of all players,that storage their money in a bank,take loans and pay them back+interest.


combine this with an initial amount of money,owned by the few basic NPCs that exist and little amounts of gold dropped by humanoid mobs, would help to start up the flow of money right from start,without the immediate need to supply the players with minted gold.


since this topic is rather complex i don't claim to have solved all the problems,there may be more problems coming with such a system that i haven't thought about yet,but i think its a good point to further think about it and maybe develop a useable system in the future

Edited by kampfbock

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this is a summery of more or less everything important,still i highly suggest reading through that wall of text,for better understanding of these points


Intro :

  • The lack of changes in virtual worlds prevent the blossoming of virtual societies
  • Societies have their own economic system and values
  • Economy : possibilities for the individuals to improve their quality of existence
  • The lack of resources, rules and regulations is crucial
  • Sedentarity is the result of resources abundance
  • Civilizations eventually hit a wall : lack of resources, products and expension
  • Solutions to break the wall : trade or go to war with neighbours
  • Trade consequences : specialization, exchange of resources, products and services (equilibrates lack / excess)
  • War consequences : manpower, weapons, resources, crafting, supply chain


Resources :

  • Different resources for each region
  • Resources dispersal based on probability
  • The area around an existing concentration of resources has an higher chance of spawning this resource : forest, gold vein, etc.
  • Early game abundance of resources to stimulate the civilization growth
  • People gather in the best areas of the map : Nil-Delta scenario
  • Crafters will have to consider the possibility to learn to craft items for long-term benefits as opposed to those who look for immediate profit
  • New needs for resources, goods and services will arise, and players will head to harsh areas : wild animals, few fertile lands, low water supply
  • Rarer resources will be found in harsher environments
  • Dangerous supply routes for new settlements : caravans, soldiers, etc.


Laws, Good and Evil :

  • Government has to implement their own laws and morals
  • Consequences to those who break the rules : bounties, jail, property confiscation, banishment from territorie, etc.
  • Laws enforcers : emerging PvP type (Good vs. Evil)
  • Economy motivates laws : thieft, murder, etc.


Crafting :

  • to sustain crafted things has to be a need,to prevent stagnation of a community and motivate individuals to further expand
  • Economic system encouraging the specialization (crafting branches)
  • Crafting based on trial and error
  • Crafting to be hard : crafters must become skilled
  • Recipes would be written after the trial and error process and after the crafter find the good recipe
  • After the crafter discovers how to create the specific item, he can write on a paper what is the recipe
  • The paper can be copied and sold
  • All the crafting systemto be based on probabilities
  • Each item can be fragmented in smaller pieces
  • Each piece of item has its own recipe
  • Two crafters with equal skills trying to craft the same sword can end up with different types of sword : depends on probabilities


Physical Presence :

  • The transport of every objects have to be realistic : caravans for items, letters, resources, etc.
  • The information must also circulate realistically : regional auction house and banks


Trade and Finance :

  • Money shouldn't suffer from weight or expiration like other resources
  • All money to be realistically generated : resources transformed into coins
  • The supply and demand will naturally lead to inflation and deflation of the currencies
  • Bartering : Services for resources, resources for coins, etc. (everything is tradable)
  • The government of a territory decides the tax rate and how they apply it in every economic spheres
  • Taxes on goods, services and resources transactions
  • Deadlines have to be respected for the payment of the taxes : can be paid with coins, goods, services or resources
  • Different taxes applied on different economic activities will influence players' decisions
  • Government to decide how it wants to be paid
  • Quest like system to be used for loans, contracts, debts and taxes
  • Consequences of unpaid debts : PvP target even in safe zones
  • Tax competition between nations and fees competition between shops will lead to tax and price drops
  • Creation of shopers organizations to prevent price drop
  • Thugs, thieves and saboteurs to be used to convince others to cooperate
Edited by kampfbock

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to make it even shorter i'll boil it down to the quint-essence of my posts.


the base motivation for anything is the will to survive,not to become more power.


i don't like to see conquering just for conquering sakes,becoming stronger just because of the sake of becoming stronger in itself.


No,my point is conquering and becoming stronger because the needs more or less force you to become stronger.


lets assume im a single individual,my basic need is food,water and a safe place to sleep.


so ill build my house(place to sleep) and ill preferably build it,where there is water and fertile land,to satisfy my need for food and water.

To build this house i need materials,like wood,stone and so on.


Now i also have to sustain the things i build,because everything manmade deteriorates with time,so im forced to venture out again and find materials that don't deteriorate that fast or at least allow me to slow down the deterioration of my stuff.


Now i may have managed to build up a decent settlement,which i can easily manage to sustain.

But now some other people show up and they threaten my base of existence,so i need to further adapt to a new situation,which lets new needs arise for me.

So i'll have to change my current style of playing and living again.


''action and reaction by each individual,driven by the need to sustain your own existence.''


furthermore regarding communities and any kind of organization.

i wouldn't like to see communities forming,just for the sake of forming communities.

Big cities,the pinnacle of every great civilization,didn't form and became so big,because someone said to do so....

no they formed and grew because a lot of individuals saw that you can live a better and more prosperous live there,that the chances of becoming successful are higher there,than at another place.


this doesn't only apply to real communities,but everything that makes use of a collective,instead of a single individual.

there should and will be collective decisions,but not because someone said that everyone else has to do something,but because the majority of the mass does is,because each single individual thinks its for the best for themselves

an easy example.

lets say the city/nation you live in goes to wars,but the reserves and supply of iron is very low,while the demand just grew drastically,because the state needs iron for weapons and fortifications.

someone who's in the miner's business,might want to focus on farming iron ore form now on,since it will probably bring a lot of profit for themselves.

so they'll venture to a lucrative spot,once there they'll see,that they weren't the only one who thought like that,but a lot of people thguht and did the same.

at the end the iron supply for the state will grow,something like a organization for the mentioned iron mine may also form and all this,not because someone said to do so,but because of the individual drive.

Of course the state could use methods to further stimulate individual motivation,by lowering taxes on the mine workers or raising taxes on business branches that arent in their interest.

thats what we describe as the ''invisible hand''.


''communities form and collective decisions are made,because of the sum of individual and egoistical motivations and executed deeds,that in the end lead to a community and a collective decision.

Edited by kampfbock

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Update on currency:


first party is someone harnessing gold/silver in an organized manner and thus is able to provide a more or less stable amount of gold/silver to mint into coins.


Why does currency have to be gold/silver?

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Why does currency have to be gold/silver?


Well it can basically be any ore,but with that it would make a currency system even more complicated,because then the worth of a coin wouldn't only be modified by supply/demand(inflation,deflation) but also by the value of the ore that was used to mint the coin.

aslong as coins,no mater which ore they are made of,don't have any weight and no deterioration,its fine.


personally i would like to have such a system,that allows to mint coins out of different ores,but i wouldn't mind not having it,if its more player friendly^^

Edited by kampfbock

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Excellent OP. One question. In a world where death is meaningless, murder is no longer our top crime. R.ape is physically impossible (we're probably not even anatomically correct). And we feel no pain from our wounds. So does property crime become the most important thing in our laws? The entire legal system, thoughts of morality and right and wrong have to be rewritten in a world with no death and where physical punishment brings no pain.

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Update on Eternal Kingdoms:


As i see it now,the existing EK concept isn't really well received within the forum community.

That is because the EK gameplay seems like nothing more than fancy type of housing,without any real meaning for the overall game.

For that reason i would like to present my suggestion here to make it more meaningful.


I mentioned a Nil-Delta scenario in this Threat,which would stimulate the early formation of communities,because this places would provide the a lot of food and water,while being located in more or less safe regions(no strong mobs).


I also said that,eventually those early towns will reach the limit of what is doable with resources surrounding them in those fertile regions,because they need resources that aren't found there,to sustain the status quo.


So this will force players to venture outside,into yet unknown regions,regions which aren't nearly as fertile,safe and diverse in resources,which will force them to develop and expand even more and so forth,its and never ending circle of adaption.


So why not make those fertile starting lands the Eternal Kingdom,and to further develop or at least sustain your state in the eternal kingdom,you would need to venture out into the other worlds,gather resources there,gather unique items or something other that could profit your state in the EK.


The point is,interaction between EK and other worlds has to be possible.

What i mean with that is,no limits to resource transformation or equipment or whatever,the EK should be the base,the center of your guild,the other worlds are there to improve your situation in EK.


And of course there needs to be some form of PvP in EK.

Maybe not direct wars between nations,like in the dying worlds,but maybe something like my aforementioned contract system.

lets assume 2 guilds form a PvP contract.

They enter a competition between them over territory in EK,whoever wins in a set campaign gets a set territory of the other party.


personally i would like to see the same kind of PvP in EK as in the dying worlds,war without declaration and the need to accept it and so on.

this would give the EK meaning,because if theres no point in owning anything in the EK to begin with,then all interaction between EK and dying worlds is no use,because the base motivation is missing.


There have to be various kinds of motivation and reasons for wanting to become strong in the EK,pvp has to be possible like in the other worlds,but as i said before i don't like the concept of doing pvp out of the sake of pvp,i prefer to have pvp,because i have an economical motivation to do pvp.

So please Dev team,if you want the EK to be more than just fancy housing,you have to make the EK gameplay center of the overall gameplay,it has to be the connecting point between all the other worlds.

The eternal kingdom has to be the reason why you do your poorly made socks,whatever it may be,in the dying worlds

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Excellent OP. One question. In a world where death is meaningless, murder is no longer our top crime. R.ape is physically impossible (we're probably not even anatomically correct). And we feel no pain from our wounds. So does property crime become the most important thing in our laws? The entire legal system, thoughts of morality and right and wrong have to be rewritten in a world with no death and where physical punishment brings no pain.


i don't really get your quetsione,your post sounds more like a statement,but if i understand it the right way lets me answer it.


i also thought about this a little,of course it would be cool to have a procreation system combined with a concept of mortality(sicknesses,lasting wounds,aging,eventually death).

This would create laws and morality,which aren't solely based on economic interest.

But come on....dont you think it goes a little too far^^

if they just implement half of what i suggested,most people would already think this is pretty crazy,but its imaginable and doable.

imagine if we would now implement such a life and death mechanic into the game....


Btw did you read the part of laws i wrote about?

because i had some examples of how laws would form in such a game

Edited by kampfbock

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